The Best Baller Debate

[peternorth]

jordan had tough TOUGH opposition during the playoffs. look no further than the bad boys of detroit. so much physicality that wore you down mentally as well.

todays game is very different

 

[jod23]

Today's game is a stroll in the park. Go back and watch the bad boys or the Knicks of the early 90's. They punished Jordan and the Bulls. No idea how LeBron would handle it. He would probably cramp up and sit out a few games.

 

[Matera92]

Jordan would carve todays D like nobodys business.

 

[PP34]

Today's game is a stroll in the park. Go back and watch the bad boys or the Knicks of the early 90's. They punished Jordan and the Bulls. No idea how LeBron would handle it. He would probably cramp up and sit out a few games.

It's really not. Sure it's less physical but the sheer effort put into planning for the game outweighs anything from the 90s or 80s.

 

[fidstar]

It's really not. Sure it's less physical but the sheer effort put into planning for the game outweighs anything from the 90s or 80s.

Agreed. But LeBron would be too scared to drive the lane.

 

[jod23]

Jordan would carve todays D like nobodys business.

It would be bordering on abuse what he could do in today's game.

 

[Matera92]

It would be bordering on abuse what he could do in today's game.

Yup, the amount of physical abuse players copped in his era when compared to today is night and day.

He and the other greats from his era must laugh when watching todays game.

 

[didaksrightfoot]

Agreed. But LeBron would be too scared to drive the lane.

I disagree - I think with his physical attributes, if he developed his game being surrounded by that physicality - he is good enough that he would adapt to that very easily, and would not get pushed around. His size would be a massive advantage in that style of game... it wouldn't change how talented he is.

 

[JB_91]

I disagree - I think with his physical attributes, if he developed his game being surrounded by that physicality - he is good enough that he would adapt to that very easily, and would not get pushed around. His size would be a massive advantage in that style of game... it wouldn't change how talented he is.

Yep agree, LeBron would dominate in ANY era. Not a fan or hater of his; just respect the greatness. Question his dominance in another era is just silly.

 

[bkozican]

Jordan would dominate in ANY era, Lebron would dominate in ANY era, Kobe would dominate in ANY era, KD......???

 

[DEVO]

Magic Johnson is the greatest, that is an obvious fact. He could do everything, in any position. His offensive abilities are underestimated as are his defensive abilities. I'm not saying he is as good as Jordan on the defensive end, but his isn't as weak as people say.
And don't judge Magic by his ppg, offensively he is the greatest player we will ever see. Offense is a lot more than just scoring and he is without pier as a creative passer and starting passing chains which were a hallmark of "showtime" basketball, but could also score when required.

Micheal Jordan is one of the greats, but his career achievements have be overblown a bit IMO because they were achieved in one of the weakest era's in basketball, the 90's. Rapid expansion and the end of the Celtic and Laker era's made it easy for the Bulls to dominate.
Chicago may have beaten the Lakers in one of the finals series, but by then the Lakers were in the process of a rebuild, Kareem, Coops and a couple of others had already retired, and Scott and Worthy missed most of the finals series with injury. Chicago did not play the Lakers team that won 5 titles in the previous decade.

LeBron hasn't done enough to warrant comparison. That may change in the next 4 or 5 seasons, but I doubt it, his petulant performances during his first spell in Cleveland will always leave a negative impression with me, in much the same way it has with Kobe and his early performances with the Lakers.

 

[Ashman23]

So Jordan having to find a way past the Pistons counts for nothing? You know, 'The Badboys', a team that had 'The Jordan rules', which was basically to man handle MJ as much as possible.

Magic definitely was versatile, I'll grant that but he had an awesome team around him.

One guy that hardly ever gets mentioned is Oscar Robertson, he apparently was Jordan before Jordan was Jordan.

Jordan for me is GOAT but I can appreciate other opinions as long as LeChoke isn't part of it.

