Luke Hodge v Chris Judd

[Hens Hall]

Neither of these statements are true. Judd at Carlton was huge. Has multiple AA's and an MVP to attest to that. Hodge may have been in better form in the twilight of their careers, but it's lopsided to say he's been elite for longer given how lacking he was in the early part of career in this regard. And certainly just using the term elite as though both players form just fall neatly under this umbrella is a bit silly. You might as well say Hodge has been elite for long than Ablett too; it's kinda meaningless.



Doesn't piss me off in the slightest. I have a soft spot for the Hawks.

Making out that excelling as a midfielder is just running around as you please while playing HBF is some kind of super difficult position is just ignorance. Pure ignorance. As for Hodge being the best at it, he's a 3 time All Australian, the last of those being 5 years ago. Great player, great captain, but Hawk posters tend to exaggerate at every turn and saying he's as good a footballer as Judd is just another turn. No team related accolade is going to change that.

Showing your ignorance and bias.

Hodge had his break through year one year after Judd (2004 versus 2005) after battling OP in his first few years and even then he averaged similar numbers to Judd.

He made AA in 05 one year after Judd did.

Hardly lacking in the early part of his Career.

 

[Monkey King]

Showing your ignorance and bias.

Hodge had his break through year one year after Judd (2004 versus 2005) after battling OP in his first few years and even then he averaged similar numbers to Judd.

He made AA in 05 one year after Judd did.

Hardly lacking in the early part of his Career.

Oh right. So now Hodge had an equal start to his career. Let's just forget all the questions being asked back then about the Hawks decision to take Hodge with pick one. Judd was winning Brownlow's and Norm Smith's, and Hodge got AA on a HBF. Or look at it this way, from 2002-07 Hodge had one All Australian, while Judd was a Brownlow medal winning, MVP winning dual B&F's etc roundly recognised as the best player in the league ... but hey, Hodge apparently is now elite for longer after having a couple of better seasons at careers end when injury took it's toll on Judd after years of being a midfield battering ram.

And I'm the one showing ignorance and bias. Yeah good one.

 

[detox]

Doesn't piss me off in the slightest. I have a soft spot for the Hawks.

Making out that excelling as a midfielder is just running around as you please while playing HBF is some kind of super difficult position is just ignorance. Pure ignorance. As for Hodge being the best at it, he's a 3 time All Australian, the last of those being 5 years ago. Great player, great captain, but Hawk posters tend to exaggerate at every turn and saying he's as good a footballer as Judd is just another turn. No team related accolade is going to change that.

I never said playing midfield was easy.

Hodge has proven that he is an ELITE midfielder though. In 2010 Hodge was AA Centreman, and 2nd in the MVP. IN 2005 he played Mid and dominated, but was named on the HBF (like how Dangerfield will probably be named HFF this season). He played predominantly mid. He rotated 50/50 in 2008 and should be named this season AA and has played predominantly midfield.

You like to pretend that Hodge can't cut it in the midfield because it helps you try and exaggerate your point, but its not true. When in the middle, Hodge is a better mid than most specialist mids, and in terms of truely dominant performances, (Multiple Goals, High contested possessions/clearances/160+ champion data scores.) After Ablett, Hodge plays these freak games as often as ANYONE (including Judd). Check out some of his numbers from between 2005-2010 if you disagree. Hodge has kicked bags of 6 from the midfield. FEW players are capable of this. He certainly doesn't do it from the HBF. The old "HBF is easy" routine is just piss in the wind.

ON the flip side, How many midfielders can move to defence and play as good as Hodge? How many permanent small defenders period are as good as Hodge when he's down there? His versitility if anything is what would could be perceived as what makes up the difference between him and Judd. Dominant defensive performances can win matches as much as dominant midfield games. Go watch the 2008 grand final if you disagree.

You talk about him playing in defence like its some kind of hinderance to him.

 

[jwint43]

Judds best was better but hodge has been more consistent for longer

 

[jackenny]

Oh right. So now Hodge had an equal start to his career. Let's just forget all the questions being asked back then about the Hawks decision to take Hodge with pick one. Judd was winning Brownlow's and Norm Smith's, and Hodge got AA on a HBF. Or look at it this way, from 2002-07 Hodge had one All Australian, while Judd was a Brownlow medal winning, MVP winning dual B&F's etc roundly recognised as the best player in the league ... but hey, Hodge apparently is now elite for longer after having a couple of better seasons at careers end when injury took it's toll on Judd after years of being a midfield battering ram.

