More unfathomable umpiring

[hilly]

Who was the clown that ducked into a tackle and got a free kick right on quarter time? GAGF.

 

[Thewlis Dish]

Who was the clown that ducked into a tackle and got a free kick right on quarter time? GAGF.

Boekhorst I think.

 

[Only Forwards]

Can someone explain to me what sort of account the umpires are actually held to?

Does a game get reviewed?

Is it reviewed with all 3 umpires to go over what mistakes or inconsistencies there were?


Umpires should have a game day crew that consists of 3 ground umpires, and an emergency umpire. They should be set together at the start of a season and then throughout the year they all work the same games.

By doing this perhaps the AFL iron out the fact that a decsion will go one way at one end of the ground and another way at the other end.

Umpires are going to be s**t, its what their job is, but if they could be consistently s**t both ways over the course of a game over all of the ground, I'd be happy with that.

 

[Mr. Blonde]

Michael Firrito likes this

 

[Mav]

I firmly believe that the best way to sort the game out ; and this is where I think the umps are getting it wrong; is for them to be directed to blow the whistle say within 3 to 5 seconds from when a player goes to ground in possession of the ball and then ball it up. That should mean less time for everyone to get around the ball and more likelihood to open up the play.
.

we were told that stopping players from jumping on the ball would decrease the amount of ball ups...I haven't seen any proof of this actually happening. Now instead of, like you say, a quick ball up we get these rolling mauls.

 

[Mav]

Can someone explain to me what sort of account the umpires are actually held to?

Does a game get reviewed?

Is it reviewed with all 3 umpires to go over what mistakes or inconsistencies there were?


Umpires should have a game day crew that consists of 3 ground umpires, and an emergency umpire. They should be set together at the start of a season and then throughout the year they all work the same games.

By doing this perhaps the AFL iron out the fact that a decsion will go one way at one end of the ground and another way at the other end.

Umpires are going to be s**t, its what their job is, but if they could be consistently s**t both ways over the course of a game over all of the ground, I'd be happy with that.

umpires get comprehensive stats on how many decisions they got correct, how many they got incorrect and how many they missed. I'm pretty sure over all the percentage of correct decisions is pretty high.

 

[hilly]

Can someone explain to me what sort of account the umpires are actually held to?

Does a game get reviewed?

Is it reviewed with all 3 umpires to go over what mistakes or inconsistencies there were?


Umpires should have a game day crew that consists of 3 ground umpires, and an emergency umpire. They should be set together at the start of a season and then throughout the year they all work the same games.

By doing this perhaps the AFL iron out the fact that a decsion will go one way at one end of the ground and another way at the other end.

Umpires are going to be s**t, its what their job is, but if they could be consistently s**t both ways over the course of a game over all of the ground, I'd be happy with that.

#2 that did our game against Brisbane didn't get a gig this week (even as emergency).

 

[Only Forwards]

umpires get comprehensive stats on how many decisions they got correct, how many they got incorrect and how many they missed. I'm pretty sure over all the percentage of correct decisions is pretty high.

IS it done in a singular 1:1 or group 1:3 type feedback.

what kills a game is where 1 umpire pays one thing and then it goes down the other end different umpire inteprets it differently and doesn't pay a similar free.

As we all know stats in isolation are largely useless.

I honestly don't believe that there is adequate feedback or quality metrics in place. While the shitful centre bounces continue I will continue to believe that whatever quality control they have is flawed. These should be the easiest things to regulate and they simply are not.

 

[JD-Roo]

#2 that did our game against Brisbane didn't get a gig this week (even as emergency).

I reckon the best way to dispute crappy decisions would be when the ump lines you up on the mark say something like "Enjoy the rest of your game mate, 'coz that decision means you're gonna be doing country games for the next three weeks!"

 

[Mav]

IS it done in a singular 1:1 or group 1:3 type feedback.

what kills a game is where 1 umpire pays one thing and then it goes down the other end different umpire inteprets it differently and doesn't pay a similar free.

As we all know stats in isolation are largely useless.

I honestly don't believe that there is adequate feedback or quality metrics in place. While the shitful centre bounces continue I will continue to believe that whatever quality control they have is flawed. These should be the easiest things to regulate and they simply are not.

I'm not sure. I don't doubt they have reviews of decisions, not just stats. AFL doesn't just want consistency with in a game, they want it across games. BUT you have to remember, often what seems to be the same scenario/event to you may look different to the umpires on the field. They usually have a different angle to you. They may not see a jumper tug, a push, etc.

What I do know is umpiring is extremely difficult. Take your comment about bouncing the ball. We expect someone to bounce an oval ball 10 meters into the air perfectly straight...every blood time!!! We have players that can't kick the ball 10 meters straight every time, why do we expect the umpires to bounce it straight every time? Personally I think we bounce the ball too high, lower it an you'll get less collision injuries occurring for the ruckman.

