General Bombers Talk Mods - this board is impossible to read

[Kong]

Personally, I agree with what you've just said.

I guess my concern is for the time being, regardless of whether or not this trial becomes permanent, turning away those more casual posters.

For the time being, is there anything we can try to make it more friendly for you? (I realise that sounds condescending, sorry)

 

[gPhonque]

I am feeling better now.

Thought I was misreading changes to the title eg ; Hurley five goals against Brisbane.

Firstly, you clearly didn't read my original post.

Secondly, give it a few days... and then that "discussion" will be completely lost within the "Michael Hurley" thread.... ie. not viewable from the "topic list" (which is the POINT of having a topic list), unsearchable through the BigFooty search function, etc... just gone... buried somewhere in a 60+ page thread.

Previously, those threads were being combined into the main player threads after a few weeks anyway...

You see, this, again, is the entire problem.

What does that achieve?

You instantly make topics completely unsearchable by doing that.

What if somebody (as I do quite often, and I'm sure others do too) want to revisit a particular topic from a year ago.... to see what people said at the time about something? A few keywords into the BigFooty search, and hey presto - there's your thread!

Now? You get a single 100 page thread to trawl through for an hour. And you MIGHT find what you're looking for.

There's one really good way to have a good say on the running of the board though, Phonque Bonch... they're looking for a mod at the moment.

I've been here over 10 years. I've never had the time or interest in being a mod. I have less time now. Which is another reason why the current experiment is a complete nightmare.

You want to make me mod? Sure - I'll do it. But the first thing we'll be doing is going back and working and looking the way a functioning message board works and looks. Separate threads for separate discussions. It's a simple concept that has passed the test of time.

You know, other than "It creates more discussion in the player threads" (which is just purely by default due to the fact that everything gets shoved into them now), I still haven't heard ONE advantage to this new "format."

I, and others, have listen a ton of negatives though.

At the moment we are unlikely to have much more than one topic related to a given player, but in a couple of week's time this will explode.

Regarding Hurley for example we could have:
1) The contract situation (hopefully this is in the bag by then though)
2) A recent game where he did really well
3) The ongoing discussion about where he should play
4) His new haircut (running out of examples!)
5) And God knows what may come up besides ...

Exactly. And they'll all be shoved into one generic Michael Hurley thread.

Have the mods (and others who are currently enjoying this thing) thought about how things are going to be in a years time? We're going to have a whole bunch of 300+ page threads! NOTHING will be searchable via the BigFooty search function. Conversations and discussions will be lost, buried within these ridiculous giant threads.

What about in 5 years time? Are we going to have a 3000 page Michael Hurley thread? Or are you going to start a new uberthread - Michael Hurley Part 2 - and then people will have TWO giant uberthreads to trawl through trying to find the information they're looking for?

One of the great things about internet message boards is that fact that they are such a great source of information. Information that is searchable, and easy to find.

Not on this board anymore.

I compose music for a living. My main program I use is called Logic. Imagine if Apple, who have a board for Logic topics, decided to, rather than have seperate threads for seperate topics, or bugs, or issues.... decided to instead create one big thread called "Logic bugs." It would completely destroy the board... both for CURRENT users, AND for future users looking to find information on a particular topic.

That's exactly what's happening to this board.

What's happened is the existing player watch threads (some going back to 2007, as noted) have become that player's ongoing discussion thread.

Again, you're not using any foresight at all.

That might be ok for the moment..

"Where do I talk about Michael Hurley?"

"Why, in the Michael Hurley thread of course!"

"Thanks!"

But skip forward a few months...

"Where do I find the discussion on Michael Hurley's 5 goal game against Brisbane?"

"Why, in the Michael Hurley thread of course!"

"Oh ok... that thread's 300 pages long.... which page?"

"I dunno."

The thread title has been updated by Mods to reflect whatever the conversation's about at that time;

Exactly the problem.

For what it's worth i don't like the new format much....

....yes, information is still accessable and there's been a few things i've taken the extra effort to sift through, however with time constraints at work there has been plenty of times i've looked at the board, decided i couldn't be bothered and gone to the AFL board or another site for a quick read.

Again it's only my personal experience, but that experience has already lead me to spend less time on the essendon board than i did previously.

And already, the scenario I mentioned above (the dance music forum that turned into a boys club) is starting to occur. And you're not the only one The House.... I too don't come here as much looking for Essendon info anymore.... as it's almost impossible to find.