And I'm the one showing ignorance and bias. Yeah good one.

It probably needs to be said that Hodge is averaging the second highest Fantasy Football points next to Todd Goldstein at the moment. Fantasy Football points aren't the be-all-and-end-all of good football, but nobody averages that amount of points without being exceptionally influential on the field. Basically, it is a bit disingenuous to describe Hodge's last two years as 'a couple of better seasons' and really understates how good Luke Hodge is playing at the moment. I mean, really, he won the Norm Smith in last year's Grand Final, and you're merely describing it as 'a couple better seasons'? Really?

For reference: http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/dream_team_season

Hodge has proven that he is an ELITE midfielder though. In 2010 Hodge was AA Centreman, and 2nd in the MVP. IN 2005 he played Mid and dominated, but was named on the HBF (like how Dangerfield will probably be named HFF this season). He played predominantly mid. He rotated 50/50 in 2008 and should be named this season AA and has played predominantly midfield.

You like to pretend that Hodge can't cut it in the midfield because it helps you try and exaggerate your point, but its not true. When in the middle, Hodge is a better mid than most specialist mids, and in terms of truely dominant performances, (Multiple Goals, High contested possessions/clearances/160+ champion data scores.) After Ablett, Hodge plays these freak games as often as ANYONE (including Judd). Check out some of his numbers from between 2005-2010 if you disagree. Hodge has kicked bags of 6 from the midfield. FEW players are capable of this. He certainly doesn't do it from the HBF. The old "HBF is easy" routine is just piss in the wind.

detox made some great points.

I mean, Chris Judd is lauded for that game against the Lions in which he kicked a career-best five goals. It was a game he dominated. It's cited as an example of Chris Judd being an absolute freak. Yet you have Luke Hodge kicking a career-best six goals, another five goals against another team, a couple more four goal games in his career, and that's not considered as freakish?

 

[Hens Hall]

Oh right. So now Hodge had an equal start to his career. Let's just forget all the questions being asked back then about the Hawks decision to take Hodge with pick one. Judd was winning Brownlow's and Norm Smith's, and Hodge got AA on a HBF. Or look at it this way, from 2002-07 Hodge had one All Australian, while Judd was a Brownlow medal winning, MVP winning dual B&F's etc roundly recognised as the best player in the league ... but hey, Hodge apparently is now elite for longer after having a couple of better seasons at careers end when injury took it's toll on Judd after years of being a midfield battering ram.

And I'm the one showing ignorance and bias. Yeah good one.

No need to get so up tight.

Your post is full of contradictions and outright bullshit.

No where did I say Hodge had a better start to his career than Judd. I pulled you up on your bullshit comment that Hodge was lacking in his early career which is a crock. Hi did just fine achieving AA in his 4th year only one after Judd.

Then you use injury in Judd's last few years to excuse his form but don't afford Hodge that luxury in his first couple of years when he had OP or 2012 when played the season with a buggered PCL. Why shouldn't great seasons like Hodge is playing at careers end count as much as early or mid career. Stupid and obvious biased argument.

No one is denigrating Judd achievements. He was a champ, one of the best ever midfielders at WC but then changed his game somewhat at the Blues and probably didn't hit the same heights as before but still a super player.

As some have said before Judd's peak was probably higher but burnt out sooner. Similar to Kouta to some extent (I even think Kouta's peak was better than Judd's extent because of his forward ability but that's another topic).

Hodge by all measurements has been a super player also and now in the twilight of his career and the end of Judd's there is not much between them whether you like it or not.

 

[Monkey King]

I never said playing midfield was easy ... You like to pretend that Hodge can't cut it in the midfield because it helps you try and exaggerate your point, but its not true.

I haven't pretended anything. Keep all this context ... I was replying to a poster who said of Hodge compared to Judd that he didn't get to run around doing what he wants in the midfield, as though Hodge was actually playing the tougher position over his career, which is just silly. I've played the game. HBF is easier to excel in than midfield. That's pretty much just an accepted fact. Getting the hard tag in the midfield week in week out as Judd did is just about one of the toughest gigs in footy. And Judd excelled as few others have year after year.

 

[Monkey King]

No where did I say Hodge had a better start to his career than Judd. I pulled you up on your bullshit comment that Hodge was lacking in his early career which is a crock. Hi did just fine achieving AA in his 4th year only one after Judd.

