News The Do Better Report - 12 Month Review

[TheGreatGrundy]

I thought this was an interesting read and provides a good insight into the challenges indigenous players face in the AFL.


It was also interesting in the context of the Do Better Report. Particularly considering the discussion in this thread about including other clubs learnings in our process. How do you actually know if you're incorporating good practices? Also considering comments in the Report criticising the AFL and other AFL clubs.

‘The only club I wouldn’t put my hand up for right now’: Why Hawks legend Cyril Rioli has stayed away

It is almost four years since Hawthorn president Jeff Kennett spoke to Cyril Rioli’s wife Shannyn in a manner that ultimately precipitated the champion footballer’s dramatic exit from the football club and the game that he had so richly punctuated for more than a decade.

www.theage.com.au

I have frequently made similar joking comments about designer holey jeans. It has always struck me as strange that people actually pay for new torn jeans. I can't imagine wearing them on a cold winter's day. I loathe Jeff Kennett, but if that is all he said to Cyril's wife, I don't find it particularly offensive. As he said, it is the type of joke he would make to his own children.

 

[Quicky]

I have frequently made similar joking comments about designer holey jeans. It has always struck me as strange that people actually pay for new torn jeans. I can't imagine wearing them on a cold winter's day. I loathe Jeff Kennett, but if that is all he said to Cyril's wife, I don't find it particularly offensive. As he said, it is the type of joke he would make to his own children.

I think it's important to understand the comment in the context of what had happened to Cyril previously at the club and then the response that followed - which reinforced those experiences.

 

[barrackers]

I think it's important to understand the comment in the context of what had happened to Cyril previously at the club and then the response that followed - which reinforced those experiences.

The context of the relationship between people comes into play too. Kennett to his kids would have a stronger bond and therefore greater understanding and foundation for banter. Conversely regardless of race it would be a bit awkward making that joke to a stranger or someone you didn’t know well and even more so if there was pre-existing friction.

I don’t see any racial intent in the joke, but it does highlight that the perception of others can be vastly different. It’s a very blurred line nowadays, so banter is probably best left within closer circles.

I thought the stuff between players/staff and other players was more similar to what’s been raised with the do better report. It confirms my thoughts at the time that the word Collingwood could be taken out of that report and it would apply equally to some other clubs and non-sports organisations.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Looking forward to reading Hawthorns Do Better Review.

 

[potchip]

I have frequently made similar joking comments about designer holey jeans. It has always struck me as strange that people actually pay for new torn jeans. I can't imagine wearing them on a cold winter's day. I loathe Jeff Kennett, but if that is all he said to Cyril's wife, I don't find it particularly offensive. As he said, it is the type of joke he would make to his own children.

Depends on who you make such jokes to. Do you do it to a random woman on the street and think it is within your rights? Here's Jeff's thinking: He's powerful and 'respected' in the hawthorn hierarchy, the Riolis are his 'charges' so to speak and from a position of perceived power he made that comment, for no other purpose than to lightening the mood for himself and himself only. He was not aware, or dismissive of the Rioli's feelings of him from past experiences. He's not aware from that shaky footing any words can be easily interpreted in the negative light. That's just how human brains function.

That comment it self probably is in the same vine of a male making a comment about an unknown female in public. Call it accepted culture, or misogyny depending on your point of view. But the article also talks about how that specific action from Jeff was the straw, and the response from the Hawthorn hierarchy rather than diffusing the situation added weight. They tried to downplay it, influence (pressure) their outcomes, but did not reach out and appear to seek reconciliation. It's a one way street in power dynamics typical of discrimination.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Curious about the “nepotism” comment? Wonder if it refers to father / sons / daughters of which we have 7?

Apparently we should hire people from outside the football industry and who we have never met/played with/ played against…..or preferably never played at all.

 

[Quicky]

The context of the relationship between people comes into play too. Kennett to his kids would have a stronger bond and therefore greater understanding and foundation for banter. Conversely regardless of race it would be a bit awkward making that joke to a stranger or someone you didn’t know well and even more so if there was pre-existing friction.

I don’t see any racial intent in the joke, but it does highlight that the perception of others can be vastly different. It’s a very blurred line nowadays, so banter is probably best left within closer circles.

I thought the stuff between players/staff and other players was more similar to what’s been raised with the do better report. It confirms my thoughts at the time that the word Collingwood could be taken out of that report and it would apply equally to some other clubs and non-sports organisations.