Can I ask why people didn't use the Player Watch board previously?

Why does it even need to exist?

If there is news about a player, create a thread and discuss it on the main Essendon board. When the discussion is done, we all move on, the thread drops out of sight, and life goes on. People can still search for the thread at a later date. All is well in the world.

What exactly is a "Player Watch" board or thread meant to achieve anyway? People seem to be under the illusion that if everything is nice and neatly in the one thread, it's easy to find.... when in fact, it's actually harder to find anything!

So you'd prefer to have a thread for contract talks, a toast, a roast, an injury thread, whatever it is?

I'd prefer to have separate thread for separate discussions.

A pretty simple concept really, but one that works on every other message board on the planet.

 

[Kong]

You seem to be a member of a number of forums.

I'm surprised you're unaware of the "search for threads/posts" function.

Simple and easy to use.

You say you won't be able to find "Hurley 5 goals Brisbane" in one thread. Search for that "by post". Done.

If that's the crux of your worries, which is how I'm seeing it, it's again a very easy solution.

The problem though, about non-regulars not being able to keep up, again, is a genuine worry.

I see you've been here for 11 years for 3,000 posts. What stopped you before?

 

[The Prosecutor]

Firstly, you clearly didn't read my original post.

Secondly, give it a few days... and then that "discussion" will be completely lost within the "Michael Hurley" thread.... ie. not viewable from the "topic list" (which is the POINT of having a topic list), unsearchable through the BigFooty search function, etc... just gone... buried somewhere in a 60+ page thread.

You do realise you can search terms within posts?

As others have stated, that doesn't work (isn't a realistic option) for many people. Nor does it solve the problem above.

Really, how hard is it to click on the second last page?

Exactly. I only know of ONE other particular forum that has ever done this.... and it was only on one board of that forum. It was a dance music forum, on the "general" board section where people discussed anything and everything. However, there was a small group of maybe 20 people who posted religiously on that site. The result? Only those 20 people ever posted on that board, while nobody else (including myself) ever bothered to read it, because you couldn't find anything unless you trawled through 100+ page threads.

The END result, by the way, was that the entire forum died. Why? Because it went from being a great place for people to get info on what was happening, to a forum full of 100+ page threads where only that small clique group (who posted every 5 mins) ever knew what was being discussed.

The rest of us left and started getting our info elsewhere.

That is only one solitary case study.

Of course it has! Because everything is now shoved into the one thread!

That's like saying "I'd like my children to eat more veggies", and then only cooking them veges (and nothing else), and turning around and saying:

"Hey, it's great that you're eating more veges!"

Shame they didn't have a choice, and that everything else has been neglected.

Everything is in the one solitary thread means you can talk about what ever issue you want. Its much better than normal when we'll have a new new item that will get maybe 10 posts and then dies.

You see, this, again, is the entire problem.

What does that achieve?

You instantly make topics completely unsearchable by doing that.

What if somebody (as I do quite often, and I'm sure others do too) want to revisit a particular topic from a year ago.... to see what people said at the time about something? A few keywords into the BigFooty search, and hey presto - there's your thread!

Now? You get a single 100 page thread to trawl through for an hour. And you MIGHT find what you're looking for.

Again, you can search for posts rather than threads, its not that hard.

I've been here over 10 years. I've never had the time or interest in being a mod. I have less time now. Which is another reason why the current experiment is a complete nightmare.

You want to make me mod? Sure - I'll do it. But the first thing we'll be doing is going back and working and looking the way a functioning message board works and looks. Separate threads for separate discussions. It's a simple concept that has passed the test of time.

You know, other than "It creates more discussion in the player threads" (which is just purely by default due to the fact that everything gets shoved into them now), I still have heard ONE advantage to this new "format."

I, and others, have listen a ton of negatives though.

1) It delivers increased discussion
2) It centralises everything
3)The thread titles allow you to know the current points of discussions

You say you can highlight negatives of the new system, but its just as easy to find negative sin the old system.

Exactly. And they'll all be shoved into one generic Michael Hurley thread.

Have the mods (and others who are currently enjoying this thing) thought about how things are going to be in a years time? We're going to have a whole bunch of 300+ page threads! NOTHING will be searchable via the BigFooty search function. Conversations and discussions will be lost, buried within these ridiculous giant threads.

