News The Do Better Report - 12 Month Review

[jmac70]

i think that indigenous players make a significant contribution to the game and so indigenous people deserve employment as coaches and membership officers and boot studders and any other job in the industry. I'd like to see some at every level...even afl commission

we're certainly not at the same stage of black athletes in the US where they seemed to comprise most of the athletes but none of the coaches or the owners....although i've noticed improvements in recent years in coaches and quarterbacks.......but I would still argue that some clubs in australia have had significant onfield contributions by indigenous players but you just dont see them elsewhere at the clubs.

so its beyond just giving them a handout because of their disadvantage, its a fair payback for their contribution.

The great irony is in posters who claim positive Aboriginal action is prejudicial towards other ethnic groups.

It’s thinly veiled racism.

 

[Markfs]

The great irony is in posters who claim positive Aboriginal action is prejudicial towards other ethnic groups.

It’s thinly veiled racism.

more like trying to pull apart your woke credientials...

btw i did a standing ovation at home for will smith for only slapping chris rock...who was acting as an agent for satan. I just want to get that down in writing in case there's a division bell in the next few hours and the righteous need to be separated from the riff raff...

 

[Kappa]

do you want quotas for all races? do you think it is achievable? how many of the 272 people who work for collingwood would you source from minorities?

That's a question for people like Jmac who support racially based quotas. You can't have a quota for one disadvantaged race then not have one for another disadvantaged race, otherwise that's just racism, a simple fact some people struggle to grasp.

 

[Markfs]

That's a question for people like Jmac who support racially based quotas. You can't have a quota for one disadvantaged race then not have one for another disadvantaged race, otherwise that's just racism, a simple fact some people struggle to grasp.

people going out at night to find indigenous kids who might be in harm's way, is not racism simply because they are targeting indigenous kids. as i said previously, indigenous players have had a big impact on the game. The game deals with indigenous kids a lot. The afl has skills in this area which are beyond a lot of organisations in the community. It has a duty to give something back to indigeous people generally and it has the skills...

but you would prefer the AFL to do nothing because its too hard to balance out the 1000s of minority groups in the community??

i know that you just want to win an argument against the woke...and show off your skills

 

[Markfs]

That's a question for people like Jmac who support racially based quotas. You can't have a quota for one disadvantaged race then not have one for another disadvantaged race, otherwise that's just racism, a simple fact some people struggle to grasp.

just having another go at this from another angle. You would probably say that no quotas means that the most efficient people are getting the jobs. Yes????

well we all know that is utter crap. People who get good jobs tend to know the right people ....live in the right suburbs.... dress in the right clothes.... have the right opportunities..

so dont tell me that quotas are distorting the market or putting inefficent people into jobs.

 

[Kappa]

just having another go at this from another angle. You would probably say that no quotas means that the most efficient people are getting the jobs. Yes????

well we all know that is utter crap. People who get good jobs tend to know the right people ....live in the right suburbs.... dress in the right clothes.... have the right opportunities..

so dont tell me that quotas are distorting the market or putting inefficent people into jobs.

Two completely different issues you're trying to smush together. Nepotism, giving jobs to your friends, of course is terrible and leads to poor results.

And no... I would not say no quotas means the best people get the job, I have never said that, nor said anything even remotely close to that.

 

[sr36]

Two completely different issues you're trying to smush together. Nepotism, giving jobs to your friends, of course is terrible and leads to poor results.

And no... I would not say no quotas means the best people get the job, I have never said that, nor said anything even remotely close to that.

The thing is that for most jobs heaps of people can do the job well and the standard hiring process isn't a particularly good one for differentiating and finding out who will do it slightly better than the other - thus most employers are not only swayed by nepotism but are also swayed by personal factors in the interview and how well the applicant responded and seemed likely to "fit in", which is very culturally biased - factors such as age and appearance also play a big role. Thus a quota system to address imbalances seems appropriate to me.

Footy playing lists are a bit different in that there is a bigger difference between applicants and their previous performance is so heavily scrutinised and thus easier to judge. It's easier to choose between applicants, thus I don't think a quota system is appropriate.

 

[Markfs]

Two completely different issues you're trying to smush together. Nepotism, giving jobs to your friends, of course is terrible and leads to poor results.

And no... I would not say no quotas means the best people get the job, I have never said that, nor said anything even remotely close to that.

Kappy, I'm not engaging in one of your legal jousts..

I was saying that your so-called racism of only helping indigenous people can replace the current nepotism of allowing things to continue as they are. And I ask myself, which is the lesser evil?

We would not be disturbing a perfect world by disrupting the status quo of how people get jobs, because we all know its done by "who you know".

So lets disrupt it by trying to give a little break to a group who rarely know the right people, or rarely go to the right schools etc etc. The alternative is to get bogged down with trying to allocate jobs to thousands of minority groups and we all know that will mean nothing gets done...

And as I said before, indigenous people deserve a break more than iranian migrants, because they have contributed a lot to the game. I call that justice.

 

[jmac70]

Kappy, I'm not engaging in one of your legal jousts..