It was a condescending and disrespectful comment from Jeff. The damage is when the apology fell short Jeff spoke over them. He might as well have said shut up and get in your place. Cyril said they were gaslighted and not included in the conversation. It's the same dismissiveness Cyril experienced earlier in his career when he brought up matters regarding race with the club - or remembering times he just kept quiet because he didn't feel safe to speak up. The reaction is understandable.

 

[76woodenspooners]

Apparently we should hire people from outside the football industry and who we have never met/played with/ played against…..or preferably never played at all.

For non-footy department roles, maybe there’s a feeling that the club have preferred ex-footy folks rather than employing the best accountant / IT person / marketing person? Dunno.

 

[Quicky]

This is another interesting article about Buckley reaching out to Leon Davis

Leon Davis

Age

42

Ht

177cm

Wt

80kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.5

3star

K

10.2

4star

HB

3.3

3star

M

3.1

3star

T

2.8

4star

G

1.2

4star

No current season stats available

D

5.0

1star

K

3.6

2star

HB

1.4

2star

M

1.2

2star

T

0.4

3star

G

0.4

3star

about his experiences at the club.

Leons comment at the end is pretty significant (re: the clubs apology in response to the Do Better Report):

“For them to apologise but still believe [they] have done nothing wrong, the apology doesn’t mean s**t,” he told The Age. “It doesn’t hold at all because you don’t understand first and foremost what you are apologising for,” Davis said.

‘I reached out to him’: Nathan Buckley had long talks with Leon Davis on racism

Nathan Buckley had lengthy conversations with former teammate Leon Davis to learn more about the respected Indigenous player’s experiences of racism at Collingwood.

www.theage.com.au

 

[Vicky Park]

Jeff’s comment to Shannyn Rioli in and of itself seems innocuous enough, if perhaps a bit thoughtless or intended (by Jeff) as banter.

But to understand the impact it had you need to recognise the broader context of Cyril’s experience at the club, and the dismissive treatment of Shannyn before and after the comment.

If every thoughtless comment is treated in isolation then we will get nowhere in understanding how racism works. It can be casual, jokey and cast as banter that the recipient ‘should get over’ or ‘forget about’.

This is what our club is trying to be better at, and the Riolis’ experience at Hawthorn just emphasises how pervasive it has been - and probably still is - and how those who don’t experience it can too easily dismiss it.

 

[Pie eyed]

Well,it looks like the club is making progress on the Do Better report,which is good to see.Now I’m waiting to see other AFL clubs join in and tackle the same issue of racism at their own clubs.Surely people aren’t suggesting that we were the only club that experienced internal racism,are they?

You Stoopid?
Of course this is a Collingwood only issue.

 

[MyManLynch]

I think it's important to understand the comment in the context of what had happened to Cyril previously at the club and then the response that followed - which reinforced those experiences.

I also think the attempt to reconcile (using Burgoyne) was not handled well.
Relying on another First Nation player to wallpaper over the cracks (that obviously existed), was probably insulting.
What happened at Collingwood over the years was a microcosm of the entire AFL environment & society in general.
We all have a role to play.

 

[76woodenspooners]

It was a condescending and disrespectful comment from Jeff. The damage is when the apology fell short Jeff spoke over them. He might as well have said shut up and get in your place. Cyril said they were gaslighted and not included in the conversation. It's the same dismissiveness Cyril experienced earlier in his career when he brought up matters regarding race with the club - or remembering times he just kept quiet because he didn't feel safe to speak up. The reaction is understandable.

It’s an interesting one.

Here’s how I guess things like this happen …

… Jeff engaged in some jovial light hearted banter, the kind of banter he would feel comfortable having with friends or family members. It wasn’t race related at all …

… but the moment really bothered Shannyn / Cyril. And the reason it bothered them was not isolated to the incident itself. It was the end of a string of interactions where they felt like they had been disrespected. This wasn’t a 0…100 % in an instant thing like the Ed / Goodes incident, it was something that had been bubbling for years. Each thing might have been a little thing, but they were insidious. Shannyn / Cyril felt like they were being disrespected. Or not getting the respect or love or care or value or validation that they were seeing others around them getting. It might be a little thing, like not acknowledging a “hello” in the corridor. It was all adding up and adding up …

… and the jeans comment tipped it over the edge.

Jeff / Hawthorn FC (and others) see that it was banter about jeans that got taken the wrong way and nothing to do with race. That’s why they see it as an over-reaction. And so the Gaslighting begins (* Note).

Meanwhile Shannyn / Cyril are frustrated that those folks still don’t get it. No point referring to the kazillions of times like when a polite “hello” didn’t get acknowledged … because that would get pointed out as an ”over-reaction” or even a “Sorry, I didn’t see you and probably had my mind on other things“ (Which is exactly the point!)