 

[DEVO]

Detroit were a great team but that played a style of Basketball that wasn't going to last more than a few years before cracks began to open and that seemed to happen, they disintergrated almost as quickly as they appeared. Or at least thats how I remember it, within a year or two of their back to back titles they were a shadow of their former selves.

Oscar Robertson was even before my time, I saw a lot of footage of him when I lived in the States as a kid. Personally I wouldn't call him Jordan before Jordan was Jordan as he was more like Magic before Magic was Magic. He was a creative point guard who was able to score, rebound and create for his team mates. He is the only player in history to average a triple-double for an entire season (30.8 points, 12.5 rebounds and 11.4 assists in 1961/62) and in fact in his first five season his averaged 30.3 points, 10.4 rebounds and 10.6 assists per game. He should be in every greatest player ever debate, but I guess because he played 40-50 years ago it's hard know just how good he was and compare to the more recent players.

Personally players like Jerry West, Elgin Baylor and Dr. J are guys I'd call Jordan before Jordan was Jordan, all were electric off guards/small forwards who could pull off the impossible and were amazing in clutch situations. I still think the most outrageous shot I've ever seen (and I saw on live TV when I lived in LA) was Dr. J's layup from behind the back board against the Lakers, he was so far behind the back board his was out of court and yet somehow got his arm under the board and enough spin on the ball to get it through the hoop. Unbelievable.

 

[jod23]

Magic Johnson is the greatest, that is an obvious fact. He could do everything, in any position. His offensive abilities are underestimated as are his defensive abilities. I'm not saying he is as good as Jordan on the defensive end, but his isn't as weak as people say.
And don't judge Magic by his ppg, offensively he is the greatest player we will ever see. Offense is a lot more than just scoring and he is without pier as a creative passer and starting passing chains which were a hallmark of "showtime" basketball, but could also score when required.

Micheal Jordan is one of the greats, but his career achievements have be overblown a bit IMO because they were achieved in one of the weakest era's in basketball, the 90's. Rapid expansion and the end of the Celtic and Laker era's made it easy for the Bulls to dominate.
Chicago may have beaten the Lakers in one of the finals series, but by then the Lakers were in the process of a rebuild, Kareem, Coops and a couple of others had already retired, and Scott and Worthy missed most of the finals series with injury. Chicago did not play the Lakers team that won 5 titles in the previous decade.

LeBron hasn't done enough to warrant comparison. That may change in the next 4 or 5 seasons, but I doubt it, his petulant performances during his first spell in Cleveland will always leave a negative impression with me, in much the same way it has with Kobe and his early performances with the Lakers.

We've been through this bro. Magic is great, IMO probably the second greatest of all time. But he isnt Michael Jordan.

Offensively he isnt the greatest player we will ever see. That is MJ, or maybe Wilt. Magic was a decent scorer, averaging I think 19ppg over his career and yes offense if more than just scoring, Magic set up teammates. But in tight games, key games when you need a bucket. Everyone would rather Jordan, volume scorer who can create his own shot and is incredibly clutch. Magic could score and pass and create but if he did pass and his teammate misses the shot... not good.

I agree that Magic was an underrated defender but he was eon's behind Jordan defensively. Jordan was the ultimate two way player. Magic can never get to that level on the defensive end. He simply cant compare to Jordan.

You can go on about Jordan apparently winning his titles in a weak 90's era? Which is just crap anyways. Sure their were expansion teams that diluted the talent pool. But that meant Jordan had less talent around him also. It's a domino effect.

Magic played in a non expansion league full of really great teams but he also had Worthy, Kareem, Scott, McAdoo, Wilkes, Cooper. Just a HUGELY stacked team. Jordan had Pippen and a bunch of scrubs/role players for the first three. Then Pippen, Rodman and another bunch of role players.

Magic was rolling with like 5 HOFers.

It's all relative bro.

