Analysis The Way Forward

[DobmusEdge]

Wasn’t sure where to put this but want to raise the co-captaincy mix - are we in for a changing of the guard?

After 2016 gf Horse stood down Jack and McVeigh after 4 years and went with the short lived JPK as sole captain model. McVeigh was 31 and Jack 29 (and showing signs of being cooked already)

After 2012, goodsey stood aside at 32.

Last offseason JPK stood down at 33

Rampe is 32 and in natural decline - is he still the right fit for this team? Maybe he is, but this team actually belongs to the young cohort now - it is their team with Mills the real captain. Chad and Errol have captaincy written all over them but as third and second year players this would be premature (remember Grimes and Trengove - oh boy)

Ramps has been a sensational clubman for a decade now - but he was s**t on Saturday, did absolutely nothing of value. Not that he was alone but he’s also part of that 2014 gf debacle (along with Lloyd, Lance,
Thoughts?

 

[DobmusEdge]

Good enough for Goodes.

Good enough for Kennedy.

Good enough for O’Keefe.

Team first.

Let the futures of the Swans have first crack if they train well over the off season. If they struggle or get injured, then Franklin comes in. If they don’t struggle and don’t get injured, why play an increasingly limited player in their last year?

For the record, I am confident Buddy will play a significant role in patches of games next year. But I don’t think it hurts the club to signal where the future lies and help address the habit of our players kicking to buddy when he is not in the best position.

Teddy, Grundy, Jack too …I think ramps at 33 might be their a bit too next year ..Gould is ready

Give McDonald the license to be the main Man - he is our future

 

[RedBloodBlackSwan]

Wasn’t sure where to put this but want to raise the co-captaincy mix - are we in for a changing of the guard?

After 2016 gf Horse stood down Jack and McVeigh after 4 years and went with the short lived JPK as sole captain model. McVeigh was 31 and Jack 29 (and showing signs of being cooked already)

After 2012, goodsey stood aside at 32.

Last offseason JPK stood down at 33

Rampe is 32 and in natural decline - is he still the right fit for this team? Maybe he is, but this team actually belongs to the young cohort now - it is their team with Mills the real captain. Chad and Errol have captaincy written all over them but as third and second year players this would be premature (remember Grimes and Trengove - oh boy)

Ramps has been a sensational clubman for a decade now - but he was s**t on Saturday, did absolutely nothing of value. Not that he was alone but he’s also part of that 2014 gf debacle (along with Lloyd, Lance,
Thoughts?

Yeah good questions. It is hard to think of who should be captain after it was our leaders let us down in the GF.

I’d like the captain to be someone who (1) sets expectations, (2) leads by example and (3) makes the players around them better.

It’s hard to tell from outside the club but my sense is:

Rampe does 3 really well and has been good at 2 (though is waning) but has never been super strong at 1.

Parker does 2 very well, 1 a little bit and not so much 3.

Mills generally has a good balance across the three attributes, though was poor on GF day and still feels a bit green.

Chad and Errol have the potential to get there by are not ready yet.

Heeney does 2 well but is inconsistent. Not sure he does a lot lot of 3 or 1.

Papley is a little out there. I think he can do each criteria really well but is inconsistent across all three.

I’m not sure of anyone else in contention.

You could probably find 5 players in Geelong who meet the criteria better than any of our players, and I think therein lies the rub. Our experienced players are not leaders or are waning and our youth is a little while off.

I think we need to be patient. The list will mature with time.

For next year, I would stick with Mills and Parker and drop Rampe. If we wanted a third, I would be interested in Papley - he strikes me as someone who never thought of himself as a leader but could be a good one if he knew the club believed in him. He just signed a long term contract too.

 

[DobmusEdge]

Yeah good questions. It is hard to think of who should be captain after it was our leaders let us down in the GF.

I’d like the captain to be someone who (1) sets expectations, (2) leads by example and (3) makes the players around them better.

It’s hard to tell from outside the club but my sense is:

Rampe does 3 really well and has been good at 2 (though is waning) but has never been super strong at 1.

Parker does 2 very well, 1 a little bit and not so much 3.

Mills generally has a good balance across the three attributes, though was poor on GF day and still feels a bit green.

Chad and Errol have the potential to get there by are not ready yet.

Heeney does 2 well but is inconsistent. Not sure he does a lot lot of 3 or 1.

Papley is a little out there. I think he can do each criteria really well but is inconsistent across all three.