* Note: We toss around the term “Gaslight“ a bit these days. The OG was a play written in England in the 1930’s. It was turned into two films, the British one made in 1940, and the American one made in 1944. The 1944 American one is the more famous one, in part for Angela Lansbury’s film debut (I haven’t seen it). The 1940 British one is very good and is on YouTube (below). Worth a watch IMO. Amazing to see how much the world has changed in a mere 80 years. And it defines the term “Gaslighting“ perfectly … it’s evil, truly evil.

 

[76woodenspooners]

Jeff’s comment to Shannyn Rioli in and of itself seems innocuous enough, if perhaps a bit thoughtless or intended (by Jeff) as banter.

But to understand the impact it had you need to recognise the broader context of Cyril’s experience at the club, and the dismissive treatment of Shannyn before and after the comment.

If every thoughtless comment is treated in isolation then we will get nowhere in understanding how racism works. It can be casual, jokey and cast as banter that the recipient ‘should get over’ or ‘forget about’.

This is what our club is trying to be better at, and the Riolis’ experience at Hawthorn just emphasises how pervasive it has been - and probably still is - and how those who don’t experience it can too easily dismiss it.

+ I wouldn’t say it’s isolated to racism either. It’s general respect for a fellow human regardless of any ism, especially when they‘re a part of your organisation. It’s important for leaders to connect with the people of the organisation.

 

[Masked Magician]

Do we have an issue here with Wrighty? Could this blow up like the media can and will the hawks leak to make GW look bad?

The below are 2 mentions of GW in the article.

In the days that followed the exchange between Shannyn and a man she barely knew, her husband Cyril missed training and a crisis developed with a number of top-level club meetings involving Kennett, football boss Graham Wright, coach Alastair Clarkson, Rioli’s manager Adam Ramanauskas

Adam Ramanauskas

Age

43

Ht

184cm

Wt

84kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

15.0

4star

K

9.6

4star

HB

5.3

4star

M

4.1

4star

T

1.8

4star

No current season stats available

D

8.4

3star

K

5.4

2star

HB

3.0

3star

M

2.4

3star

T

1.6

4star

and teammate Shaun Burgoyne

9

Shaun Burgoyne

Age

41

Ht

186cm

Wt

89kg

Pos.

D/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

18.0

4star

K

9.9

4star

HB

8.1

5star

M

3.5

4star

T

3.8

5star

MG

162.7

3star

D

10.0

3star

K

5.6

2star

HB

4.4

3star

M

1.7

2star

T

2.6

4star

MG

162.7

3star

D

6.2

2star

K

3.2

2star

HB

3.0

3star

M

1.2

2star

T

1.6

4star

among others.

Football boss Wright visited Shannyn and she says he wondered aloud whether the Kennett comments had triggered some bad memories from her childhood. Wright told The Age he had no recollection of making this comment.

 

[Markfs]

It seems a lot of people didnt read the story

Shannyn and Lulu - who had designed the Hawks’ Indigenous round guernsey used that day against Port Adelaide - were chatting when Kennett commented upon Shannon’s designer ripped jeans. According to Shannyn, Kennett asked her what was wrong with her jeans. After making a retort about his boots, she asked Kennett: “What’s wrong with what I’m wearing, Jeffrey?”

The Hawks president then placed his hands in his pockets and offered her, he says as a joke, loose change to buy thread to sew up the jeans.

If some smart ass comments on your fashion sense, that's one thing, but putting your hand in your pocket is only something you would do with a close mate. I know on a personal level, if Jeffrey decided to lay that "joke" on me, I'd be happy to leave that club and go elsewhere. What a f### snob... As for racism, I have no idea, but it's elitest and snobby and typical of the arrogance that he's displayed over the last few decades.

No wonder he ends up depressed when he has to look at his face in the mirror every day.

 

[Markfs]

i doubt

We toss around the term “Gaslight“ a bit these days. The OG was a play written in England in the 1930’s. It was turned into two films, the British one made in 1940, and the American one made in 1944. The 1944 American one is the more famous one, in part for Angela Lansbury’s film debut (I haven’t seen it). The 1940 British one is very good and is on YouTube (below). Worth a watch IMO. Amazing to see how much the world has changed in a mere 80 years. And it defines the term “Gaslighting“ perfectly … it’s evil, truly evil.

Nice to see that you're educating people - including me - with new terms that come into the english language. The Quick said that Rioli said that he was gaslit.....somehow i just can visualise that. It must be time for someone to use to word woke, which is another meaningless word.

