Last of the Enola Gay crew dies

[Malifice]

True. It's definitely a slur and a blight on Australia that this word is still in regular use, and worse still used as part of business names. I know of at least two businesses importing Japanese car parts (one in Sydney, one in Brisbane) which proudly display that slur as part of their business name on prominent roadside signage. Pretty disgusting really and surprised it's still alllowed.

Out of curiosity, how is Jap a slur? Its a shortening of the term 'Japanese' like how Oz is a shortening of Australia, or Brit for the British.

I know its subjective (i.e if the Japanese dont like it, its a slur) but am I missing some sort of implied racism or ethnicentrism here?

 

[Gough]

Out of curiosity, how is Jap a slur? Its a shortening of the term 'Japanese' like how Oz is a shortening of Australia, or Brit for the British.

I know its subjective (i.e if the Japanese dont like it, its a slur) but am I missing some sort of implied racism or ethnicentrism here?

I guess a lot of it is subjective, you'd know the difference between the Australian use of the word Paki and it's intent and the use and intent of it in England by some.

 

[Malifice]

I guess a lot of it is subjective, you'd know the difference between the Australian use of the word Paki and it's intent and the use and intent of it in England by some.

Good comparison.

I never realised Japanese people found the term 'Jap' offensive. I'll bear it in mind in the future.

 

[Sydneyfan]

Out of curiosity, how is Jap a slur? Its a shortening of the term 'Japanese' like how Oz is a shortening of Australia, or Brit for the British.

I know its subjective (i.e if the Japanese dont like it, its a slur) but am I missing some sort of implied racism or ethnicentrism here?

Using 'Jap' for Japanese is akin to using 'Paki' for Pakistanis, or 'Abo' for Indigenous Australians. They are not used as terms of endearment and if the party it's directed towards take offense, it's offensive.

True, Aussies and Brits don't get offended by being called such and I'd estimate that would be due to a number of factors including ethnocentrism, the relative casualness of British and Australian culture, that the terms 'Brit' and 'Aussie' are almost always used as a term of endearment, that those terms are almost never used as terms of disdain, division or exclusion; and that the Australians and British have far more often than not been on the same side of history and there's not the cultural/historical baggage of the one using the term coming from a nation/culture that got one over the other in the past.

For those reasons I'd say 'Jap' is most definitely a slur and undoubtedly a word Japanese people and people of Japanese descent dislike being referred to as.

 

[Sydneyfan]

I acknowledge that some people may be ignorant that many Japanese find the term 'Jap' offensive (and the use of the term 'Paki' in Australia), but that can hardly be used as an excuse, it is 2014 after all.

 

[Malifice]

I acknowledge that some people may be ignorant that many Japanese find the term 'Jap' offensive (and the use of the term 'Paki' in Australia).

Yeah totally. Context is vital.

Im reminded of this pearler:



When I first saw it late night in Australia during the cricket, it didnt even occur to me that it was racist. I just saw a cricket fan trying to be friendly to other cricket fans.

 

[TubbsFarquhar]

Yeah totally. Context is vital.

Im reminded of this pearler:



When I first saw it late night in Australia during the cricket, it didnt even occur to me that it was racist. I just saw a cricket fan trying to be friendly to other cricket fans.

I'm pretty sure that ad aired when the Windies were touring a few years ago so I don't think there was any intention to be racist. I imagine it would have been the same had it been the Ashes or if the Indians toured.

 

[Malifice]

I'm pretty sure that ad aired when the Windies were touring a few years ago so I don't think there was any intention to be racist. I imagine it would have been the same had it been the Ashes or if the Indians toured.

What do you do when youre a white guy in an uncomfotable situation being surrounded by rowdy black folks?

Feed them fried chicken.

Show that ad in the UK or USA and it wouldnt end well. Trust me man, there is no way that KFC or the Ad company missed the implication there.

 

[skilts]

True. It's definitely a slur and a blight on Australia that this word is still in regular use, and worse still used as part of business names. I know of at least two businesses importing Japanese car parts (one in Sydney, one in Brisbane) which proudly display that slur as part of their business name on prominent roadside signage. Pretty disgusting really and surprised it's still alllowed.

Insensitive, definitely. Unthinking, apparently. Racist, borderline.

If you want to see 'disgusting', refer #57 in this thread.

In the poster's favour is that I don't think anybody had any doubts about what he meant.

 

[Norwegian Blue]

Insensitive, definitely. Unthinking, apparently. Racist, borderline.

If you want to see 'disgusting', refer #57 in this thread.

In the poster's favour is that I don't think anybody had any doubts about what he meant.

Um, post 57 was your excerpt from the diary of Olga Blamey following up a fairly innocuous post from PR. What am I missing?

 

[Dry Rot]

69th anniversary today.