I was saying that your so-called racism of only helping indigenous people can replace the current nepotism of allowing things to continue as they are. And I ask myself, which is the lesser evil?

We would not be disturbing a perfect world by disrupting the status quo of how people get jobs, because we all know its done by "who you know".

So lets disrupt it by trying to give a little break to a group who rarely know the right people, or rarely go to the right schools etc etc. The alternative is to get bogged down with trying to allocate jobs to thousands of minority groups and we all know that will mean nothing gets done...

And as I said before, indigenous people deserve a break more than iranian migrants, because they have contributed a lot to the game. I call that justice.

It’s also equity.

 

[Anzacday]

Do we really need another thread hijacked by petty arguments?
Seriously, just allow people to have their opinions without having to endlessly question them to justify it.
Rant over.

 

[jmac70]

Do we really need another thread hijacked by petty arguments?
Seriously, just allow people to have their opinions without having to endlessly question them to justify it.
Rant over.

I think Q posted the thread as a good news story.
Next minute…

 

[Kirby]

I think Q posted the thread as a good news story.
Next minute…

Kappa

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

Yet there were 82 Indigenous players in men's footy last year (I think there's about 650-700 players league-wide). So if anything, 5% is an underrepresentatio

I don't know why people bother to argue about it. The quota itself does not seem to be currently set in stone but is rather an ideal to be aimed for. Many believe the number should be applied to our club and others, but in terms of actual players, it seems the quota figure is already exceeded anyway. I don't like quotas but nor do I care if they are exceeded, provided the right person has been selected for the position. In respect of having the skill set, indigenous people are in the driving seat, and there doesn't seem to be any problem meeting a quota in this area of employment.

The same old faces take the field to battle on the indigenous issue. I imagine you all know each other's argument inside out at this stage. The only indigenous issue I comment on these days is Lumumba, and he is not even indigenous - though the 'woke' media would have you believe he speaks for them. Fortunately, he has disappeared off the face of the earth.

 

[sr36]

I don't know why people bother to argue about it. The quota itself does not seem to be currently set in stone but is rather an ideal to be aimed for. Many believe the number should be applied to our club and others, but in terms of actual players, it seems the quota figure is already exceeded anyway. I don't like quotas but nor do I care if they are exceeded, provided the right person has been selected for the position. In respect of having the skill set, indigenous people are in the driving seat, and there doesn't seem to be any problem meeting a quota in this area of employment.

The same old faces take the field to battle on the indigenous issue. I imagine you all know each other's argument inside out at this stage. The only indigenous issue I comment on these days is Lumumba, and he is not even indigenous - though the 'woke' media would have you believe he speaks for them. Fortunately, he has disappeared off the face of the earth.

It's off-field where indigenous footballers haven't been given a look in. The current subsidy for indigenous coaching staff is much better than a quota system though.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

It's off-field where indigenous footballers haven't been given a look in. The current subsidy for indigenous coaching staff is much better than a quota system though.

I would assume that the on-field and coaching employment of indigenous people would compensate for the areas where they are underrepresented. There are obviously going to be jobs more suited to indigenous people and others from which they shy away in society and are underrepresented. I wouldn't want to see a quota system applied which sought to redress the imbalance by creating a quota in non-playing coaching roles. People do best at jobs for which they have an aptitude and an interest.

 

[Quicky]

I'm really pleased to know that we have made real progress addressing shortcomings identified by the report. It's good see follow through.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

I don't know why people bother to argue about it. The quota itself does not seem to be currently set in stone but is rather an ideal to be aimed for. Many believe the number should be applied to our club and others, but in terms of actual players, it seems the quota figure is already exceeded anyway. I don't like quotas but nor do I care if they are exceeded, provided the right person has been selected for the position.

I think the discussion is usually discussed backwards. The take home message should rarely be “we need to employ more indigenous people!” unless you’re really out of whack.

It should be “well if we’re trying to be inclusive and representative in AFL circles, and there are a lot of indigenous players, what sort of percentages of first nation peoples should we see employed at the club?”, “oh ok, we’re nowhere near that?”, “why is that, where are we going wrong/what is creating a barrier to employment of indigenous Australians at our club?”

It needs to be allowed to happen “organically” and viewed from a meta perspective, rather than cherry picking for individual positions or roles (barring the obvious).

 

[Markfs]

I think the discussion is usually discussed backwards. The take home message should rarely be “we need to employ more indigenous people!” unless you’re really out of whack.

It should be “well if we’re trying to be inclusive and representative in AFL circles, and there are a lot of indigenous players, what sort of percentages of first nation peoples should we see employed at the club?”, “oh ok, we’re nowhere near that?”, “why is that, where are we going wrong/what is creating a barrier to employment of indigenous Australians at our club?”

It needs to be allowed to happen “organically” and viewed from a meta perspective, rather than cherry picking for individual positions or roles (barring the obvious).

I disagree. I must be out of whack.

 

[Markfs]

There are obviously going to be jobs more suited to indigenous people and others from which they shy away in society and are underrepresented.

Thats an interesting sentence.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

Thats an interesting sentence.