I’m not sure of anyone else in contention.

You could probably find 5 players in Geelong who meet the criteria better than any of our players, and I think therein lies the rub. Our experienced players are not leaders or are waning and our youth is a little while off.

I think we need to be patient. The list will mature with time.

For next year, I would stick with Mills and Parker and drop Rampe. If we wanted a third, I would be interested in Papley - he strikes me as someone who never thought of himself as a leader but could be a good one if he knew the club believed in him. He just signed a long term contract too.

Yeah Papley signing announced since I posted this morning …much better than any trade news

 

[caesar88]

Wasn’t sure where to put this but want to raise the co-captaincy mix - are we in for a changing of the guard?

After 2016 gf Horse stood down Jack and McVeigh after 4 years and went with the short lived JPK as sole captain model. McVeigh was 31 and Jack 29 (and showing signs of being cooked already)

After 2012, goodsey stood aside at 32.

Last offseason JPK stood down at 33

Rampe is 32 and in natural decline - is he still the right fit for this team? Maybe he is, but this team actually belongs to the young cohort now - it is their team with Mills the real captain. Chad and Errol have captaincy written all over them but as third and second year players this would be premature (remember Grimes and Trengove - oh boy)

Ramps has been a sensational clubman for a decade now - but he was s**t on Saturday, did absolutely nothing of value. Not that he was alone but he’s also part of that 2014 gf debacle (along with Lloyd, Lance,
Thoughts?

I posited that there may be some changes to the leadership group to better reflect where the list is at - ie Buddy now in his last year, Cunningham not even in the 22, Kennedy retired. I think that will be the extent of it as the co-captains still all feel like the most logical choices (though I could also see Rampe stepping down and the other two being co-captains as he enters the twilight of his career.)

I think since so much of the team are young players in that under 23/24 group now, it'd be beneficial for a few formal leaders to actually be their peers. We've heard so much about how close that younger cohort are on and off the field, so to have some leadership representation among them would be a good thing, and I think that's where those kids you mentioned like Gulden, Warner etc. may come into the fold.

 

[Dubai Quacker]

Wasn’t sure where to put this but want to raise the co-captaincy mix - are we in for a changing of the guard?

After 2016 gf Horse stood down Jack and McVeigh after 4 years and went with the short lived JPK as sole captain model. McVeigh was 31 and Jack 29 (and showing signs of being cooked already)

After 2012, goodsey stood aside at 32.

Last offseason JPK stood down at 33

Rampe is 32 and in natural decline - is he still the right fit for this team? Maybe he is, but this team actually belongs to the young cohort now - it is their team with Mills the real captain. Chad and Errol have captaincy written all over them but as third and second year players this would be premature (remember Grimes and Trengove - oh boy)

Ramps has been a sensational clubman for a decade now - but he was s**t on Saturday, did absolutely nothing of value. Not that he was alone but he’s also part of that 2014 gf debacle (along with Lloyd, Lance,
Thoughts?

Rampe is a sensational on-field leader.

For as long as he’s in the team, I’m happy he’s a captain.

And I think it’s wrong to say he was s**t in the GF. He was constantly forced to repel the flood of i50’s - he didn’t star, but he certainly wasn’t our worst!

 

[The King!]

I like 1 captain

Mills

 

[AG]

I think I'm over the GF performance now and it was a shocking game but our list is in good shape. As others have said, we just need the younger guys to hit the weights room and keep building strength. Geelong would have smashed anyone on the day but it did look like boys v men.

Ruck my main concern. Reid, Hickey and Naismith aren't the most reliable physically. At some point Hickey's body will say enough is enough. Not sold on Ladhams yet.

 

[RedBloodBlackSwan]

I hope the club (coaches and team mates) put a lot of tough love into Ladhams over the off season. Next year will be the year that makes him or breaks him after missing a massive opportunity this year.

I suspect there are some big mental demons he will need to overcome to make it, but if he does he could become our best ruck in years - strong, forceful, skilful, plus the mental strength from knowing he found a way.

His potential is enormous but he seems very close to throwing it away. A real knife’s edge situation.

 

[Kiama Chris]

Good series of posts about the captaincy with a lot of thought.
I think we'd all agree that Parker and Mills should continue on. The question is Rampe:
1) Continue
2) Stop
3) Stop and replace
I'd continue for one more year then replace with Gulden if he has the chops by then or Papley.
Heeney concentrates on his game. Not a captain in my view. No-one else is jumping out at me.
Not sure about the VFL guys as a potential skipper.