Weird to be pulled into the whole "I never said you said that" dimension, but check my post again I think.

When it comes to playing elite football, Hodge was lacking compared to Judd at the beginning of their careers. Not sure why the need to rewrite history now we're at the back-end of Hodge's career.

As I said, from 2002-2007 he'd achieved one All Australian & BnF in the same year. That's six whole seasons of footy. Meanwhile Judd had dual AA & B&F's (one in a premiership year), a Brownlow, an MVP and was widely regarded as the best in the game - some of these Hodge has never even achieved. There was significant gap and it's a fact.

Ignoring those six years to say the back-end of their careers makes Hodge more consistently elite for longer - despite him not even logging an All Australian for example since 2010 - is utter hogwash. Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just pointing out this is a bad case of short memories.

Then you use injury in Judd's last few years to excuse his form but don't afford Hodge that luxury in his first couple of years when he had OP ... Stupid and obvious biased argument.

You're kidding right? You're going to cite playing with OP? Geez mate. Look no further than Judd for a player affected by OP. Basically changed his whole game and he was never the same. Someone bought up what Judd is doing now, derp, an ACL ring any bells. Why so many comment being taken out of context here?

Hodge by all measurements has been a super player also and now in the twilight of his career and the end of Judd's there is not much between them whether you like it or not.

There's a fair streak between them whether you like it or not and the passing years will paint this clearer for you as Judd is remembered as one of the best to pull on the boots while Hodge is remembered as a champion player for the Hawks. premiership hero etc, but not one the best.

 

[Monkey King]

It probably needs to be said that Hodge is averaging the second highest Fantasy Football points next to Todd Goldstein at the moment. Fantasy Football points aren't the be-all-and-end-all of good football, but nobody averages that amount of points without being exceptionally influential on the field. Basically, it is a bit disingenuous to describe Hodge's last two years as 'a couple of better seasons' and really understates how good Luke Hodge is playing at the moment. I mean, really, he won the Norm Smith in last year's Grand Final, and you're merely describing it as 'a couple better seasons'? Really?

So what are the last two years if not a couple of better seasons? I mean seriously? Is it more than a couple? Pfft!

detox made some great points.

I mean, Chris Judd is lauded for that game against the Lions in which he kicked a career-best five goals. It was a game he dominated. It's cited as an example of Chris Judd being an absolute freak. Yet you have Luke Hodge kicking a career-best six goals, another five goals against another team, a couple more four goal games in his career, and that's not considered as freakish?

I think you've missed the point here. That game is cited because he kicked 5 goals in the first half against a Lions midfield lauded as one of the best ever who were right in the middle of a three-peat premiership winning streak. Hodge kicked 6 goals against a 13th placed Bulldogs. I mean not to talk down that excellent game from Hodge, but if you can't spot the difference ...

 

[kade]

So what are the last two years if not a couple of better seasons? I mean seriously? Is it more than a couple? Pfft!



I think you've missed the point here. That game is cited because he kicked 5 goals in the first half against a Lions midfield lauded as one of the best ever who were right in the middle of a three-peat premiership winning streak. Hodge kicked 6 goals against a 13th placed Bulldogs. I mean not to talk down that excellent game from Hodge, but if you can't spot the difference ...

Just last week Hodgey kicked 4 in the 1st half against the cats..

 

[Demonated]

It probably needs to be said that Hodge is averaging the second highest Fantasy Football points next to Todd Goldstein at the moment. Fantasy Football points aren't the be-all-and-end-all of good football, but nobody averages that amount of points without being exceptionally influential on the field. Basically, it is a bit disingenuous to describe Hodge's last two years as 'a couple of better seasons' and really understates how good Luke Hodge is playing at the moment. I mean, really, he won the Norm Smith in last year's Grand Final, and you're merely describing it as 'a couple better seasons'? Really?

For reference: http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/dream_team_season



detox made some great points.

I mean, Chris Judd is lauded for that game against the Lions in which he kicked a career-best five goals. It was a game he dominated. It's cited as an example of Chris Judd being an absolute freak. Yet you have Luke Hodge kicking a career-best six goals, another five goals against another team, a couple more four goal games in his career, and that's not considered as freakish?

I've got to chime in here though. Not all goals are created equal. Judds 5 from the midfield against the Lions at the Gabba were in my time watching footy the best midfield bag I have ever witnessed. He didn't really do it with the help of teammates but rather individually tore apart the most feared team in the league at the most feared venue. One only needs to venture as far as YouTube and they will see exactly what I'm saying, what he did that day hasn't been repeated since.