Why? Think of the people who deliver your parcels. They are likely to be Sikhs. Sikhs dominate the delivery industry, as they do the motor car industry, mechanics and airline pilot jobs in India. They have a flair for driving and tinkering with engines. The Tamils have migrated en masse to countries like Sri Lanka, where the British brought them in to work the tea plantations, a job the local Sinhalese wouldn't do. They are prepared to work hard. But they also dominate the tailoring industry throughout Malaysia and Thailand. On top of that, like the Sikhs, they are intelligent and diligent and over represented in the university systems.

In Australia, our people don't want to work as fruit pickers or in aged care, so we import people to do those jobs. Indians and Phillipinos have great respect for elderly people, so are over represented in that industry.

Chinese are adept at running businesses and looking after finances, hence the success of Singapore or Hong Kong. The Malayans have tended over the years to shy away from intellectual pursuits and have tended to work in more menial jobs. Back in the 60s and 70s, the Malaysian government attempted to positively advantage Malayans by creating a quota for them at universities, resulting in many Chinese students coming here for an education.

Indigenous folk thrive at sports, hence their larger numbers in AFL football. I am not sure they would be as keen to pursue office work or similar as white Australians, but I don't pretend to have any figures to back that up.

All I am suggesting is that different ethnic groups often have a predisposition to wanting to work in certain fields.

But of course all you are interested in is attempting to label racial prejudice where you feel you see it.

 

[Markfs]

Why? Think of the people who deliver your parcels. They are likely to be Sikhs. Sikhs dominate the delivery industry, as they do the motor car industry, mechanics and airline pilot jobs in India. They have a flair for driving and tinkering with engines. The Tamils have migrated en masse to countries like Sri Lanka, where the British brought them in to work the tea plantations, a job the local Sinhalese wouldn't do. They are prepared to work hard. But they also dominate the tailoring industry throughout Malaysia and Thailand. On top of that, like the Sikhs, they are intelligent and diligent and over represented in the university systems.

In Australia, our people don't want to work as fruit pickers or in aged care, so we import people to do those jobs. Indians and Phillipinos have great respect for elderly people, so are over represented in that industry.

Chinese are adept at running businesses and looking after finances, hence the success of Singapore or Hong Kong. The Malayans have tended over the years to shy away from intellectual pursuits and have tended to work in more menial jobs. Back in the 60s and 70s, the Malaysian government attempted to positively advantage Malayans by creating a quota for them at universities, resulting in many Chinese students coming here for an education.

Indigenous folk thrive at sports, hence their larger numbers in AFL football. I am not sure they would be as keen to pursue office work or similar as white Australians, but I don't pretend to have any figures to back that up.

All I am suggesting is that different ethnic groups often have a predisposition to wanting to work in certain fields.

But of course all you are interested in is attempting to label racial prejudice where you feel you see it.

well that seems to be the case. Every tamil I've known wants to tinker with engines. Every malayan doesnt want to use his brain much. Every indigenous person is good at sports. Every white australian wants to be shane warne.

And I wasnt labelling the sentence I quoted as racial prejudice. You just did it then.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

well that seems to be the case. Every tamil I've known wants to tinker with engines. Every malayan doesnt want to use his brain much. Every indigenous person is good at sports. Every white australian wants to be shane warne.

And I wasnt labelling the sentence I quoted as racial prejudice. You just did it then.

You choose to miss the pretty obvious point that I was making just as I choose not to discuss the issue any further with you.

 

[sr36]

The Tamils have migrated en masse to countries like Sri Lanka, where the British brought them in to work the tea plantations, a job the local Sinhalese wouldn't do.

This was actually the British policy - bring in foreign workers - as a minority group they were easier to control - so you see the same thing all over the former British colonies.

 

[sr36]

I would assume that the on-field and coaching employment of indigenous people would compensate for the areas where they are underrepresented. There are obviously going to be jobs more suited to indigenous people and others from which they shy away in society and are underrepresented. I wouldn't want to see a quota system applied which sought to redress the imbalance by creating a quota in non-playing coaching roles. People do best at jobs for which they have an aptitude and an interest.

Despite a heap of fabulous players, there has been a big underrepresentation of indigenous in coaching ranks. Could be for a variety of factors, but I certainly wouldn't rule out cultural bias - either conscious or subconscious. The recent incentive has encouraged teams to add guys like Jetta and Betts to the coaching ranks. I think it's great and hope it continues. Quotas on the other hand are a much more fraught proposition.

One of the issues with only looking at overall club percentages with one area compensating another, rather than by role, is that one of the traditions to break is that various cultures have only been employed in menial roles - ideally you want representation throughout the hierarchy of an organisation.

 

[Markfs]

This was actually the British policy - bring in foreign workers - as a minority group they were easier to control - so you see the same thing all over the former British colonies.

you forgot the word "cheap". The tamils chose not to be given citizenship of sri lanka so many subsequent generations ended up stateless, and they chose to live below the living standard of most sri lankans, probably because they chose to work so cheaply...

you have to wonder why these ethnic groups choose to work so cheaply. They made a series of bad choices. It must be something common to all tamils.