The Best Baller Debate

[jod23]

When you have guys like Bird and Magic saying the GOAT is Jordan, well who better to judge.

 

[Upgrayedd]

Probably Carmelo

 

[Apple iCup]

Well it is easy to say the 80's Bird and Magic and 90's you have go with Jordan. Then I would have to say Kobe and Duncan for '00 and so far leading the 10 era it is James. But the thread was created as there was a pre-finals debate regarding LeBron James vs Michael Jordan. 6-0 Finals vs 2-3 has a big impact. I honestly do not think that any ONE player could replicate that record, just as no one has yet touched Wilt Chamberlains record of 100 points in a single game.

We could go with the statistics of each individual player and the record shows there is at least 1 per decade that has the potential of replicating the per game averages as their predecessor (eg. Jordan, Kobe, LeBron). Kevin Durant has the potential to join LeBron James in the '10 debate, however if things keep going as they are, I believe that Durant will be what Drexler was to Jordan, close but no cigar.

 

[jod23]

No. Durant has a championship in him. He is waaaay better than Drexler. Two years ago he ran into the Heat when Bosh and Wade were still good and last year Westbrook went down leaving him too much to do by himself. This season he ran into the Spurs who are out of this world good.

He has plenty of time, just won his first MVP and seems to get better every year. He is one of those guys that doesnt quit and never stops working on his game. He will come back next season with another new string in his bow. If OKC can figure out a decent support cast around KD35, Westbrook and Ibaka then they can definitely get one.

Next year could be their year. Miami on the slide. Can San Antonio repeat? I like OKC early.

 

[Apple iCup]

I wasn't saying Durant was worse of better than Drexler, I'm saying the scenario could play out how it had for Clyde. But I do agree with what you say. A lot of people have put Brooks head on the block, but I'm not entirely sure if that is the case. Sure, he KD, Westbrook and then Ibaka see limited minutes in the 4th due to resting, but I've always liked that concept, rather than driving a player into the ground (eg. Nate McMillan with Brandon Roy).

With saying that, I do think that it has held Durant back from potential individual awards. There have been numerous occasions where I have seen Durant or even Westbrook 1 assist or rebound etc shy of a triple-double. So yes, he is good and would probably telly about 5 more career trip-dubs if that wasn't the case. When championships are the aim, this is not really a big deal. So yes, I agree with you regarding Durants talent.

You can hold a coach accountable more in basketball than you would other sports, as you're coached from start to finish, timeouts and the fact the coach is inches away (unlike AFL, where the coach is in a box and has proxies). But that doesn't mean he does't cringe when Westbrook takes that wild three.

Before I go further; I'm not saying trade Westbrook, but there has to be a serious adjustment to his game. Sure take the wide-open three, drive the lane and do that sexy floater you do from the elbow (probably my favourite Russell move). But for-[explicit]-sake Oklahoma doesn't need a wild pull-up three, with 14 still on the shot clock and a hand in your face. The other thing Westbrook does A LOT is make is move on the pick and roll, before the pick is set. Ultimately resulting in an illegal offensive move and turnover.

Hopefully while Durant was bitterly replying on Twitter about how he's rather "Paul George over Kawhi Leonard", he and Westbrook, were chilling on the couch, with a few beers observing the patience the Spurs offense had and taking notes. 'Cause I don't want to see Durant as one of those professional sport stars with no championship.

I felt like I was your Skip Bayless and you were my Stephen A Smith while writing this. I feel dirty now

 

[jod23]

You dont trade Westbrook. Terrific talent and like KD, is still getting better. Those dumb things he does in games will eventually be eradicated you would think. Oh and KD is right, Paul George is better than Leonard. Leonard plays for a better team though.

As for Scott Brooks. Id fire him to be honest. Then again, their is not a lot out there. But I just feel that if say Pop or Thibs was coaching OKC. They would have won a title by now.

 

[fidstar]

I wasn't saying Durant was worse of better than Drexler, I'm saying the scenario could play out how it had for Clyde. But I do agree with what you say. A lot of people have put Brooks head on the block, but I'm not entirely sure if that is the case. Sure, he KD, Westbrook and then Ibaka see limited minutes in the 4th due to resting, but I've always liked that concept, rather than driving a player into the ground (eg. Nate McMillan with Brandon Roy).

This may be the first time I have heard someone say that Brooks doesn't play his stars a lot of minutes.

 

[Apple iCup]

This may be the first time I have heard someone say that Brooks doesn't play his stars a lot of minutes.