 

[Hens Hall]

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2015-08-21/whats-luke-hodges-secret

 

[Lethality]

I don't think this is Hodge's best season, he gets to fly under the radar and just go wherever he likes. It's the perfect role for him.

2010 and 2005 were his best seasons, followed by 2008

 

[Back One Out]

I don't think this is Hodge's best season, he gets to fly under the radar and just go wherever he likes. It's the perfect role for him.

2010 and 2005 were his best seasons, followed by 2008

Agreed.

You come to realise that most people who share their opinions on footy don't really watch the games. They just base their opinions on a handful of quarters they catch on TV and maybe one or two games in the flesh, plus the Supercoach & Dreamteam bullshit. They also just parrot whatever the flogs in the media are saying.

Hodge was beset by injuries in 2011 and 2012 after an outstanding 2010 season when he was named All-Australian captain. Since he came back from knee surgery in 2012, he has basically played at the exact same level in each of the past 3 years. He should've been named the All-Australian half back flanker in 2013 and 2014, but the selectors had their heads up their arses. He finished 4th and 5th in the B&F voting of the premiership team (despite playing a couple of games fewer than the midfielder place-getters.) HBFs such as Brodie Smith and Andrew Mackie had good seasons, but better than Hodge?!? Come on...

Like you say, Hodge's most dominant individual seasons were in 2005, 2008 and 2010. He would've won the Brownlow in 2005 if the Hawks had won 10 or 11 games instead of being a rubbish bottom four team. He was BOG in a number of games where we lost by 6-7 goals and none of our players got votes. 35 possessions and dominant, 10 possessions clear of the next best, but the winning team got the 3-2-1. Oh well. Brownlow is all about luck, good timing and media groundswell.

Hodge has aged very nicely, but this was always going to be the way when you consider he was never an outstanding athlete like Chris Judd, who relied on speed, power and endurance. I always thought Hodge was more of a "natural" footballer than Judd. His football brain and decision-making are as good as anyone that I've seen play the game - same goes with Sam Mitchell - both of them have got "it". Neither of them were going lose much as they got older and slower by foot.

Not that I'm saying Judd wasn't also a "natural" with great fundamental skills and the ability to read the play. Just that he had a different skill set and was more reliant on his straight ahead speed, power, agility, athleticism, etc, than guys like Mitchell and Hodge. As long as they stayed clear of injury niggles, there was no reason why they couldn't maintain their form until they are 34/35.

 

[Back One Out]

I think you've missed the point here. That game is cited because he kicked 5 goals in the first half against a Lions midfield lauded as one of the best ever who were right in the middle of a three-peat premiership winning streak. Hodge kicked 6 goals against a 13th placed Bulldogs. I mean not to talk down that excellent game from Hodge, but if you can't spot the difference ...

I watched that game again not too long ago. Fox Footy showed it after he retired. I think the legend has grown a bit over time. Judd was nowhere near as prominent in that game as I had remembered.

Awesome to watch that second quarter - I remember it well. I remember yelling out to my hosuemates, "Come and check out this Judd kid!" It was his "A Star Is Born" moment - so that was exciting and helped build the legend. But it wasn't the typical dominant midfield performance from Judd that we became accustomed to seeing over the next 3-4 seasons.

5 goals and 17 possessions. It was more like Jason Akermanis at his goal-kicking best: sprinting inside fifty, pouncing on a few loose balls, weaving past hapless opponents and kicking truly.

You talk about the "great Brisbane midfield", but the Lions were f**king rubbish that day. The Eagles kicked their arses all over the Gabba - not just Juddy, but their entire team! They won by 11 goals. It was also the beginning of a mid-season slump for Brisbane where they lost 5 games in 7 rounds and had a number of players struggling with injury.

Judd did all of his work forward of centre - not in the midfield - he was beating the one-paced tough-guy Brisbane defenders when he kicked those goals - the Scott brothers, Darryl White, Martin Pike, etc. He was playing on a half forward flank and mopping up inside fifty from the long bombs kicked to the West Coast KPFs.

Exciting to watch… a great game from the 20yo kid, but I reckon it's been overhyped to some degree because it was Juddy… Other half forwards have kicked 3 in a quarter and 5 in a half, but you don't people crapping on about it like they do with Judd.

I think the hype was more to do with everyone knowing were witnessing a future champion, but somehow it gets twisted as one of the all-time great games, which is just garbage...

