Autopsy Round 14, 2023: Richmond v St.Kilda

[Ads734]

I didn't expect bottom 4. We played a very experienced Tigers side though. This year a lot of guys like Cotchin and Martin looked past their best. They both turned back the clock.

They had Judson Clark 19, Sampson Ryan 22 who subbed out and Ralphsmith who is 21. That was their youth quota.

We had Owens, Caminiti, Windhager, Nas, Phillipou, Byrnes and Sharman added to a pretty average list. The Tigers played the bulk of their triple premiership side in conditions that suit their scrub the ball forward game style.

We are still getting knocked over by sides hitting low percentage shots as well. Bolton's ability to turn half chances into goals and their long range shots hitting the mark cost us. Add a few dumb turn overs and that was the difference.

That Wilkie smother despite whether it was 50 was a killer as were the three misses in the 4th.

 

[Remboy]

You can add the Pou to that. Wet ball skills reminded me of Winmar and his abilities in the wet.

His decision making is exceptional for a first year player. Can’t wait to see where he’s at in 50 games.

 

[SteeleSaints]

Thanks I appreciate that. To be fair there were a few others who thought the same but yes I can't shut up so was probably the most vocal.

I had two real fears leading into the season and it was if Ross could delegate (personally think he is doing that so that's fine) and the other was his ability to adapt to the modern game. Jury is still out. Our inconsistency has reared its ugly head again, we haven't won consecutive games since Round 5 I believe.

I'm confident we will play finals from here because I don't think Lyon will let us unravel completely like Ratten did, however we really need to begin to put the teams we should beat away.

We were way too King focused last night too and that was another fear of mine. We played so well when he was out of the side and now he's back the blinkers are on and we just continue to kick it to him when usually he's outnumbered.

The very coachable group rhetoric to me insinuates that the players can't direct out on field. They have a poor understanding of what it takes to win. This is partly because there's a lot of kids out there but also the senior players that we do have lack leadership.

Ross really needs to amend the clearance game before anything else IMO. We get smashed in there every week.

And again, the quicker we move players like Howard and Gresham on, the better we'll be. Howard especially, can set your watch to him giving away a few goals every week. Absolutely killing us with dumb football.

Would be a huge failure if we don't make finals from here.

I agree I am a RTB fan, but over the past few weeks his inflexible 'old traits' are starting to show through again. Blind freddy can see our midfield (apart from Crouch) are completely out of form - yet he keeps going back to the same players. Some could argue its a lack of depth, sure it is but its also an inability to think outside what his defensive model should look like. In his the past he 'pidgeon holed' players and he is doing it again.

He has always been a systems coach and most are, but when our midfield group have been so poor for 2 months its time to throw the magnets around on the board. Explore the bleeding list Ross see what potential players have in untried positions. Stop playing limited players in the same positions hoping they will magically excel - in the words of Allan Jeans "Do Something".

Ross has expressed a number of times that his Assistants developed the game plan. I thought with the amount of injuries we had over the preseason we would be a bottom 6 side this year, so to see the way we played in our first 6 weeks was sensational. Then the kids started to tire and key players got injured and since then we have gone backwards. I think Lyon is very much a planner and likes to stick to his proven structures. At the start of the year he was forced to think outside the box due to key personnel going down, but it seems he is incapable of that mid season.

I posted this morning on the site that I thought Saturdays game was lost by our coaches tactically more so than the players. Obviously no coach is perfect and Lyon definitely has his weaknesses, I just wished he would try something different in the midfield!!!

 

[gringo2011]

We could possibly carry Howard's mistakes, but when Mr Dependable Wilkie also gets in the act its a bridge too far.

Wilkie has been caught a few times HTB when he doesn't move back off the mark. The player should probably be forced to stand until it's called play on but once is an accident more than that it's a bad habit.

 

[gringo2011]

I agree I am a RTB fan, but over the past few weeks his inflexible 'old traits' are starting to show through again. Blind freddy can see our midfield (apart from Crouch) are completely out of form - yet he keeps going back to the same players. Some could argue its a lack of depth, sure it is but its also an inability to think outside what his defensive model should look like. In his the past he 'pidgeon holed' players and he is doing it again.