Over the past three years I have watched just as much Oklahoma City and Indiana games as I have Portland. There are a lot of games where I have seen him on the sidelines for virutally the full length of the last quarter and it has sometimes cost them the game. I understand developing the bench, so it's not a moan.

After you raising an eyebrow, I had to suss out his MPG average. I was honestly expecting to see it in the 32-35 mark, not the 38 range. I would also like to go ahead and repeat myself, I don't read box scores for games. Maybe this is a case of "remembering the negatives and for getting the positives", that's why I can recall Durant on the pine more often than he probably was.

 

[fidstar]

Over the past three years I have watched just as much Oklahoma City and Indiana games as I have Portland. There are a lot of games where I have seen him on the sidelines for virutally the full length of the last quarter and it has sometimes cost them the game. I understand developing the bench, so it's not a moan.

After you raising an eyebrow, I had to suss out his MPG average. I was honestly expecting to see it in the 32-35 mark, not the 38 range. I would also like to go ahead and repeat myself, I don't read box scores for games. Maybe this is a case of "remembering the negatives and for getting the positives", that's why I can recall Durant on the pine more often than he probably was.

Yeah, Durant is famous for playing heavy minutes. I'm not going to look, but I'd be surprised if he isn't in the Top 3 each year for the last 5 years.

 

[Gus Poyet]

GOAT discussions are pointless. Saying a SG is better than a C is the reason why.

The two are incomparable due to the positions and roles they play.

If Jordan played C on the likes of Olajuwan night in and night out he'd get destroyed.

Jordan is the greatest at his position of all time. Doesn't mean he's in the top 5,10,20 of all time at other postions.

 

[fidstar]

GOAT discussions are pointless. Saying a SG is better than a C is the reason why.

The two are incomparable due to the positions and roles they play.

If Jordan played C on the likes of Olajuwan night in and night out he'd get destroyed.

Jordan is the greatest at his position of all time. Doesn't mean he's in the top 5,10,20 of all time at other postions.

I'm not sure what you are getting at here. Of course you can compare different positions. They do it every year when they pick an MVP. Of course it is easy when comparing someone that plays the same position.

Jordan getting destroyed by Olajuwon? That works both ways. MJ would destroy him at the other end of the court and if they played a game of 1 on 1, I'm picking MJ.

 

[peternorth]

when comparing guards we need to consider blocks per game

 

[Gus Poyet]

I'm not sure what you are getting at here.
Of course you can compare different positions.

No you can't. Playing in certain positions can restrict you from having the ball in your hands as often as another position.

SG by nature will have the ball in their hands and have more leeway to do as they like with it compared to a C.

They do it every year when they pick an MVP. Of course it is easy when comparing someone that plays the same position.

The MVP is like the Brownlow. You could be the greatest defensive player of all time and still not win it.

Jordan getting destroyed by Olajuwon? That works both ways. MJ would destroy him at the other end of the court and if they played a game of 1 on 1, I'm picking MJ.

Basketball isn't a game of 1 on 1. So irrelevant.

I agree it works both ways. That's why Olajuwan isn't in the top 1000 SG of all time.

IMO Magic Johnson is the GOAT simply because on any given night he could play in any of the 5 postions on the court and still be able to compete at the highest level. That to me is the indication of the most complete basketballer ever to play the game.

 

[fidstar]

No you can't. Playing in certain positions can restrict you from having the ball in your hands as often as another position.

SG by nature will have the ball in their hands and have more leeway to do as they like with it compared to a C.

Really? This is just incorrect. Offensive systems are run to get players the ball. You know the game use to be "pound the ball into the big guy".

The MVP is like the Brownlow. You could be the greatest defensive player of all time and still not win it.

Bill Russell says hi.

Basketball isn't a game of 1 on 1. So irrelevant.

I agree it works both ways. That's why Olajuwan isn't in the top 1000 SG of all time.

I'm not sure where we are going with this. But do you make the same argument in football. e.g. Ablett is the best onballer in the game, not the best player?

IMO Magic Johnson is the GOAT simply because on any given night he could play in any of the 5 postions on the court and still be able to compete at the highest level. That to me is the indication of the most complete basketballer ever to play the game.

I'm sorry, but Magic wouldn't do any better against Olajuwon than MJ. Magic was a very good player, one of the GOAT, but he wasn't a great defensive player in any position, net alone in all 5.

