Lachie Henderson vs Jake Carlisle

[eth-dog]

Who's better? Me and a mate having an argument

 

[Monkey King]

Henderson for me. Arrived at Carlton and had to fit into a forward line under construction following Fev's departure. After a slow start, kicked 25 goals from 19 games as a 20yo CHF in his first year. Missed a chunk of preseason after having hip surgery in December and has taken a while to work into it this year, but has taken the No.1 key defender role after Jammo went down and has been getting better each week after a worrying start. His last six quarters against quality opponents in Franklin and Riewoldt have been outstanding. Henderson has the runs on the board at this stage, but he's also got a couple of years on Carlisle.

 

[eth-dog]

I'll give him Riewoldt, but Franklin murdered him iirc. Carlisle for me purely because of bias and the fact that I don't rate Hendo, and never have

 

[hoddo22]

I'll give him Riewoldt, but Franklin murdered him iirc. Carlisle for me purely because of bias and the fact that I don't rate Hendo, and never have

You will shortly.

Carlisle will be remembered in football folklore for eternity. Unfortunately it wont be for his ability.

Henderson is way ahead right now.

 

[blitzer]

I dunno I just watch Henderson and I just don't see anything special about him. He's decent in most aspects but just doesn't have any real outstanding qualities. Carlisle just has sensational hands, his marking is a real strength and positions himself very intelligently. Both are certainly capable of playing both ends though and are definitely versatile. Carlisle is several years younger and has time on his side as well. Henderson may take his game to another level but right now, I'd take Carlisle.

 

[Hipster Doofus]

I really like the look of young Carlisle............on the poster of Andy Walker's mark

Nah but seriously i think he could become a extemely solid CHB, he's certainly got the athletic abilty and the willingness to learn, i just think he needs a couple more years experince to become a fixture in the bombers 22

 

[Blueboiiz]

I think Carlisle is the better step ladder.

 

[Red Black and Blue]

I think Carlisle is the better step ladder.

Only because Henderson never plays in front

Henderson will be the better defender, plays very tight and has been unlucky to have quite a few goals kicked on him, with a couple more years experience will be up there with the better shut down defenders in the comp.

A little bias but I think Carlisle will be the better player, going to be a great swing man maybe even a permanent forward if Hooker and Pears can get their bodies right.

 

[Squida25]

Too early to call, Carlisle's only played a few games and Henderson not many more.

 

[blueborl]

I dunno I just watch Henderson and I just don't see anything special about him. He's decent in most aspects but just doesn't have any real outstanding qualities. Carlisle just has sensational hands, his marking is a real strength and positions himself very intelligently. Both are certainly capable of playing both ends though and are definitely versatile. Carlisle is several years younger and has time on his side as well. Henderson may take his game to another level but right now, I'd take Carlisle.

Carlisle several years younger? Try less than 2 years younger. Henderson
is going to be a very good player as is Carlisle. The only poblem i see with
Carlisle is he looks to have one of those builds that will never get bigger.
It may effect him down the track getting bashed around every week.
Henderson is built like a brick shithouse and is built for Afl footy.

Carlisle has had a good start to his career but it would be interesting
to see he would go with out the likes of Hurley,Ryder,Fletcher and the like
taking the best of the oppositions tall blokes.

In saying that i would love him at the Blues.

 

[Monkey King]

I'll give him Riewoldt, but Franklin murdered him iirc.

Incorrect recollection. In the first half Franklin definitely had the better of the duel, but he got on the end of a few that Hendo really couldn't have done much about; even then Hendo won a few contests and Hawthorn was absolutely dominating. In the second half, Hendo didn't let Buddy have much of a sniff and beat him one-out a few times. Hence why I said his last six quarters have been outstanding ... and they have.

Carlisle for me purely because of bias and the fact that I don't rate Hendo, and never have

Nobody on BF rates Henderson. Nobody rated Kennedy at the Blues either. It's a Carlton thing I guess. Thank goodness BF gets it wrong more often that it gets things right.