 

[Only Forwards]

I'm not sure. I don't doubt they have reviews of decisions, not just stats. AFL doesn't just want consistency with in a game, they want it across games. BUT you have to remember, often what seems to be the same scenario/event to you may look different to the umpires on the field. They usually have a different angle to you. They may not see a jumper tug, a push, etc.

I get the difference in angles leading to difference in interpretation. What I am suggesting is that we have the 3 umpires in sych about what their collective intrepretation of things is. Right now we do not do this. Umpires should umpire as a team.

What I do know is umpiring is extremely difficult. Take your comment about bouncing the ball. We expect someone to bounce an oval ball 10 meters into the air perfectly straight...every blood time!!! We have players that can't kick the ball 10 meters straight every time, why do we expect the umpires to bounce it straight every time? Personally I think we bounce the ball too high, lower it an you'll get less collision injuries occurring for the ruckman.

My comment has a basis in umpires like Chamberlin who is just incredibly inconsistent in what should be a fundamental skill of umpiring. FWIW I don't have an issue with him umpireing (well anymore than others), I just feel that there should be some ramifications to an inability to bounce it consistently. There should be a threshold % on bounces that are at a certain degree, too high of a % of bounces that happen out side of a degree range outside of 90 and then you no longer get to bounce the ball.

ie say the threshold is 75% of bounces between 75 degrees and 105 degrees, failure to meet the quality target results in a) more training and b) exclusion from bouncing the ball until the training is completed.

This is quality control, based upon footage that exists, but I don't believe is currently used in this way.

 

[Mav]

I get the difference in angles leading to difference in interpretation. What I am suggesting is that we have the 3 umpires in sych about what their collective intrepretation of things is. Right now we do not do this. Umpires should umpire as a team.

Disagree with this. Umpires should be able to umpire with anyone, all the umpires work as a team and they should be interchangeable. You need to do this because they are not professionals and some guys are going to be available for certain games when others aren't. Interchanging the 3 umpires also promotes consistency amongst the group.

My comment has a basis in umpires like Chamberlin who is just incredibly inconsistent in what should be a fundamental skill of umpiring. FWIW I don't have an issue with him umpireing (well anymore than others), I just feel that there should be some ramifications to an inability to bounce it consistently. There should be a threshold % on bounces that are at a certain degree, too high of a % of bounces that happen out side of a degree range outside of 90 and then you no longer get to bounce the ball.

ie say the threshold is 75% of bounces between 75 degrees and 105 degrees, failure to meet the quality target results in a) more training and b) exclusion from bouncing the ball until the training is completed.

This is quality control, based upon footage that exists, but I don't believe is currently used in this way.

Bounce stats would certainly be included. They would spend plenty of time at training on continual development of the skill.

 

[Only Forwards]

because they are not professionals

Bang

this right here is the issue with umpiring.

 

[Mav]

Bang

this right here is the issue with umpiring.

you think they can be professional? You wont get the same quality as you won't be able to pay them enough. Umpires, overwhelmingly, don't want to be professional as they earn more money outside of football. They do it because they love the game (which is something most forget!) and put an extraordinary large amount of time into it.

Don't get me wrong, I think there is a lot wrong about the way the game is being umpired but I think it comes more from those with an agenda to change the game into a game they want to see than the performance of the umpires. The umps keep having their guidelines changed and its just stupid.

 

[Only Forwards]

you think they can be professional? You wont get the same quality as you won't be able to pay them enough. Umpires, overwhelmingly, don't want to be professional as they earn more money outside of football. They do it because they love the game (which is something most forget!) and put an extraordinary large amount of time into it.

Don't get me wrong, I think there is a lot wrong about the way the game is being umpired but I think it comes more from those with an agenda to change the game into a game they want to see than the performance of the umpires. The umps keep having their guidelines changed and its just stupid.

I think that in the multi billion dollar industry that is AFL football they should be able to pay for umpires to be professional yes.

I also think that the AFL does them no favours doing things like midseason rule changes.

How's about we have another rule change, no rulchanges are allowed mid season regardless of the bleeding hearts in the media.

 

[Mav]

I think that in the multi billion dollar industry that is AFL football they should be able to pay for umpires to be professional yes.

I also think that the AFL does them no favours doing things like midseason rule changes.

How's about we have another rule change, no rulchanges are allowed mid season regardless of the bleeding hearts in the media.

risky, physically demanding profession to enter into, especially considering you wont be doing it into you 40's. 1 injury and you've got nothing to fall back on. It's just not an attractive profession.

Completely agree with the rule change you suggest.

what I hate is the rule change to fix a solution and then complaints about the consequences. Perfect example is the sub rules. Coaches complained how an injury to a player had a large effect on a team so the rule makers said, fair enough, we'll let you replace one injured player. Now everyone hates the sub rule because they've forgotten about why its there. They'll get rid of the sub rule, and when someone goes down injured I bet there are complaints from coaches that they cant compete with a man down!

 

[Shermanator]

This is from an article back in 2012

Umpires have struck a deal that will have the top earners among their ranks making as much as $150,000 per season by 2016.