 

[76woodenspooners]

Nice to see that you're educating people - including me - with new terms that come into the english language. The Quick said that Rioli said that he was gaslit.....somehow i just can visualise that. It must be time for someone to use to word woke, which is another meaningless word.

Yeah, unfortunately the term “gaslighting” often isn’t properly understood. And it is often misused.

Also, it’s one of those terms that is in eye of the beholder which makes it prone to misuse.

Example of gaslighting …

Markfs and Alex Waitslitz are walking down the street in opposite directions. Markfs is studiously looking where he’s going. Alex is on his phone weaving all over the footpath, not looking where he is going. Markfs can’t avoid him and braces for contact …

Markfs: “Oops, sorry”

Alex: “And so you should be, you should look where you are going”

Markfs: “I was, you were the one on your phone weaving along the footpath not looking where you were going!”

Alex: “If you were watching where you were going then you wouldn’t have bumped into me, now would you? But look, it’s all OK, I forgive you, look there’s an optometrist across the road, let’s get your eyesight checked out and we can get you some glasses if you need them. Don’t worry about the cost, I’m a very generous person and I’ll cover it, you can thank me for it later …”

An example of what is NOT gaslighting …

Bob: “I’m sorry George, we’re going to have to let you go from this company. You’re unreliable, you’re always late to work - if you bother to turn up at all. You take excessive breaks. You always leave early. You don’t seem able to do your job and the quality of your work is demonstrably very poor. You’re disruptive to your colleagues.”

George: “STOP GASLIGHTING ME!!!”

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

I think it's important to understand the comment in the context of what had happened to Cyril previously at the club and then the response that followed - which reinforced those experiences.

Maybe from Cyril's point of view, but I am looking at Kennett's comment as an isolated incident. Kennett cannot be expected to be able to contextualise his remark. If it's something he says to his children and others, then there is no malice or prejudice behind the comment.

 

[legendstatus]

Can the righteous on this thread ( you know who you are ) start a “do better” report petition from the Dorks please. Be disappointed if nothing comes from you lot?


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[76woodenspooners]

Maybe from Cyril's point of view, but I am looking at Kennett's comment as an isolated incident. Kennett cannot be expected to be able to contextualise his remark. If it's something he says to his children and others, then there is no malice or prejudice behind the comment.

Context is more complex than that.

Take another example: the classic “roasting” … just because someone feels comfortable roasting their mates in the cricket team, it doesn’t mean they should roast their Mum, their grandmother, or their kids or their priest.

 

[sideswipe]

Maybe from Cyril's point of view, but I am looking at Kennett's comment as an isolated incident. Kennett cannot be expected to be able to contextualise his remark. If it's something he says to his children and others, then there is no malice or prejudice behind the comment.

You seriously can’t see that the President of a football club making a mock offer of cash to an indigenous Australian along with the question, “can’t you afford thread?” has the potential to offend?

And it is not about “contextualising” Kennett’s comment, it’s about how the Riolis felt the club handled the matter after the club was informed it had caused offence.

Analysing whether any of us find the comment objectionable is completely irrelevant.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[76woodenspooners]

You seriously can’t see that the President of a football club making a mock offer of cash to an indigenous Australian along with the question, “can’t you afford thread?” has the potential to offend?

And it is not about “contextualising” Kennett’s comment, it’s about how the Riolis felt the club handled the matter after the club was informed it had caused offence.

Analysing whether any of us find the comment objectionable is completely irrelevant.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

You could argue that if Hawthorn had been the kind of organisation that could handle the aftermath properly and respectfully …

… it would also be the kind of organisation where this wouldn’t have happened in the first place.

Culture.

 

[MyManLynch]

Context is more complex than that.

Take another example: the classic “roasting” … just because someone feels comfortable roasting their mates in the cricket team, it doesn’t mean they should roast their Mum, their grandmother, or their kids or their priest.

Chris Rock experienced that…this week.

 

[Finnishpie]

I thought this was an interesting read and provides a good insight into the challenges indigenous players face in the AFL.


It was also interesting in the context of the Do Better Report. Particularly considering the discussion in this thread about including other clubs learnings in our process. How do you actually know if you're incorporating good practices? Also considering comments in the Report criticising the AFL and other AFL clubs.

‘The only club I wouldn’t put my hand up for right now’: Why Hawks legend Cyril Rioli has stayed away

It is almost four years since Hawthorn president Jeff Kennett spoke to Cyril Rioli’s wife Shannyn in a manner that ultimately precipitated the champion footballer’s dramatic exit from the football club and the game that he had so richly punctuated for more than a decade.

www.theage.com.au

It was interesting... We need to send them the do better report.