Preview Round 18, The Needle and The Damage Done - Jimmy Diesel and the Injectors v Hawthorn

[Argy]

Whateley appears to be saying that:
1) Claimed fact: Danks enquired in 2012 as to whether AOD-9604 was banned under section S2, without enquiring as to whether it was prohibited under any other section of the code (as AOD-9604 is a peptide, Danks appears to have assumed that it was covered by the section relating to peptides).
2) Claimed fact: ASADA responded that it was not banned under S2.
3) Implied by Whateley: ASADA should have told Danks that AOD-9604 was banned under S0, even though they were not asked about the legality of AOD-9604 under S0.
4) Implied by Whateley: ASADA did not tell Danks, or others, that AOD-9604 was banned under S0 because ASADA officials did not realise this until WADA made the point clear in April 2013.
5) Claimed fact: Under the "best advice that you could get in 2012" (from ASADA), AOD-9604 was not a banned substance.
6) Whateley's conclusion: The Essendon players will not be found guilty because Essendon officials (Danks and perhaps others) were not informed by ASADA that AOD-9604 was banned under S0, even though Danks only asked them about S2.

There are many implications of Whateley's is claiming, but the three that are most striking to me are as follows:
1) If asked about any substance, ASADA must give a comprehensive response about the status of the substance regardless of the specifics of the question asked. If ASADA does not give a comprehensive response, the sportspeople taking the substance are absolved of all responsibilities under the WADA/ASADA code.
2) It is not the responsibility of a sportsperson to know that substances not authorised for use on humans are banned under S0. It is only becomes the responsibility of a sportsperson once WADA and ASADA make that clear to them, and it appears that a general ban is insufficient, the ban has to be made specifically in relation to each and every substance not approved for use on humans.

Even if Whateley is right, given these implications, I can only see Essendon players getting off if they can prove that ASADA officials unambiguously stated, in an official capacity, that AOD-9604 was not a banned substance under the WADA/ASADA code.

From The Age...

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...-were-duped-20130630-2p5gj.html#ixzz2ZjwZF9L8​

But convincing WADA that players found to have taken banned substances should not receive suspensions is likely to be difficult, with the agency's president, John Fahey, last week saying it was up to athletes to ensure any drugs they have taken did not breach rules even if their club had declared them safe. Mr Fahey's comments came after Essendon captain Jobe Watson declared a week ago that he believed he had been injected with banned drug AOD-9604, which he said club officials had assured the players was not illegal.​

​

While any prospect of players escaping bans will please Bomber fans, several prominent club officials, including coaching staff, are likely to be held accountable by the AFL for failing to protect players from a highly experimental program.​

​

In other words, regardless of what the club told the players about any drug it is still the players' responsibility to make sure it is legal. Harsh, but they are the rules.​

 

[MrFujiMoto]

Could be a few jabs thrown.

Might be just the JAB in the pants we need if we lose? Could really PEP our season up a bit if we win though, especially if we get a goal against the TIDE to steal victory in the last, I am torn.

 

[LuvMyHawks]

selkan hawks, Just one thing I want to add to your article, is that none of OUR coaches have accused other clubs that they were taking drugs in the middle of the ground,like Shady Sheedy! He is detested by our club, and always will be, especially YOUR coach Golden Boy, for introducing ILLEGAL substances into YOUR club. I detest CHEATS playing football. Shady Sheedy was lying back then, and he still does to this very day, he will never change.He is a @#$%head

 

[MrFujiMoto]

From The Age...

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...-were-duped-20130630-2p5gj.html#ixzz2ZjwZF9L8​

But convincing WADA that players found to have taken banned substances should not receive suspensions is likely to be difficult, with the agency's president, John Fahey, last week saying it was up to athletes to ensure any drugs they have taken did not breach rules even if their club had declared them safe. Mr Fahey's comments came after Essendon captain Jobe Watson declared a week ago that he believed he had been injected with banned drug AOD-9604, which he said club officials had assured the players was not illegal.​

​

While any prospect of players escaping bans will please Bomber fans, several prominent club officials, including coaching staff, are likely to be held accountable by the AFL for failing to protect players from a highly experimental program.​

​

In other words, regardless of what the club told the players about any drug it is still the players' responsibility to make sure it is legal. Harsh, but they are the rules.​

Yep just ask cyclists, athletes, swimmers and anyone else not wearing a red and black footy jumper. Has ALWAYS been the case that the athlete is the final responsibility for what they put into their body and how it is done. This should be NO different.

 

[Argy]

I heard Fahey say that "rules are rules" when asked about Essendon.