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

I acknowledge that some people may be ignorant that many Japanese find the term 'Jap' offensive (and the use of the term 'Paki' in Australia), but that can hardly be used as an excuse, it is 2014 after all.

Some?

I'd say most are unaware (not ignorant, as you put it). Including myself.

 

[Catfish Alley]

Really? How old are you? I'm only in my 30s but would never think of meeting somebody and saying something like 'are you a Jap?' I've always known it as a racist term.

 

[Norwegian Blue]

Really? How old are you? I'm only in my 30s but would never think of meeting somebody and saying something like 'are you a Jap?' I've always known it as a racist term.

It's still in fairly common usage. I pass this place twice a week:

 

[kfc1]

Fascinating to see the archaic term 'Japs' thrown around here.

It's not a term of endearment. Take it from someone with a 'Jap' wife.

I suggest you, or your wife, are being a bit precious. Those who have used it in this thread can correct me if they did indeed mean it as a racial slur, but most people these days use it as they would say "Aussies" or "Poms".

 

[kfc1]

I acknowledge that some people may be ignorant that many Japanese find the term 'Jap' offensive (and the use of the term 'Paki' in Australia), but that can hardly be used as an excuse, it is 2014 after all.

This is a stupid attitude to have.

If someone uses the term "Jap" as a simple shortening of the term "Japanese" with no racist intentions, then why insist that it has to be racist? That just makes no sense to me. Are you looking to find racism when it's not there? The end goal should be to get to a point where anyone can use such terms without it being considered racist.

 

[Chameleon75]

This is a stupid attitude to have.

If someone uses the term "Jap" as a simple shortening of the term "Japanese" with no racist intentions, then why insist that it has to be racist? That just makes no sense to me. Are you looking to find racism when it's not there? The end goal should be to get to a point where anyone can use such terms without it being considered racist.

you can't ignore the historical usage of a word and then blame the person offended for being offended.

 

[kfc1]

you can't ignore the historical usage of a word and then blame the person offended for being offended.

Of course you can. What does a 25-year-old Australian male (for example) have to do with a WW2 racial slur?

Children are born without racial prejudice, they only learn it from their elders (or their peers, through their elders). Why would you support teaching your children that some anonymous person on the internet, or random kid at school, hates you for your racist when he doesn't?

Words evolve. Just like the word Jap existed before it was a racial slur, it then became one, and at some point it has to move beyond that. Just like homosexuals being called gay, then claiming it as "their defining word, and now it is moving beyond that to a generic word kids use like "s**t".

When so many of the world's problems are caused by real and manufactured hate or outrage why would you seek to continue down that path when it is completely unnecessary to do so?

 

[kfc1]

They leveled the entire city. Hiroshima was chosen becuase it was surrounded by mountains which would contain and amplify the blast.

Like, we didnt have laser guided munitions back then, but I'm fairly sure its hard to miss a city.

Funny you mention that as I read tonight that the second bomb was meant for Kokura but they hit Nagasaki instead due to the cloud cover over Kokura. Shows it was a little more difficult than you make it out to be.

 

[Malifice]

Funny you mention that as I read tonight that the second bomb was meant for Kokura but they hit Nagasaki instead due to the cloud cover over Kokura. Shows it was a little more difficult than you make it out to be.

Nagasaki was site 2. It was clear so they hit that instead.

Its not in legal debate that it was a war crime. The only question was 'was the war crime justified'.

I say no, as any other answer leads one down a very slippery moral slope indeed.

 

[kfc1]

Nagasaki was site 2. It was clear so they hit that instead.

Its not in legal debate that it was a war crime. The only question was 'was the war crime justified'.

I say no, as any other answer leads one down a very slippery moral slope indeed.

Not entering that debate, just wanted to address the point about how easy it was to bomb precisely.

 

[Malifice]

Not entering that debate, just wanted to address the point about how easy it was to bomb precisely.

I think its more they wanted to be as precise as they could as this was their last one for a month or two.

Wanted to see the results first hand.

 

[Dry Rot]

They kind of missed on Nagasaki. Whole mission was a bit of a shambles. Boxcar almost ran out of gas.

 

[Malifice]

They kind of missed on Nagasaki. Whole mission was a bit of a shambles. Boxcar almost ran out of gas.

Shitty day for the people of Nagasaki all round really.

Shouldnt have been hit in the first place, and even then nearly got left alone due to a fuel shortage, plane breakdown, last minute change in plans and bad weather.

Before and after:

Note how the Bombardier targeted a race track.

Legit military target.

87,000 killed.

 

[Dry Rot]

The bombardier missed his target. There was still a lot of cloud. Casualties were lighter than intended. Your aerial shots don't reflect the hilly typography which saved many. IIRC the second bomb was a more powerful plutonium bomb.

It actually landed next to a church (have been to both Nagasaki and Hiroshima).