He has always been a systems coach and most are, but when our midfield group have been so poor for 2 months its time to throw the magnets around on the board. Explore the bleeding list Ross see what potential players have in untried positions. Stop playing limited players in the same positions hoping they will magically excel - in the words of Allan Jeans "Do Something".

Ross has expressed a number of times that his Assistants developed the game plan. I thought with the amount of injuries we had over the preseason we would be a bottom 6 side this year, so to see the way we played in our first 6 weeks was sensational. Then the kids started to tire and key players got injured and since then we have gone backwards. I think Lyon is very much a planner and likes to stick to his proven structures. At the start of the year he was forced to think outside the box due to key personnel going down, but it seems he is incapable of that mid season.

I posted this morning on the site that I thought Saturdays game was lost by our coaches tactically more so than the players. Obviously no coach is perfect and Lyon definitely has his weaknesses, I just wished he would try something different in the midfield!!!

What has he got to replace them with? Owens.....he's played maybe a total of about 60 minutes of footy as a mid so far in his 19 games of AFL level footy. Windhager who has 3 games over 15 disposals and literally just played as a mid this week, Bytel who has 21 games, 4 with over 15 disposals, 1 game with over 20 disposals (21) he also plays very similar to most other mids and is not very adaptable. Paton who might be able to play mid but is struggling off HBF, Leo Connolly who has been training as an outside mid this year. The cupboard looks pretty bare to me.

I'm not sure you can just make changes for the sake of it. How do you sell it to members to turn up when you are basically throwing the towel in for the year when you are sitting inside the top 8. I'm really struggling to understand all these moves and levers people are imagining he could pull.

 

[SteeleSaints]

What has he got to replace them with? Owens.....he's played maybe a total of about 60 minutes of footy as a mid so far in his 19 games of AFL level footy. Windhager who has 3 games over 15 disposals and literally just played as a mid this week, Bytel who has 21 games, 4 with over 15 disposals, 1 game with over 20 disposals (21) he also plays very similar to most other mids and is not very adaptable. Paton who might be able to play mid but is struggling off HBF, Leo Connolly who has been training as an outside mid this year. The cupboard looks pretty bare to me.

I'm not sure you can just make changes for the sake of it. How do you sell it to members to turn up when you are basically throwing the towel in for the year when you are sitting inside the top 8. I'm really struggling to understand all these moves and levers people are imagining he could pull.

For me its obvious - bring in Paton, move both Sinclair and Stocker to rotating mids. Play Ross on Byrnes's wing or across the hb line. Rotate Steele through the forward line take some pressure off him. Hows that throwing in the towel its giving your team the best chance to win and get the best out of the players.

 

[Dard Ball Get]

I was talking about him not you. I was trying to back you up numb nut.

Anybody with a brain could see that mate, go easy - he's going through a rough patch intellectually atm

 

[Sully111]

What has he got to replace them with? Owens.....he's played maybe a total of about 60 minutes of footy as a mid so far in his 19 games of AFL level footy. Windhager who has 3 games over 15 disposals and literally just played as a mid this week, Bytel who has 21 games, 4 with over 15 disposals, 1 game with over 20 disposals (21) he also plays very similar to most other mids and is not very adaptable. Paton who might be able to play mid but is struggling off HBF, Leo Connolly who has been training as an outside mid this year. The cupboard looks pretty bare to me.

I'm not sure you can just make changes for the sake of it. How do you sell it to members to turn up when you are basically throwing the towel in for the year when you are sitting inside the top 8. I'm really struggling to understand all these moves and levers people are imagining he could pull.

We have to build towards a flag mate. We're always focusing on "this year" rather than the bigger picture. Owens is a bull mid waiting to happen. Put him in there... leave him in there.

My biggest worry is we'll scrape into finals then bow out, or we'll miss finals and either way we'll have wasted yet another year because we haven't put games into players in their best position going forward. If we miss finals and haven't had Owens and Windy running through the midfield for the majority of the season, we're idiots.

We either build towards a flag or it's a year wasted.

Have a plan... stick to it. Members and fans will welcome the club investing in a youth brigade that is obviously choc full of talent.