 

[MrFujiMoto]

One thing is clear, the hatred amongst the fans is still alive and well. At least the rivalry between Hawks and Cats is based on pure respect, not hate (I tell myself this everyday, it helps me exist). Essendon rivalry is not much at the moment because of their off field behaviour.

 

[HBF]

Regardless of the result, they'll be making space for you guys in the top eight shortly.

I'm hoping we can get their under our own steam, but wouldn't it be great if it was us who took their spot in the 8. Their supporters would be even more ferral than what they usually are.

 

[play2win]

I particularly love the sniper Lloyd accusations... Coming from a club that venerates Dermie and Lethal (how did he get that name i wonder? ) Can you imagine for a second what the Essendon list of Hawk complaints would be? If Dermie had been an Essendon player i would have had to change teams. The guy was a vicious thug first and footy player second. If Kennett became president of my club i would have had to change teams. Goes without saying really.
I will lose a heap of interest in footy if it turns out that there was intentional cheating by any of the remaining people at Essendon, because support for a club cannot be blind to integrity. From what i've heard and seen so far i seriously doubt there was anything that happened other than an ASADA stuff up over that AOD classification of a substance that has been shown not to be performance enhancing. If you are calling Essendon drug cheats based on rumours that you have heard, ask yourself how that reflects on you and your integrity.

and what is the reason an organisation would inject its employees with a substance not approved for human use? you honestly think that they would do that with no thought that it was beneficial? if anyone stuffed up it is the efc.

 

[spudmaster]

Stick to what you're good at.
Hint: it involves crayons and a coloring book.

Hird when asked to draw what he thought would happen to his team when the investigations were finished (*answer below)

*after climbing up the ladder all season, they're sliding straight down after being stripped of points

 

[MinerBoy]

Might be just the JAB in the pants we need if we lose? Could really PEP our season up a bit if we win though, especially if we get a goal against the TIDE to steal victory in the last, I am torn.

I hope we really stick it to them. A loss will be a hard pill to swallow.

 

[play2win]

You Hawthorn fans are the most arrogant bunch of assholes. You have probably gone past Collingwood in that regard, so take a bow.

The investigations are still ongoing and no one has been proven guilty or not guilty so keep your mouths shut, along with the rest of the football "experts" you have absolutely no idea what the hell you are talking about, you such assume like the media.

Can't wait until Geelong beats you in the GF again you Moos. What is it now 17 in a row since the 08 GF? (where you got kissed on the dick by a fairy anyway) Bunch of chokers

Stay classy Hawthorn

dont mistake our confidence for arrogance. when was the last time Geelong beat us in the GF? Goodbye.

 

[Argy]

I'm hoping we can get their under our own steam, but wouldn't it be great if it was us who took their spot in the 8. Their supporters would be even more ferral than what they usually are.

A while back I thought the ideal scenario was for Richmond to be one place behind you. Essendon drop out, Carlton move into the eight and Richmond finish ninth again!

 

[Phil McCreviss]

Kinda shyte that this thread is being taken over by the drug investigation scenario. Anyway back to footy.

Bring in Mitchell and Franklin if he's right.

I think we need to go short in the forward line and keep it open. Essendon's defenders are good in the air but there is zero mobility on the ground. Cyril, Bruest and to a lesser extent Gunston should run rings around the Essendon defense. And I hope Essendon play Fletcher on any of our talented forwards. The old spud won't know what's going on.

 

[Brishawk]

Well aware of WADA . I was talking from a local perspective i.e. ASADA. I say that only because WADA refer all business related to that country to local authorities.

Anyway, back on subject - footy.

I think Diggydig has covered that quite well. The status of AOD-9604 is not in doubt. Only the communication between various parties has caused it to come into question when in fact its status under the code is very clear.

 

[grizzlym]

Kinda shyte that this thread is being taken over by the drug investigation scenario. Anyway back to footy.

Bring in Mitchell and Franklin if he's right.

I think we need to go short in the forward line and keep it open. Essendon's defenders are good in the air but there is zero mobility on the ground. Cyril, Bruest and to a lesser extent Gunston should run rings around the Essendon defense. And I hope Essendon play Fletcher on any of our talented forwards. The old spud won't know what's going on.

Agreed.

Listen to Uncle Phil, people. Let's get back to footy as the focus.

 

[The Dustbin]

I think Diggydig has covered that quite well. The status of AOD-9604 is not in doubt. Only the communication between various parties has caused it to come into question when in fact its status under the code is very clear.

Agree.