 

[Vinnie Vegas]

Nobody on BF rates Henderson. Nobody rated Kennedy at the Blues either. It's a Carlton thing I guess. Thank goodness BF gets it wrong more often that it gets things right.

Kennedy wasn't any good at the Blues, or for his first year at West Coast...

Henderson hasn't been any good at Brisbane or at Carlton. I sincerely doubt that he's on the same career trajectory as Josh Kennedy - By Kennedy's fourth year he was averaging 7 marks and 2 goals holding down CHF, whereas Henderson still looks like he's struggling to find a true position.

If Henderson was comparable to Kennedy, Carlton would have stuck him at CHF and left him there.

As for the poll, Carlisle, but seriously... Play him forward, Hirdy. Backline isn't for him.

 

[Donakebab]

Carlisle several years younger? Try less than 2 years younger. Henderson
is going to be a very good player as is Carlisle. The only poblem i see with
Carlisle is he looks to have one of those builds that will never get bigger.
It may effect him down the track getting bashed around every week.
Henderson is built like a brick shithouse and is built for Afl footy.

Carlisle has had a good start to his career but it would be interesting
to see he would go with out the likes of Hurley,Ryder,Fletcher and the like
taking the best of the oppositions tall blokes.

In saying that i would love him at the Blues.

Start of season Carlisle was at 92kg at 198cm in comparison to Henderson 95kg at 196cm. Really not that far off and considering Jake is 2 years younger, have no doubt he'll stack a few more kegs on and be fine.

 

[Monkey King]

Kennedy wasn't any good at the Blues, or for his first year at West Coast...

Hmm ... so you're saying BF can't rate talent unless it's on fire? Pretty much!

I've seen it all before with Chris Yarran being labelled a spud at 18yo despite possessing rare talent. Even Judd is called a hack on BF Main Boards these days.

Henderson hasn't been any good at Brisbane or at Carlton. I sincerely doubt that he's on the same career trajectory as Josh Kennedy

Did I suggest he's on the same career trajectory as Josh Kennedy? You've made quite a leap there. About your bold comment though, you don't think a 20yo CHF kicking 25 goals in 19 games in his first year with a new club reconstructing their forward line can be rated as having been any good? Seems this line of thinking relies more on BF re-hash than the player himself.

Can you try to support your claims a little more; rather than just saying he hasn't been any good, try to point out why he's been no good, or what should have been expected compared to what he's delivered?

If Henderson was comparable to Kennedy, Carlton would have stuck him at CHF and left him there.

Why? Because you say so? Kennedy played FF and ruck stints as much or more than CHF at Carlton, so the comment is immediately lacking sense. But Hendo in his second year with us having hip surgery and bugger all preseason - similar to Murphy last year - coupled with Jammo's injury answers this query far more insightfully than your inference that he's just not up to it.

 

[Dirt Track]

Henderson has shown absolutly nothing , Carlton are just holding onto that grim ray of hope he may become that tall forward they had to give away.

 

[Monkey King]

Henderson has shown absolutly nothing , Carlton are just holding onto that grim ray of hope he may become that tall forward they had to give away.

As has already been posted in this thread, Henderson's taken the No.1 defender role and had a very good last two weeks against quality opposition after having the same surgery as Murphy did last year and a shot-to-pieces preseason.

As a 20yo, Henderson kicked 25 goals from CHF in his first year with a new club reconstructing it's forward line - which alone is far more than Carlisle has done in AFL.

So how does this translate as being absolutely nothing, particularly in a comparison with Carlisle? What should have been expected of Henderson instead and what exactly has Carlisle done more of?

 

[Silvagnis]

I dunno I just watch Henderson and I just don't see anything special about him. He's decent in most aspects but just doesn't have any real outstanding qualities. Carlisle just has sensational hands, his marking is a real strength and positions himself very intelligently. Both are certainly capable of playing both ends though and are definitely versatile. Carlisle is several years younger and has time on his side as well. Henderson may take his game to another level but right now, I'd take Carlisle.

What weapons does Carlisle have other than his clean hands?

Skills aren't better than Henderson who is a better athlete with a good motor for a player of his size.