What about in 5 years time? Are we going to have a 3000 page Michael Hurley thread? Or are you going to start a new uberthread - Michael Hurley Part 2 - and then people will have TWO giant uberthreads to trawl through trying to find the information they're looking for?

One of the great things about internet message boards is that fact that they are such a great source of information. Information that is searchable, and easy to find.

Not on this board anymore.

I compose music for a living. My main program I use is called Logic. Imagine if Apple, who have a board for Logic topics, decided to, rather than have seperate threads for seperate topics, or bugs, or issues.... decided to instead create one big thread called "Logic bugs." It would completely destroy the board... both for CURRENT users, AND for future users looking to find information on a particular topic.

That's exactly what's happening to this board.

You're over-reacting, yet again, search for key terms in posts rather than threads. Simple.

Again, you're not using any foresight at all.

That might be ok for the moment..

"Where do I talk about Michael Hurley?"

"Why, in the Michael Hurley thread of course!"

"Thanks!"

But skip forward a few months...

"Where do I find the discussion on Michael Hurley's 5 goal game against Brisbane?"

"Why, in the Michael Hurley thread of course!"

"Oh ok... that thread's 300 pages long.... which page?"

"I dunno."



Exactly the problem.

Again, search for key terms in posts. You can even search with in the specific thread...

Don't need a screenshot. Just take a look at any other team board (or any other internet forum on the planet) and notice how easy it is to see all the separate discussions.

The problem on here is that discussion dies quickly because there's just too many new threads and topic die with in a couple of days.

And already, the scenario I mentioned above (the dance music forum that turned into a boys club) is starting to occur. And you're not the only one The House.... I too don't come here as much looking for Essendon info anymore.... as it's almost impossible to find.

Why does it even need to exist?

If there is news about a player, create a thread and discuss it on the main Essendon board. When the discussion is done, we all move on, the thread drops out of sight, and life goes on. People can still search for the thread at a later date. All is well in the world.

What exactly is a "Player Watch" board or thread meant to achieve anyway? People seem to be under the illusion that if everything is nice and neatly in the one thread, it's easy to find.... when in fact, it's actually harder to find anything!

Because by the end of it, there are articles everywhere, the same sort of discussions on similar topics spread out all over the board, it simply didn't work.

I'd prefer to have separate thread for separate discussions.

A pretty simple concept really, but one that works on every other message board on the planet.

I think you really need to get over it personally.

This board isn't a news outlet, its a discussion forum.

The new way is generating discussion, hence it's doing it's job.

Sorry for the hasty reply, I have probably skimped over some details and come off like an ass, but yeah.

 

[Howard Moon]

Personally, I agree with what you've just said.

I guess my concern is for the time being, regardless of whether or not this trial becomes permanent, turning away those more casual posters.

For the time being, is there anything we can try to make it more friendly for you? (I realise that sounds condescending, sorry)

tbh my concerns were all of my own doing

i never took the time to use the search functions, sort functions or read last post functions.

im just an old man stuck in the click and read past.

once i get used to all the fnctions there to make things easier itll be good..

besides it looks like the large posts above me have far more for you to deal with!

 

[Lord Nicholson]

A pretty simple concept really, but one that works on every other message board on the planet.

Bullshit, I can't think of a single forum I was on where consolidated, evolving threads wasn't the norm for recurring topics - in this case, individual players.

 

[Slattery_20]

You see, this, again, is the entire problem.

What does that achieve?

You instantly make topics completely unsearchable by doing that.

What if somebody (as I do quite often, and I'm sure others do too) want to revisit a particular topic from a year ago.... to see what people said at the time about something? A few keywords into the BigFooty search, and hey presto - there's your thread!

Now? You get a single 100 page thread to trawl through for an hour. And you MIGHT find what you're looking for.

Search "by post" rather than "by thread".

 

[Drummer_19]

Also, 30 posts per page >>>>> 15. Bigfooty should really give the option for 100 ppp.

 

[Childish Gambino]

The website I got the idea of using player watch threads on the main board was from the Newcastle-Online forum where it works very well.

As has been said numerous times and I've used this example before. In the past we've had multiple Brent Stanton threads with the exact same discussion in it. No matter what new Brent Stanton news item there was the thread would always be taken over by Stanton haters/lovers and the news item would be lost anyway.

By having a Brent Stanton thread on the main board we're keeping all the Stanton debate limited to one thread, if a news item comes up a mod changes the title to reflect it.