 

[phantom13]

Wilkie has been caught a few times HTB when he doesn't move back off the mark. The player should probably be forced to stand until it's called play on but once is an accident more than that it's a bad habit.

The stand rule, kicking in danger and front on contact are probably the three worst officiated rules in the game right now, absolutely zero consistency and clarity on what constitutes a free or 50.

 

[EddieMurphy]

Great post, yep we're 5th with 113% everyone, nothing to see here. Let's not discuss and address any obvious issues because we simply can't get any better than this. What a s**t take

There are a few posters here that seem to have pharmacologically induced optimism

 

[phantom13]

Richmond we’re the kings of the professional free kick in their flag era. I’m pretty sure they were always down the very low end of the free kick differential ladders and rightly so.

I’m usually pretty non biased about umpiring, I think we get the standard “not a big club” end of the stick but overall I think the standard of umpiring gets worse and worse every year, I genuinely didn’t think it was too bad last night, I think we probably got a couple of 50/50 calls our way but nothing to write home about.

A Richmond supporter gave this a laugh, almost deserves a ban George ?

 

[George]

Wow - interesting post. I'll repeat the facts

We are 5th, we do have 113%, we are two games clear of ninth, Cooper Sharman will not play as a full back on Daniher or Hipwood next Friday night and Hotton and Connolly will not replace Seb or Steele.

As for getting better, the answer is clear

View attachment 1716320

PS - a little reminder for you

"We will have zero tolerance for posting that is designed to make other posters time here less pleasant or generally bring the tone of the board down.
This can include:

Any kind of abuse/denigration of a fellow St.Kilda poster (even if in retaliation).

Bullying.

Disruptive posting.

Undermining mods in doing their jobs.

Trolling other posters by way of either posting or reacting ("like", "laugh", "wow", etc) to their posts.

In short, treat others the way you wish to be treated even if you feel they are not treating you that way."

A little reminder? You're the one that initially quoted me and acted like a smart arse. Look in the mirror. Seems like all you like doing is coming on here to throw the condescending s**t around to anyone who you disagree with. When you get it thrown back at you you crack the sads.

Absolute joker to throw around the rules on bullying and making others time unpleasant. Completely oblivious LOL

 

[George]

I don't see why it's necessary to begin with "Great post", or end with "What a s**t take".
Pretty hard to pull other people up for disrespectful behaviour when you're acting like this.

Kindly have a read of the conversation again - the condescending and patronising s**t is what it stemmed from.

That's not a serious policy on here and we've lost multiple good posters as a result. Don't let yourself become the next one for pointing it out.

You need to have a read back of the conversation again too. Take the blinkers off lol

I was talking about him not you. I was trying to back you up numb nut.

Poor little pee wee

Anybody with a brain could see that mate, go easy - he's going through a rough patch intellectually atm

Thank you all for your....ummm...support....

Sorry dude, but you are coming across as condescending and patronising then calling others out for bullying and making others time less pleasant. Not sure you are making any friends or allies with that stuff.....or even bringing people around to your point of view.

That's all he does on here. If anyone dare treat him the way he treats others he'd flip out.

 

[George]

A Richmond supporter gave this a laugh, almost deserves a ban George ?

I will make it happen comrade

 

[gringo2011]

For me its obvious - bring in Paton, move both Sinclair and Stocker to rotating mids. Play Ross on Byrnes's wing or across the hb line. Rotate Steele through the forward line take some pressure off him. Hows that throwing in the towel its giving your team the best chance to win and get the best out of the players.

Paton was going badly before being dropped. It would be doing something but no guarantee that it would be an upgrade on what we have already have in there.

 

[gringo2011]

We have to build towards a flag mate. We're always focusing on "this year" rather than the bigger picture. Owens is a bull mid waiting to happen. Put him in there... leave him in there.

My biggest worry is we'll scrape into finals then bow out, or we'll miss finals and either way we'll have wasted yet another year because we haven't put games into players in their best position going forward. If we miss finals and haven't had Owens and Windy running through the midfield for the majority of the season, we're idiots.

We either build towards a flag or it's a year wasted.