 

[Kram]

Judd. particuarly at his peak was absolute dynamite. Hodge, quality player sure but really overrated and not fit to shine Judd's boots.

 

[Judd2Sewell]

Judd. particuarly at his peak was absolute dynamite. Hodge, quality player sure but really overrated and not fit to shine Judd's boots.

lel. stay bitter Kram81, you amuse me

 

[JCHolmes]

Showing your ignorance and bias.

Hodge had his break through year one year after Judd (2004 versus 2005) after battling OP in his first few years and even then he averaged similar numbers to Judd.

He made AA in 05 one year after Judd did.

Hardly lacking in the early part of his Career.

I would assume he means lacking when compared to Chris Judds early years. Which is this threads whole point. In which case severely lacking. Hodge was also a good player at that time? Yeh he was, but he wasn't unanimously the best player in the comp, who the year before won a brownlow, all aust, B&F.

 

[Schraderbrau]

I've gotta say, being called brain dead and a moron for thinking Judd is a better footballer than Hodge is a little over the top. I mean, it's a pretty stock standard opinion if you ask any AFL footballer or commentator etc. I do think though that it highlights how emotional a topic it is for you blokes and how that emotional reaction obscures your judgement. Judd is second only to Ablett in this era. Sorry guys.

+1. Throughout Judds time at WC it was regularly suggested that he was on track to be goat. It is also fiar to say that in those years there had never been a player like him. To an extent he pretty much revolutionized how the game was perceived. The whole inside/outside mid terminology as well as the view that the top A+++ midifelders have to be elite in both categories came about because of Judd's dominance in both areas.

Relative to his time at WC, Judd was a disappointment at Carlton. But he was still in the top 2-3 players in the comp for most of his time there, and was still always a better player than Hodge.

There's quite clearly a recency bias which all of this Hodge business. In 20 years time people will still be talking about Judd and Ablett as the players of this era. Like everybody else, Hodge will be forgotten.

 

[detox]

There's quite clearly a recency bias which all of this Hodge business. In 20 years time people will still be talking about Judd and Ablett as the players of this era. Like everybody else, Hodge will be forgotten.

Yeah, agreed. That list of 2X Norm Smith medal winners is mighty long.

 

[Lethality]

Yeah, agreed. That list of 2X Norm Smith medal winners is mighty long.

2x Norm Smith medal winning back to back premiership captains are a dime a dozen.

 

[Bardo State]

+1. Throughout Judds time at WC it was regularly suggested that he was on track to be goat. It is also fiar to say that in those years there had never been a player like him. To an extent he pretty much revolutionized how the game was perceived. The whole inside/outside mid terminology as well as the view that the top A+++ midifelders have to be elite in both categories came about because of Judd's dominance in both areas.

Relative to his time at WC, Judd was a disappointment at Carlton. But he was still in the top 2-3 players in the comp for most of his time there, and was still always a better player than Hodge.

There's quite clearly a recency bias which all of this Hodge business. In 20 years time people will still be talking about Judd and Ablett as the players of this era. Like everybody else, Hodge will be forgotten.

Yeah, nah. Bit of revisionism there. 2011 and probably 2009 were the only years Judd produced noticeably better seasons than Hodge (other than 2012 or 2015 due to obvious injury reasons). 2010, 2013 and 2014 Hodge had the edge. 08 much of a muchness.

To say Hodge won't be remembered is a bit silly. At a minimum he has 2x Norm Smiths and is a 2x premiership captain. That would have him remembered regardless of the rest of his career. No need to pot Hodge to try and talk up Judd.

 

[Hawkk]

2x Norm Smith medal winning back to back premiership captains are a dime a dozen.

In fact they don't exist (except for Hodge that is)

Has there ever been any other player that has scored Norm Smith votes in 3 premiership winning GF's (10 votes in '08 10 votes in '14, 2 votes in '13)?

Luke Hodge it could be argued is one of the greatest GF players in the history of the sport

On top of that Luke Hodge is probably the best captain in Hawthorn's storied history

Forgotten and all that

 

[iGNITER]

Judd at his best was unreal to watch.
Judd would be in the top 10 players I have seen.

Hodge would not be in the top 30.

 

[The Edukator]

Hodge busted for drink driving is very disappointing. Not way over but over nonetheless. Leader of men but perhaps not such a leader for todays society, particularly it's impressionable youth. At least he's owned up to it though