There were actually a few 'player watch' threads on the main board without the 'player' title before the change was implemented which were functioning quite well. The Scott Gumbleton thread was an example of this. I mentioned this to Kong at the time.

I agree that it might be hard to catch up on a thread if you're a casual user, which is the case for me at Newcastle-Online. But I usually just read the player threads that I'm interested in and once I'm done I mark the whole forum as read.

 

[lamaros]

I like it, though it would be better if you could list more threads per page.

Also I think Kong needs to not bump player threads as talking points as much as he does - it can overwhelm the other threads when a few of these get bumped every day.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

I hate the new format, as a result have been spending much less time here. I have always said "If there is no need for change, DON'T". Go back to separate player threads, this merging business is absolute rubbish, it is too hard to find things.

 

[Childish Gambino]

As has been said, no threads have been merged!!

Agree with Lamaros about the pointless bumping. I feel it unnecessary.

 

[Kyptastic]

I used to read the player watch forum quite a lot and wondered why it wasn't used more for centralised player discussion. With the change, at least they're getting more exposure and should lead to the silly threads that toast/roast a player's performance after a game being consolidated into the one thread where it's easier to understand the trends.

I like it, though it would be better if you could list more threads per page.

Also I think Kong needs to not bump player threads as talking points as much as he does - it can overwhelm the other threads when a few of these get bumped every day.

I don't mind the bumping so much in the off season - one of the best moderators I know on a forum that has lost traffic (a natural decline as the series the forum is based on has pretty much ended) does it to help encourage discussion. I imagine that Kong won't need to do it so much during the season as there will naturally be enough to talk about that the forum will move by itself quite well.

 

[Kong]

Also I think Kong needs to not bump player threads as talking points as much as he does - it can overwhelm the other threads when a few of these get bumped every day.

No worries.

I do this in general; have long before this, just to encourage discussion.

Noted, though; I'll do less bumping on player threads, unless it's warranted.

 

[lamaros]

No worries.

I do this in general; have long before this, just to encourage discussion.

Noted, though; I'll do less bumping on player threads, unless it's warranted.

To be clear: I think the title updates to show where the discussion is at are great.

 

[yaco55]

I like it, though it would be better if you could list more threads per page.

Also I think Kong needs to not bump player threads as talking points as much as he does - it can overwhelm the other threads when a few of these get bumped every day.

Agree about this point - Let posters bump threads when appropriate - This can lead to childish posts.

Possibly this is being done as an editorial decision.

 

[Deeksy]

Some thoughts about this from someone who's on daily, but doesn't post very regularly at all:

• I understand the rationale about bringing the Player Watch threads to the main board, but coming to the front page, it's very confusing.
• Although encouraging long threads does make it easier to contain the discussion to relevance, if I'm coming here and I see a thread over 10 pages long, I'm never going to look at it, unless I've already contributed to it.
• The user interface (forum interface) is not particularly helpful. The down arrow for "new post" looks nothing like what it represents, and "No Prefix" does not just turn off Player Watch it removes ALL prefixes, including News, which I like to look at.

I'm not claiming any right to change the board, and if this is the way to go, then that's fine. I have found, however, that this change does make the board harder to navigate, and I've found myself using it less and less because of it.

 

[Call Me Cake]

Fix the No Prefix tab so that it only excludes Player Watch threads - not every prefix and allow 30-40 posts in each page and all will be good.

I'm open to see how it all goes during the season.

 

[Summer Nights]

Put up a poll after you've done the trial. Have you got a screenshot of what the board looked like prior to the trial starting? Might be worthwhile.

Yep

Tumbleweed.jpg

 

[rines]

Kong, I think Rnd 2 is a good time to draw a line but again that line will favour regular posters.

I just think everyone needs to be wary of the experience ALL users have not just regulars, this place is hard enough to 'break into' without added mess.

Also having 'mega' threads can open up a can of worms with old debates coming back as each person reads through a past history and restarts old conversations. This was less likely with seperate threads as they 'usually' died once they left the first/second page of the MB.

Also think it is inappropriate to suggest that anyone who doesn't like the changes is just 'stuck in their ways' and allergic to change. Some people are quite capable of coping with change and able to express when they don't like those changes.

However it has been EXCELLENT in the most part for preseason because at least some discussion was happening. Needs testing in season proper (preferrably after both a win and a loss (but if this doesn't happen all year so be it )) so that we have a true idea of its success/failure.