Lachie is good at ground level for a player of his size and has intensity.

Hurley is the only tall on Essendon's list who has the presence that says pick me first.

 

[Vinnie Vegas]

Did I suggest he's on the same career trajectory as Josh Kennedy? You've made quite a leap there. About your bold comment though, you don't think a 20yo CHF kicking 25 goals in 19 games in his first year with a new club reconstructing their forward line can be rated as having been any good? Seems this line of thinking relies more on BF re-hash than the player himself.

You compared a young KP player on your list to another young KP player formerly on your list as an example of how people (in your opinion), underrate Carlton players.

My point was that Kennedy wasn't rated when he was at Carlton because he hadn't played any really good footy, and Henderson isn't rated for the same reason. Kennedy sharply improved in his second year at West Coast, and due to that improvement in his play, the regard in which he was held by the footballing public increased.

The fact that Henderson hasn't played much good footy in my opinion, and you agree that he's not on the same trajectory as Kennedy, which could mean that he is not going to improve at the rate that Kennedy did... I'd suggest that if he's not very good now, and he's not going to improve sharply, then he might not be much of a player.

Can you try to support your claims a little more; rather than just saying he hasn't been any good, try to point out why he's been no good, or what should have been expected compared to what he's delivered?

It's my opinion, based on watching Henderson play over the last four years. I don't see a great degree of natural nous that you see in the likes of a Michael Hurley, and I don't see the exceptional kind of athleticism and occasional "freakishness" that Jack Watts is starting to display.

He's older and has been in the system longer than both of those guys, yet I haven't seen the same promise from him.

He's more workhorse (at best) than thoroughbred, IMV, and while I use superlatives to make my point, as is the fashion on the internet, I stand by the fact that I don't think he'll ever be more than a handy player in this league, and he'll have to improve before he's even handy consistently.

Why? Because you say so? Kennedy played FF and ruck stints as much or more than CHF at Carlton, so the comment is immediately lacking sense. But Hendo in his second year with us having hip surgery and bugger all preseason - similar to Murphy last year - coupled with Jammo's injury answers this query far more insightfully than your inference that he's just not up to it.

You can make all of the excuses for his play that you like, but other than that one long goal he kicked this year and a couple of defensive plays, I haven't really seen all that much promise from him, to the point where I'd rate him higher than a player who's shown pretty similar capabilities with 2 less seasons on an AFL list and that is almost two years younger.

I like Jake Carlisle, and believe that he's been played almost exclusively out of position to this stage, so I rate him higher than Henderson, who despite your excuses, has had more opportunities to impress.

Carlisle is now at the same stage in his career that Henderson was when you got him from Brisbane, and he's streets ahead of Henderson at that point - If he were to show real improvement in his 3rd and 4th years, which Henderson really didn't, statistically, then Carlisle would be streets in front by his 4th year.

 

[Kong]

What weapons does Carlisle have other than his clean hands?

- Reads the ball through the air exceptionally well
- Is deceptively strong for such a beanpole
- Quite quick for a tall guy
- Mobile for any player, let alone a tall
- Makes smart decisions
- Good by foot and hand

The only thing Carlisle hasn't done right is put on another 15kg.

 

[Jesse Custer]

What weapons does Carlisle have other than his clean hands?

Skills aren't better than Henderson who is a better athlete with a good motor for a player of his size.

Lachie is good at ground level for a player of his size and has intensity.

Hurley is the only tall on Essendon's list who has the presence that says pick me first.

Carlisle is an excellent reader of the play and his kicking is very good. Add his one grab marking and he isn't too shabby below the knees either He's got the ingredients to be a very good player.

Its all in front of him of course. Apart from Hurley, I reckon i'd pick Pears, Crameri, Fletcher, Hardingham, Hooker as talls in my side before Henderson at this stage.

 

[Monkey King]

My point was that Kennedy wasn't rated when he was at Carlton because he hadn't played any really good footy, and Henderson isn't rated for the same reason.

So it's interesting then that Carlisle hasn't even outperformed Hendo this year, let alone produced anything like Hendo did last season, but you're rating him the better player. Not very congruent with your above logic.