 

[Argy]

I particularly love the sniper Lloyd accusations... Coming from a club that venerates Dermie and Lethal (how did he get that name i wonder? ) Can you imagine for a second what the Essendon list of Hawk complaints would be? If Dermie had been an Essendon player i would have had to change teams. The guy was a vicious thug first and footy player second. If Kennett became president of my club i would have had to change teams. Goes without saying really.
I will lose a heap of interest in footy if it turns out that there was intentional cheating by any of the remaining people at Essendon, because support for a club cannot be blind to integrity. From what i've heard and seen so far i seriously doubt there was anything that happened other than an ASADA stuff up over that AOD classification of a substance that has been shown not to be performance enhancing. If you are calling Essendon drug cheats based on rumours that you have heard, ask yourself how that reflects on you and your integrity.

So let me get this straight. You think Essendon deliberately injected their players with a substance because they thought it would not enhance their performance?

Or are you just saying they should get off because their cheating was incompetent?

 

[LuvMyHawks]

Perhaps the scum should read this in News.Com.Au today..


DETAILS have emerged of undertakings given by ASADA to Essendon in the early days of its drugs investigation.
Details have emerged of undertakings given by ASADA to the Bombers in the early days of its drugs investigation.
A document obtained by the Herald Sun outlines key messages given to Essendon by the investigators, including that a "no-fault defence" could apply in their case.

Richard Ings, chairman of ASADA from 2006-10, says he is "speechless" that ASADA could consider doing a deal on penalties months before the investigation was completed.
"ASADA has no power to deal on any sanction. Only the indep ADRVP (anti-doping rule violation panel) can recommend sanction," he said on Twitter.
"I am trying to imagine a scenario of canvassing reduced fault options in such terms before completing an investigation.
"Outlining all categories of fault is fine. Presupposing actual fault collectively pre-investigation is another entirely IMO (in my opinion)."
Less than two weeks after the Australian Crime Commission released its report into drugs in sport and organised crime on February 7, the Australian Sports Anti-Doping Authority document was sent to Essendon players after top-level talks with the AFL.


Dated February 20, it informs the players, some who are alleged to have received multiple injections of AOD-9604, about their chances of receiving "a complete elimination of sanction" pursuant to the no-fault defence, should they confess knowledge.

The document also states: "The AFL understands that the investigation is likely to be protracted, complex and lengthy.

"ASADA will explain to the players that these are exceptional circumstances and the defence of no fault or negligence may be available.

"It will be explained to the players that under a no-fault or negligence defence, a player can receive a complete elimination of sanction.

"Where a player does come forward and provides a sworn statement regarding his involvement or the involvement of any other person, ASADA and the AFL will fully explore all avenues in an attempt to provide a no-fault or negligence defence or substantial assistance.

"ASADA agrees that a significant contributing factor in the consideration of a no-fault or negligence defence, will be the extent to which players knew or suspected they had used prohibited substances at the instigation of sports science staff and took utmost caution in relation to the treatments they were receiving."

The AFL Anti-Doping Code notes no fault or negligence defences apply to sanctions only, not to determination of whether a violation has occurred.




If this doesn't prove how CORRUPT ASADA,SCUM& the DICTATOR is, I will eat my hat!They have been protected as soon as all this came out, no doubt because of the action of the Dictator..This whole thing STINKS!! Now we can see why the Jabber told his story..

 

[MrFujiMoto]

I hope we really stick it to them. A loss will be a hard pill to swallow.

I see what you did there . I hope we stick them so hard, they do not know what hit em (up). We should use the old rope a DOPE tactic. Keeps things familiar for the Bombers that way.

 

[MinerBoy]

I see what you did there . I hope we stick them so hard, they do not know what hit em (up). We should use the old rope a DOPE tactic. Keeps things familiar for the Bombers that way.

Just trying to inject some humour into the thread.

 

[B&GBlood]

That may be true, I have seen cloke miss from the same position before & he is paid big $ to kick goals, Cheney isn't.

I've seen Cam Mooney miss by more from the same distance.

 

[MinerBoy]

I think Diggydig has covered that quite well. The status of AOD-9604 is not in doubt. Only the communication between various parties has caused it to come into question when in fact its status under the code is very clear.

Agree.

Yep. It's all about communication.

 

[IdiotBox]

thread title keeps getting better!

Is there somewhere to see the history of the thread title?

 

[MrFujiMoto]

Alright onto the footy -
In - Mitch, Hallahan
Out - Sewell, anyone sore

Hallahan to take Simpkins spot, Simpkin to start and Mitch to come in for sore bodies (Maybe Goo)

Give Langers another crack. Buddy to miss the usual clash against the Bombers. Roughy to put them to the sword (5 + goals, Gunston to kick 4, Cyril with about 20 touches and 3 goals. about 8 more from Breust, Poppy, Smith and Savage combined.

Go the Hawks by about 30 points

 

[LuvMyHawks]

Well, if the scum can get away with using illegal substances, maybe we should try some too. They can't penalise the players! We need some stronger bodies..