 

[Kong]

Put up a poll after you've done the trial. Have you got a screenshot of what the board looked like prior to the trial starting? Might be worthwhile.

No screenshot, unfortunately. Might be one floating around somewhere though.

I'm a fan of the poll generally, democratic society and all that.

Worth a thought.

 

[Kong]

Kong, I think Rnd 2 is a good time to draw a line but again that line will favour regular posters.

I just think everyone needs to be wary of the experience ALL users have not just regulars, this place is hard enough to 'break into' without added mess.

Yeah I agree with that, we're mindful of the best way of involving everybody as much as possible.

Also having 'mega' threads can open up a can of worms with old debates coming back as each person reads through a past history and restarts old conversations. This was less likely with seperate threads as they 'usually' died once they left the first/second page of the MB.

Hadn't considered that, actually.

We'll just have to see how it goes.

Also think it is inappropriate to suggest that anyone who doesn't like the changes is just 'stuck in their ways' and allergic to change. Some people are quite capable of coping with change and able to express when they don't like those changes.

Yeah no that's fair enough.

I think a lot of the time people don't like change, but obviously it's a bit of a generalisation.

However it has been EXCELLENT in the most part for preseason because at least some discussion was happening. Needs testing in season proper (preferrably after both a win and a loss (but if this doesn't happen all year so be it )) so that we have a true idea of its success/failure.

Absolutely.

It might even turn out that once the season starts, so much goes on that the threads become redundent.

It might also turn out it's just something we wheel out each preseason to keep discussion up.

As you say, we'll need to see how we go once the real stuff gets going.

 

[gPhonque]

I think a lot of the time people don't like change, but obviously it's a bit of a generalisation.

That is true. (both points)

But in this case, the change has been made without any foresight to what will happen to the forum. It's just a quick knee-jerk reaction to the off-season slowdown in an attempt to generate more discussion. (which firstly - I don't see that it's your job to do, or why it even needs to be done, and secondly - I think you're kidding yourselves that it has worked. I don't think I've posted here once during the off season because all I see are giant long threads that clearly have discussions already going... discussions that have been going for 50 pages without me. I'm hardly about to sit here, read through them, and then get involved. As a poster stated earlier, us casual posters are much less likely to get involved in such threads, and much more likely to get involved in new threads.)

It's not a case of disliking change for the sake of it. We dislike the change because we feel the forum has become MUCH harder to navigate, and has become far less inviting for those of us who don't spend large amounts of time on the forum. And as I mentioned earlier, in the 12+ years I've been on internet forums, the only other time I've seen a forum head down this path, everyone apart the regular posters left the forum. And that is already happening here. The proof of that is in the very responses to this thread. Those defending the changes are - surprise surprise - all the regulars. Those criticizing the changes (and even admitting that they're already heading elsewhere) are the casual posters and readers.

Let me remind you that there are far more casual posters and readers than you regular guys.

 

[Lord Nicholson]

So basically, you haven't even attempted to work within the change, and have instead just looked at it and made up your mind there and then, and decided that the entire demographic of non-regular users also agree with you, and that to generate discussion is not in the mandate of regular, senior posters, and that the activity on the board is superficial and will dry up because you've seen the future.

IIRC, there was a discussion thread about making this change before it was put in place where opinions were lobbied for. But then I guess non-regulars might have missed than and therefore weren't catered for because there's no practical way to do so.

I mean, what possible topic that you might have wanted to broach have you genuinely been dissuaded away from? If the Hurley thread is currently yapping about his contract, what's to stop you from coming in and asking "Forward or defence" and the discussion following that path, regardless of whether it's been discussed before? Have you even tried doing that?

 

[Kong]

@gPhonque: Thanks, but you're also making a few baseless comments there.

This was thought up and planned for a few months before we went ahead with it. We knew there were pros and cons, like with everything.

You say you haven't posted over the preseason, when you average less than a post a day over 11 years, is it that much different? Also, between your last post on here 30th of November 2011 and until this thread two days ago, you've made a grand total of two posts on other football boards. So what's stopped you everywhere else? As you say, we're the only board doing it.

You also say it hasn't increased board activity. Everybody else in this thread, even those not in favour of the trial, say otherwise. As does this.

I don't disagree that it could cause the "reader, not a posters" to be hesitant (as above I said I'm wary of it), but everything else you've said's pretty inaccurate.

And of course it's our "job" to encourage discussion on a, erm, discussion forum.