Have a plan... stick to it. Members and fans will welcome the club investing in a youth brigade that is obviously choc full of talent.

I reckon you get a few die hards on board, most fans are impatient. I think Melbourne were 10 years between prelims in their rebuild that was considered one of the worst of all time. We are coming up to 13 years since the last prelim and people are rightly sick of waiting. Telling them to wait another few years while we could possibly have improvement coming doesn't sound easy to sell.

Finals and bowing out is fine as long as we keep building the list and experience while we do it. I think the biggest danger is poor list management decisions as Sos goes chasing his old picks down and over paying for GOPs while cutting back our list without getting a decent return for them.

North have a fantastic pile of youth but it's a lot less palatable when you are bottom 4.

 

[Yawkey way]

Paton was going badly before being dropped. It would be doing something but no guarantee that it would be an upgrade on what we have already have in there.

I’m a big fan of Paton he was looking very good before that broken leg. I’m confident he‘ll find his form again, he had 35 for sandy last game.

 

[gringo2011]

I’m a big fan of Paton he was looking very good before that broken leg. I’m confident he‘ll find his form again, he had 35 for sandy last game.

I watched a bit of it. He still stops and slows play while the cogs start meshing and whirring but was our most polished. He almost needs to play full time midfield, he seemed to be playing wing/mid from what I saw.

 

[George]

We have to build towards a flag mate. We're always focusing on "this year" rather than the bigger picture. Owens is a bull mid waiting to happen. Put him in there... leave him in there.

My biggest worry is we'll scrape into finals then bow out, or we'll miss finals and either way we'll have wasted yet another year because we haven't put games into players in their best position going forward. If we miss finals and haven't had Owens and Windy running through the midfield for the majority of the season, we're idiots.

We either build towards a flag or it's a year wasted.

Have a plan... stick to it. Members and fans will welcome the club investing in a youth brigade that is obviously choc full of talent.

Agree and the other thing we're the masters at is "always next year" if it doesn't pan out. Build towards a flag yes but if a flag is there for the taking then do whatever is required to get us there.

We just have way too many passengers on the list and it's an indictment on the senior players that the 1st and 2nd year types are the ones carrying the side.

 

[Ads734]

His decision making is exceptional for a first year player. Can’t wait to see where he’s at in 50 games.

His handballing is phenomenal. Hope he keeps getting g his kicking a little bit cleaner and his marking will
Get there.

 

[pebblesofsand]

A little reminder? You're the one that initially quoted me and acted like a smart arse. Look in the mirror. Seems like all you like doing is coming on here to throw the condescending s**t around to anyone who you disagree with. When you get it thrown back at you you crack the sads.

Absolute joker to throw around the rules on bullying and making others time unpleasant. Completely oblivious LOL

Again I'm not quite sure why you feel the need for yet another post full of personal attacks.

You appear to have got your knickers in a knot because I quoted you but you've forgot to mention that I actually quoted two posts to ensure context.

First was Ads734 post about the positives for the season and the second was your immediate response with a negative slant.

Not my fault I agree with Ads734 and get more than a little bit jack of all the negativity on the board.

We are 5th because we can play good football and I expect us to come out firing on Friday night with a relatively unchanged side and beat Brisbane.

Shoot me for my positivity.

 

[PostmanBish]

Hey PostmanBish, hope you're doing ok- I tell ya what, Richmond didn't change anything much with the wet weather, we just got in front early and a few of our guys in the forward half especially, took the foot off the pedal( Butler excepted), defensively and offensively, and that was all it took.

Thanks for the kind words - back home and recuperating.

It felt like once the hair got wet, our effort went with the style.

 

[George]

Again I'm not quite sure why you feel the need for yet another post full of personal attacks.

You appear to have got your knickers in a knot because I quoted you but you've forgot to mention that I actually quoted two posts to ensure context.

First was Ads734 post about the positives for the season and the second was your immediate response with a negative slant.

Not my fault I agree with Ads734 and get more than a little bit jack of all the negativity on the board.

We are 5th because we can play good football and I expect us to come out firing on Friday night with a relatively unchanged side and beat Brisbane.

Shoot me for my positivity.