 

[Gus Poyet]

I'm sorry, but Magic wouldn't do any better against Olajuwon than MJ. Magic was a very good player, one of the GOAT, but he wasn't a great defensive player in any position, net alone in all 5.

Ummm Magic played C in a NBA final as a rookie and put up insane numbers. So yeah, Magic would do a far, far better job of playing C than Jordan could.

 

[fidstar]

Ummm Magic played C in a NBA final as a rookie and put up insane numbers. So yeah, Magic would do a far, far better job of playing C than Jordan could.

Magic played one game at center in the NBA finals. It's been probably 5-7 years since I've watched it, but my memory has it that he didn't even play the full game at center (I remember him bringing the ball up the court a bit). Now, he knocked the game out of the park and it is one of the great individual games in NBA finals history, but it was one game against Darrel Dawkins (a solid but not gun center in the league). A center Kareem had been spanking for 33+ points a night.

This does not make him a great center.

 

[Hipster Doofus]

Jason Thompson would have to be up there

 

[Jay-Z]

I've never understood (in any sport) why people want to separate individual players in a GOAT discussion based on championships won by their team. The discussion about whether James is better than Kobe or Jordan always ends up with a bunch of people saying 6 (or 5) > 2. If that's true than why does nobody ever mention Russell as a candidate for #1? Why is Cam Mooney (a 4 time premiership player) not in the top 100 forwards to have played AFL?

 

[fidstar]

I've never understood (in any sport) why people want to separate individual players in a GOAT discussion based on championships won by their team. The discussion about whether James is better than Kobe or Jordan always ends up with a bunch of people saying 6 (or 5) > 2. If that's true than why does nobody ever mention Russell as a candidate for #1? Why is Cam Mooney (a 4 time premiership player) not in the top 100 forwards to have played AFL?

There is a massive difference between an individual in a basketball game (5 players) and a football player (18 players). Also when it comes to the NBA you only look at the best player on the Championship Team (maybe the second), not the others. No one is saying Luc Longley is better than Patrick Ewing because he was won 3 to zero.

Russell is often mentioned among the GOAT. Some people even have him at number 1. What lets him down is that he played in the 60-70s and he wasn't an offensive force.

I do believe championships are overrated when it comes to determining GOAT lists, as so many things need to go right to win one, but it needs to be a consideration.

 

[Jay-Z]

There is a massive difference between an individual in a basketball game (5 players) and a football player (18 players). Also when it comes to the NBA you only look at the best player on the Championship Team (maybe the second), not the others. No one is saying Luc Longley is better than Patrick Ewing because he was won 3 to zero.

Russell is often mentioned among the GOAT. Some people even have him at number 1. What lets him down is that he played in the 60-70s and he wasn't an offensive force.

I do believe championships are overrated when it comes to determining GOAT lists, as so many things need to go right to win one, but it needs to be a consideration.

Fair enough, I just think it is massively overrated. A lot of Kobe fans try to use it as their sole argument to "prove" Kobe > LeBron which is BS

 

[jod23]

Would I get shouted down if I said the following.

LeBron James is overrated.

He is a great player dont get me wrong but IMO he isnt anywhere near Michael Jordan. He has never done anything that has literally blown me away. Ive never seem him truly dominate games from start to finish where I think ... wow their is nothing anyone can do to stop this bloke. Ive never seen him do something special, like a truly memorable moment whereas Jordan has so many moment I lose count.

Ive never seen LeBron hit huge shots in NBA Finals games, close games, game winners or go off for 50 in the Finals. His record of 2-3 hurts him.

Kevin Durant might be better than him but is stuck in the wrong conference.

Say for instance OKC was in the East. Do the Heat win their second title. Do the Heat make the finals the season just gone?

LeBron puts up great numbers and is an absolute beast. But just watching him play, I never really sit back and say... wow this guy is special. He doesnt give me the same feelings as blokes like Magic or Bird or Jordan have done in the past. Even Shaq, when I used to watch him... I'd just think, wow, how do you stop him. He was SO dominant.

I dont get that with LeBron.

You may now all abuse me.

 

[fidstar]

Would I get shouted down if I said the following.

LeBron James is overrated.

He is a great player dont get me wrong but IMO he isnt anywhere near Michael Jordan. He has never done anything that has literally blown me away. Ive never seem him truly dominate games from start to finish where I think ... wow their is nothing anyone can do to stop this bloke. Ive never seen him do something special, like a truly memorable moment whereas Jordan has so many moment I lose count.

Ive never seen LeBron hit huge shots in NBA Finals games, close games, game winners or go off for 50 in the Finals. His record of 2-3 hurts him.