 

[didaksrightfoot]

Magic Johnson is the greatest, that is an obvious fact. He could do everything, in any position. His offensive abilities are underestimated as are his defensive abilities. I'm not saying he is as good as Jordan on the defensive end, but his isn't as weak as people say.
And don't judge Magic by his ppg, offensively he is the greatest player we will ever see. Offense is a lot more than just scoring and he is without pier as a creative passer and starting passing chains which were a hallmark of "showtime" basketball, but could also score when required.

are you actually serious? I don't think even Magic thinks he is the best of all time. (In fact I am pretty sure that both he and Bird have very publicly came out and said that Jordan surpassed the 2 of them)... there really is no basis for that argument.

Magic was great. Top PG of all time, and top 5 all time... but he did not have the type of dominant career that is needed to be considered the greatest.

Also the argument of him playing any position, though factually correct, is often blown out of proportion. He played one game at Centre - and people keep spouting this 5-positions stance. He "could" do it... doesn't mean he did regularly, or that he didn't just play PG 95% of the time. Tim Duncan did a bit of ball-handling in his Junior and Senior years at Wake Forrest - no one is ever gonna come out and say he could play all 5 positions.

Micheal Jordan is one of the greats, but his career achievements have be overblown a bit IMO because they were achieved in one of the weakest era's in basketball, the 90's. Rapid expansion and the end of the Celtic and Laker era's made it easy for the Bulls to dominate.
Chicago may have beaten the Lakers in one of the finals series, but by then the Lakers were in the process of a rebuild, Kareem, Coops and a couple of others had already retired, and Scott and Worthy missed most of the finals series with injury. Chicago did not play the Lakers team that won 5 titles in the previous decade.

Really? based on what? The fact that there were equalisation measures in place? The fact that you couldn't have one or two teams just loaded with talent at the expense of the rest of the league? The fact that a proffesional approach to scouting/training/coaching was universally applied around the league and it wasnt just one or two teams taking advantage of sub-par opponents?

Jordan had to go through a lot of great players and tough teams to win his titles. Yes he did it as the Magic/Bird era's were winding down, but he had to go through the bad-boy pistons, and probably in any other era those Knicks, Jazz, Blazers, Sonics, Suns would've been championship calibre teams. And below that you had a rung of teams like the Pacers and Spurs who were consistently very, very good but where never going to be in with a shot.

When you list the greatest players who never won a title - theres a common thread with all of them... they peaked at the same time as Micheal Jordan... that is really all the evidence you need to show the level of competition he came up against.

 

[DEVO]

Of course I'm serious. I've been watching the NBA since 1979 and I haven't seen a better player than Earvin 'Magic' Johnson. Whether I'm right or wrong (and I know I'm right) who cares, it's just a different opinion.

One thing I will say, your comment about Magic playing Centre being blown out of proportion is a little unfair. He actually played Centre on a number of ocassions, especially early in his career when the Lakers had Norm Nixon as their starting PG. Game 6 is the most memorable and the only game I can remember where he played primarily as the Centre, but he did play it often. In fact in his Rookie Year I think he may have played all positions at various stages during the regular season. Even in his second season he played some minutes in the other positions, but by about 1981 (I think) he was primarily the starting PG.

I consider the nineties the weakest era because the Laker, Celtic, 76'ers and Pistons eras had ended and the rapid expansion that took place reduced the quality of players and game play.

 

[jod23]

Your opinion is wrong

 

[fidstar]

Of course I'm serious. I've been watching the NBA since 1979 and I haven't seen a better player than Earvin 'Magic' Johnson. Whether I'm right or wrong (and I know I'm right) who cares, it's just a different opinion.

You used the words "Magic Johnson is the greatest, that is an obvious fact." and now you have retreated to it's your opinion, which is far more understandable statement (even if completely wrong )

 

[Damon_3388]

Agreed. But LeBron would be too scared to drive the lane.

Why? He's as big as Karl Malone.

 

[QuietB]

I disagree - I think with his physical attributes, if he developed his game being surrounded by that physicality - he is good enough that he would adapt to that very easily, and would not get pushed around. His size would be a massive advantage in that style of game... it wouldn't change how talented he is.

Exactly. LeBron would go alright with Rodman making space for him