Kennedy had obvious talent at the Blues, but granted, not obvious to BF. No point suggesting that Hendo and Kennedy's formline run's anything like one anothers. It took JK until he was 22yo to produce the kind of returns Hendo was getting at 20yo.

The fact that Henderson hasn't played much good footy in my opinion

So what's not good about 25 goals from a 20yo CHF? You still haven't answered this question. His final few games last season were actually very good.

It's my opinion, based on watching Henderson play over the last four years. I don't see a great degree of natural nous that you see in the likes of a Michael Hurley, and I don't see the exceptional kind of athleticism and occasional "freakishness" that Jack Watts is starting to display.

He's older and has been in the system longer than both of those guys, yet I haven't seen the same promise from him.

Ahem. He's only 6 months older than Hurley and been through two clubs. Yes, I agree he hasn't shown the same promise as Hurley, but really, so what? Hurley is man-child. And how can you miss Hendo's nous? He runs to all the right places, uses his body well and generally makes good decisions. If he held more of his marks last year, this would have perhaps be more obvious. Beat Franklin and Reiwoldt one out on nous alone over the last couple of weeks.

You can make all of the excuses for his play that you like, but other than that one long goal he kicked this year and a couple of defensive plays, I haven't really seen all that much promise from him, to the point where I'd rate him higher than a player who's shown pretty similar capabilities with 2 less seasons on an AFL list and that is almost two years younger.

When Pears went down against the Blues, Carlisle looked very shaky. I get your narrative and subjective assessment put Carlisle ahead, but on performance, you wouldn't want him lining up as your No.1 KPD taking on Buddy or Reiwoldt. As a forward, you wouldn't expect him to go kicking 25 goals from 19 games at CHF either.

As for the excuse making comment, pfft. Heard the same trash talk about Murphy last year. If you can't factor in real circumstances like that, then your picture of the player is incomplete. That's just a fact.

Carlisle is now at the same stage in his career that Henderson was when you got him from Brisbane, and he's streets ahead of Henderson at that point - If he were to show real improvement in his 3rd and 4th years, which Henderson really didn't, statistically, then Carlisle would be streets in front by his 4th year.

What a messy train of thought. It's hard to find a way to respond when you form such an inaccurate premise on which to base your conclusions. I think I'll just refer you to the actual statistics. How the hell is that no improvement in his third year???

I don't mind incorporating considerations of Carlisle being nearly 2 years younger, but Hendo is clearly already ahead on performance and at 21yo still has a mountain of improvement in him. (but yes, I get that like JK, you don't see it). I will leave including peering into the future so expectantly to you though.

 

[Monkey King]

Its all in front of him of course. Apart from Hurley, I reckon i'd pick Pears, Crameri, Fletcher, Hardingham, Hooker as talls in my side before Henderson at this stage.

That's pretty WOW for me JC and confirms to me what a bad wrap Hendo gets on BF. At present, Hurley and Pears would be the only of those talls I'd want on my list before Hendo, and I reckon he'll overtake Pears by careers end. I'd take Crameri outright too atm, but wouldn't really classify him as a tall and Hendo as a versatile KPP is far more what the Blues need.

 

[Kong]

Just on Henderson, he's my "big mover" prediction for 2012.

Reckon he'll nail CHB.

 

[TheBoyWhoLived]

Carlisle is actually really agile he was a midfielder when he was 16.
then grew 22cm is 18months and now hes a KPP.

 

[Vinnie Vegas]

So it's interesting then that Carlisle hasn't even outperformed Hendo this year, let alone produced anything like Hendo did last season, but you're rating him the better player. Not very congruent with your above logic.

I'm rating him well ahead of Henderson at the same age and years in the league. Comparing them now is comparing apples with oranges.

Kennedy had obvious talent at the Blues, but granted, not obvious to BF. No point suggesting that Hendo and Kennedy's formline run's anything like one anothers. It took JK until he was 22yo to produce the kind of returns Hendo was getting at 20yo.

He had obvious talent as a virtue of being drafted at pick #4 in the draft - Any young tall kid has talent. Beyond that, they have to actually show consistent performance.