Kevin Durant might be better than him but is stuck in the wrong conference.

Say for instance OKC was in the East. Do the Heat win their second title. Do the Heat make the finals the season just gone?

LeBron puts up great numbers and is an absolute beast. But just watching him play, I never really sit back and say... wow this guy is special. He doesnt give me the same feelings as blokes like Magic or Bird or Jordan have done in the past. Even Shaq, when I used to watch him... I'd just think, wow, how do you stop him. He was SO dominant.

I dont get that with LeBron.

You may now all abuse me.

LeBron biggest problem is that he is not as good as MJ. Nor are the other <insert number of players that have ever played>.

LeBron has had some big moments (obviously not as many as MJ). His 45 points against Boston is as good as any playoff game I have ever seen.

 

[PP34]

Would I get shouted down if I said the following.

LeBron James is overrated.

He is a great player dont get me wrong but IMO he isnt anywhere near Michael Jordan. He has never done anything that has literally blown me away. Ive never seem him truly dominate games from start to finish where I think ... wow their is nothing anyone can do to stop this bloke. Ive never seen him do something special, like a truly memorable moment whereas Jordan has so many moment I lose count.

Ive never seen LeBron hit huge shots in NBA Finals games, close games, game winners or go off for 50 in the Finals. His record of 2-3 hurts him.

Kevin Durant might be better than him but is stuck in the wrong conference.

Say for instance OKC was in the East. Do the Heat win their second title. Do the Heat make the finals the season just gone?

LeBron puts up great numbers and is an absolute beast. But just watching him play, I never really sit back and say... wow this guy is special. He doesnt give me the same feelings as blokes like Magic or Bird or Jordan have done in the past. Even Shaq, when I used to watch him... I'd just think, wow, how do you stop him. He was SO dominant.

I dont get that with LeBron.

You may now all abuse me.

Doesn't help that two of his finals losses have come because his team has been absolutely s**t.

 

[PykeDream]

As a Bulls fan, I'm clearly going to say Jordan>James. However I think at age 30 LBJ is already very close to being the 2nd best to ever play. Say what you will, but the league is surely much, much tougher than it was even twenty years ago - like with every major sport, the fitness and professionalism has gone through the roof.

One thing I absolutely hate about the comparison though, is the 6-0 v 2-3 argument. It means less than nothing at this point in time, particularly in a conference based league.

Jordan had a strong team in 1989 and 1990, but fell short against the Pistons. I fail to see how that is different from LeBron losing as a one man band in 2007 and 2014 - the main difference is MJ ran into the league superpower in the Conference Finals rather than the actual Finals. If LeBron finishes 6-x, then the losses are totally irrelevant. No shame in having made it to the final hurdle and occasionally falling short despite superhuman efforts - that's probably on the GMs of both organisations.

Something will have to go catastrophically wrong for LeBron to finish with just the two rings, and he still has plenty of time to build a legacy that could possibly surpass MJ.

 

[fidstar]

As a Bulls fan, I'm clearly going to say Jordan>James. However I think at age 30 LBJ is already very close to being the 2nd best to ever play. Say what you will, but the league is surely much, much tougher than it was even twenty years ago - like with every major sport, the fitness and professionalism has gone through the roof.

I agree that LeBron has a resume that could him at number 2, but realistically after MJ, you could make an argument for a half dozen players, if not more.

One thing I absolutely hate about the comparison though, is the 6-0 v 2-3 argument. It means less than nothing at this point in time, particularly in a conference based league.

Jordan had a strong team in 1989 and 1990, but fell short against the Pistons. I fail to see how that is different from LeBron losing as a one man band in 2007 and 2014 - the main difference is MJ ran into the league superpower in the Conference Finals rather than the actual Finals. If LeBron finishes 6-x, then the losses are totally irrelevant. No shame in having made it to the final hurdle and occasionally falling short despite superhuman efforts - that's probably on the GMs of both organisations.

Agree and disagree. It should definitely be a factor, but people do over rate it. I give LeBron a free pass for 2007, and 2014 he played well. The Bulls never lost to the Pistons because of MJ's play. LeBron single handily cost Miami a championship against Dallas. That has to be a factor.

Something will have to go catastrophically wrong for LeBron to finish with just the two rings, and he still has plenty of time to build a legacy that could possibly surpass MJ.

You would think he would win more, but nothing is guaranteed. You would have thought the Malone/Stockton combination would have won 1 championship too.