Post full of personal attacks LOL what were those exactly? I said you were condescending and patronising, I didn't know that was a part of your character but maybe it is because that's all you seem to do on this board these days.

What does it matter that you had someone else's post quoted in your own (a post that you agreed with) - do you also patronise and condescend people you agree with? The comments were obviously directed at me but you acted like such a smart arse that you weren't actually up for a discussion but instead looking to make a fool of someone for a post you didn’t like. Not sure what world you live in where this is part of a normal discussion, but when you act like a total d*ckhead you shouldn't be surprised when you get it thrown back at you.

You wanted to antagonise and get a rise out of me so when I responded you had the rule book ready to go to make me look in the wrong and show everyone "Oh look everyone, the moderator isn't abiding by the rules of the board! What a hypocrite!" Completely oblivious to the fact the patronising and condescending rubbish initially came from you so to then cry about the rules of the board is an absolute joke.

Thankfully it wasn't a very good attempt at trying to win a few posters over because those that have some sense could see it for what it was.

It's very simple, if you don't want people giving it back to you then perhaps leave the shitty belittling of other posters at the door. I wasn't up for an argument and I wasn't patronising or giving anyone s**t until you came along. Take a look at your own shitty behaviour instead of pointing the finger at others for merely responding to said shitty behaviour.

 

[gringo2011]

Agree and the other thing we're the masters at is "always next year" if it doesn't pan out. Build towards a flag yes but if a flag is there for the taking then do whatever is required to get us there.

We just have way too many passengers on the list and it's an indictment on the senior players that the 1st and 2nd year types are the ones carrying the side.

Are the kids carrying us? Nas is playing very high level footy and Owens has been incredible but Sinclair, Crouch, Marshall, Wilkie, Wood would all be in our top players all year. Phillipou, Windhager, Caminiti, Byrnes types are all building up but they aren't winning many matches for us.

To me we are a not quite finished list. We don't need to knock down rebuild the rebuild of the rebuild of the rebuild. We need to start filling the obvious holes so that we aren't exposed and we then need to start moving out under performers for better players.

The emotional frustration is a waste of time. We need to focus and not go in seven directions at once. Part of the reason the kids can come in and perform well immediately is that the older players can help protect and guide them. The last couple of tries we have had to throw them to the wolves and that hasn't worked.

We still have a huge amount of players unavailable that would be able to play higher level footy than some of those kids if fit. Jones, Dmac, Hunter Clark, Coffield, Billings and Membrey. Even Jack Hayes is another that could have made an impact. Replace the under performers every week with some from this list and have a fit midfield and we are probably pushing top 4 sides.

Injury has actually helped develop a lot of youth but we have also had to make do which isn't ideal for performance. I would have been happy if you'd told me that were missing heap of players and still well entrenched in the top 8.

 

[Saint Shags]

What has he got to replace them with? Owens.....he's played maybe a total of about 60 minutes of footy as a mid so far in his 19 games of AFL level footy. Windhager who has 3 games over 15 disposals and literally just played as a mid this week, Bytel who has 21 games, 4 with over 15 disposals, 1 game with over 20 disposals (21) he also plays very similar to most other mids and is not very adaptable. Paton who might be able to play mid but is struggling off HBF, Leo Connolly who has been training as an outside mid this year. The cupboard looks pretty bare to me.

I'm not sure you can just make changes for the sake of it. How do you sell it to members to turn up when you are basically throwing the towel in for the year when you are sitting inside the top 8. I'm really struggling to understand all these moves and levers people are imagining he could pull.

I have to disagree with this. Just because he might change things in the midfield doesn't mean giving up.

And he isn't making changes for the sake of it. Ross has been out of form for 2 months. Steele has not returned fit either. Surely change is needed because at the present things aren't working as they should be for a variety of reasons.

He has some options to have a look at during this year of exploration. I'd rather give the likes of Bytel, Connolly, Sincs, Owens and even Stocker a chance to prove their wares in the midfield.
Yes there is a good chance that they don't show anything. But we'd be foolish not to have a look. Especially when 2 of our full time mids are out of form or injured. Steele would be lucky to be at 75% in such an even comp you can't be that far off it.