Henderson was nowhere near Kennedy at 22 when he was 20 - He turned 20 in his second year in Brisbane in 2009, while Kennedy turned 22 in the 2009 season, where he kicked 31 goals in 16 games.

If you're talking about the year that they started the season at 20 and 22, which was last year, then it's also not close, as while Henderson managed 25 goals in 19 games, Kennedy kicked 41 goals, and took more contested marks.

So what's not good about 25 goals from a 20yo CHF? You still haven't answered this question. His final few games last season were actually very good.

Maybe they were good, but he was playing as a key forward for a side with a very, very good midfield - One might expect him to kick a few goals just by being there.

Setanta O'hAilpin kicked 26 goals from less games, and I don't rate him as much of a player either.

Jack Anthony kicked 50 goals for us in 2009, but he looks like he's not even an AFL level player now.

Ahem. He's only 6 months older than Hurley and been through two clubs. Yes, I agree he hasn't shown the same promise as Hurley, but really, so what? Hurley is man-child. And how can you miss Hendo's nous? He runs to all the right places, uses his body well and generally makes good decisions. If he held more of his marks last year, this would have perhaps be more obvious. Beat Franklin and Reiwoldt one out on nous alone over the last couple of weeks.

I know he's not much older than Hurley, I'm just saying that at a younger age, Hurley is the kind of natural footballer where you can it in him.

I don't think the same is true, and I don't share your assessment of Henderson being a cerebral player with a lot of nous. I think he works hard and sticks to his man, and he's not without talent, but this isn't an assessment of him alone - It's him versus Carlisle, where I happened to rate Carlisle higher.

When Pears went down against the Blues, Carlisle looked very shaky. I get your narrative and subjective assessment put Carlisle ahead, but on performance, you wouldn't want him lining up as your No.1 KPD taking on Buddy or Reiwoldt. As a forward, you wouldn't expect him to go kicking 25 goals from 19 games at CHF either.

I would absolutely expect Carlisle to kick 25 goals from 19 games if he played at CHF next year for Essendon, when he will be the same age that Henderson was when he did it for Carlton.

I wouldn't have wanted Henderson lining up on Buddy or Riewoldt in his second year either...

Is your assessment NOT "narrative and subjective"? That's what we're all doing right now.

As for the excuse making comment, pfft. Heard the same trash talk about Murphy last year. If you can't factor in real circumstances like that, then your picture of the player is incomplete. That's just a fact.

My point is that none of the facts about Henderson make Carlisle less of a prospect. The fact is that he's being compared to a guy who's virtually two years ahead of him in terms of development, and who has had more opportunity than him. Henderson SHOULD be showing more right now, but he's only marginally ahead, and I believe that his third and fourth years will be better than Henderson's third and fourth years.

What a messy train of thought. It's hard to find a way to respond when you form such an inaccurate premise on which to base your conclusions. I think I'll just refer you to the actual statistics.

I looked at those exact stats. His goal numbers changed in 2010 because he played forward, but his possession, mark and tackle averages remained virtually identical in his second, third and fourth years. His averages over those three years show differentials of just 0.7 possessions, 0.8 marks and 0.7 tackles from the best mark to the worst.

In fact, his disposal and mark averages this year are lower than they have been in the previous two seasons - How can you suggest that my premise that he has shown little statistical improvement is inaccurate? He's actually shown statistical regression in the disposals and marks categories.

I'm not saying he hasn't improved as a player, but statistically, there's some stagnation. He's not finding more of the ball or taking more marks than he has in the previous two seasons.

I don't mind incorporating considerations of Carlisle being nearly 2 years younger, but Hendo is clearly already ahead on performance and at 21yo still has a mountain of improvement in him. (but yes, I get that like JK, you don't see it). I will leave including peering into the future so expectantly to you though.

I'm not saying he won't improve, I just believe that Carlisle will improve more.

You seem to disagree that this is a valid opinion for me to hold, based on the facts available. I contend that it is a perfectly valid opinion, shared by others who have voted in this poll.