That would include bonus payments for field umpires who officiate in finals and the grand final.

Top boundary and goal umpires will make about $60,000.

The five-year agreement includes a backdated seven per cent pay rise for this year, with further five, four, three and three per cent increases over the next four seasons
Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/pay-rise-for-afl-umpires-20121207-2b0qg.html#ixzz3hifaQ55H

Geez if they're getting that sort of coin for 6 months work I hate to see what they will be on when they become 'professional'...

 

[Only Forwards]

risky, physically demanding profession to enter into, especially considering you wont be doing it into you 40's. 1 injury and you've got nothing to fall back on.

Sounds like Football.

3 field umpires + emergency so 4 per game

36 a weekend + a pool of back up say 10, these would be like rookies who would get the occasional development game.

AFL could sink $10m into umpiring to cover a model like this. Given the huge amount of downtime between games I would suggest a pathways program would be more than feesible. $10m Annually to get the umpiring to a level where it was consistent across the league with clear accountability.

Chicken feed to the AFL really.

 

[Only Forwards]

This is from an article back in 2012

Umpires have struck a deal that will have the top earners among their ranks making as much as $150,000 per season by 2016.

That would include bonus payments for field umpires who officiate in finals and the grand final.

Top boundary and goal umpires will make about $60,000.

The five-year agreement includes a backdated seven per cent pay rise for this year, with further five, four, three and three per cent increases over the next four seasons
Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/pay-rise-for-afl-umpires-20121207-2b0qg.html#ixzz3hifaQ55H

Geez if they're getting that sort of coin for 6 months work I hate to see what they will be on when they become 'professional'...

I'd have no issue having gradings with top earners getting 200k a year.

As long as with it there was consistncy and accountability.

 

[Twinkletoes]

IS it done in a singular 1:1 or group 1:3 type feedback.

I had a lengthy convo with a leading AFL umpire I know well about this very subject pre season. They are scrutinised beyond belief. They are monitored throughout games and receive feedback as a group at each break. Post game they have to produce a report on the game. During the week they have a sit down one on one with the ex umpire who oversees things, and who acts as their coach, and they go through a full video of every individual decision/non decision involving them during the game prior. It's picked apart and they're marked out of ten accordingly, with the cumulative scores contributing to them umpiring finals or missing out.

They're over scrutinised in my book and instead of umpiring on instinct they're doing so with a million instructions swiling around in their heads.

 

[Only Forwards]

They're over scrutinised in my book and instead of umpiring on instinct they're doing so with a million instructions swiling around in their heads.

Quite possibly. This would also lead to umpiring aginast the "feel" of the game.

And if they are getting in the moment feedback, follwed by group feedback and singular feedback that I would suggest having that the feedback would be variable.

 

[Mav]

I'd have no issue having gradings with top earners getting 200k a year.

As long as with it there was consistncy and accountability.

top earners get 150K already. Ask them to give up there 100K+ day job (and future earnings) for another 50K?

They're over scrutinised in my book and instead of umpiring on instinct they're doing so with a million instructions swiling around in their heads.

completely agree. They need to "umpire" in accordance to the "vibe" of the game. Perfect example is finals and how they are umpired. You also see it in the last few minutes of a close tight game. If there is a an infringement that doesn't affect the play it shouldn't necessarily be paid.

while I'm on it...why are we the only sport in the world where the umpires blow the whistle and then call advantage. I hate it when the whistle blows and one teams stops while the team with the "advantage" can just carry on. We used to teach kids to play to the whistle, now we have to tell them to make sure you keep playing after the whistle to stop any possible "advantage".

 

[Only Forwards]

top earners get 150K already. Ask them to give up there 100K+ day job (and future earnings) for another 50K?

My honest answer to this is I don't care on the figure, $250k, $200k.

if the net result is consistent umpring across the ground, quarter to quarter, game to game. then it is worth it.

 

[Twinkletoes]

Quite possibly. This would also lead to umpiring aginast the "feel" of the game.

And if they are getting in the moment feedback, follwed by group feedback and singular feedback that I would suggest having that the feedback would be variable.

They receive group feedback AND individual. They're picked apart. They're given little room to go on "feel" of the game as they enter each week with the info from last week's review, further alterations to interpretations of current rules off the back of media pressure, and whatever they've been told to improve or concentrate on going forward. It's ridiculous!

Besides all of that they're mostly in senior responsible positions with their jobs outside footy and that comes with the usual pressures the rest of us punters face.

 

[Mav]

My honest answer to this is I don't care on the figure, $250k, $200k.

if the net result is consistent umpiring across the ground, quarter to quarter, game to game. then it is worth it.

the argument is that turning professional (or full time) would see very little decrease in incorrect decisions. It's a bloody hard game to umpire and I think putting a forth umpire will actually improve consistency more than going professional. It will mean less missed and an additional angle to see things better. As I said, it's a hard caper and once you accept that 100% accuracy is very rare, the less angst you'll feel towards the umpiring.