 

[The King!]

so much of the captaincy happens out out of sight for the fans imo

 

[Deccas]

so much of the captaincy happens out out of sight for the fans imo

Yeah aa few young players have mentioned Dane by name as one of the most important leaders for them personally.

 

[RedBloodBlackSwan]

Good series of posts about the captaincy with a lot of thought.
I think we'd all agree that Parker and Mills should continue on. The question is Rampe:
1) Continue
2) Stop
3) Stop and replace
I'd continue for one more year then replace with Gulden if he has the chops by then or Papley.
Heeney concentrates on his game. Not a captain in my view. No-one else is jumping out at me.
Not sure about the VFL guys as a potential skipper.

Yeah, I think you are right. So long as Rampe is best 22 he should still be a captain.

I think Mills still needs to grow into the role a bit and as you say other players need more time before they can be captain. Time is our friend at the moment.

 

[Nuggetz]

2023 redemption year.

 

[momentbymoment]

I think trying to pin it on personnel doesn't make too much sense - we were good enough to get into the Grand Final, we beat every other top 4 team throughout the year.

The coaching group needs to figure out how to develop some killer instinct. It's been a real recurring theme under Longmire - how many times do we get into a winning position and then put the cue in the rack and play out the game? When it comes to the biggest game of the year we come out flat. In our last 3 Grand Finals, we've been outscored 29 to 88. That to me points to a real failure of preparation and not being able to live up to the occasion.

Struggling to understand why there is not more discussion about this.

 

[Vin Rogue]

Good series of posts about the captaincy with a lot of thought.
I think we'd all agree that Parker and Mills should continue on. The question is Rampe:
1) Continue
2) Stop
3) Stop and replace
I'd continue for one more year then replace with Gulden if he has the chops by then or Papley.
Heeney concentrates on his game. Not a captain in my view. No-one else is jumping out at me.
Not sure about the VFL guys as a potential skipper.

Rampe in the twilight of his career will only be assured of a game if he finds a new role that his body assets and liabilities will allow him to perform. For this reason I do not like the idea of him being a formal leader. He will continue to be an on field leader when playing, regardless of his official designation. Ramps cannot give away a foot or more in height anymore. Could he be our Nick Smith facsimile? Could he play the lock down defender on a small dangerous forward or has his speed and agility waned too far? His aerial ability and his reading of the play should stand him in good stead against a small forward. But can he switch mode to defence first and one on one?

 

[mtooler]

The way forward should be straight to our thread "Season in a picture/gif" should be some rippers in there!

 

[GoTheSwannies]

I've said previously that the club needs to do a review of what went wrong on GF day. Given it has happened to us 2 out of the last 3 GFs we've played in, we need to do a thorough review. While Warner's comments aren't new, I think that's the starting point. Based on his comments below, they had belief, but it was that something extra that Chad couldn't put his finger on, that was missing, and it's up to the coaches to figure it out, and work on instilling that killer instinct.

The one thing that really stood out was this comment: "...I don’t know whether it was the occasion or we just thought it would happen". It was just an off-the-cuff remark, but to me it was a telling one, and a fair question to ponder on. I can guarantee that the cats didn't think it would just happen, they came out with the intent to make it happen, so I feel as though 'mindset' going into a game (and GFs in particular) is an area that requires a lot of work, and is perhaps an area that Horse has overlooked. All the rhetoric around "It's just another game", "just focus on the basics and the rest will sort itself out" etc. doesn't cut it in a GF, and I hope Horse & co. learn from it and address it.

Warner:
“We were really confident and I don’t know whether it was the occasion or we just thought it would happen but something obviously went wrong out there,” he said.

“I think we got overwhelmed as well at one point and just couldn’t contain it.

“It’s hard after the game. I was just absolutely cooked. I feel like I tried as hard as I could, which is annoying in itself as well, knowing you’ve done everything and they still pump you by 80 points.”

https://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/afl-2022-sydney-rising-star-chad-warner-reveals-his-devastation-as-geelong-crushes-swans-premiership-dream/news-story/dc04c837672686398813640875cd4690

 

[caesar88]

I don't know why 2016 gets a free pass. It didn't end up the massacre that 2014 or this year did, and we probably still win it if it weren't for the despicable umpiring, but we played bloody ordinary compared to how we'd played throughout that season, and you could count on one hand the number of Swans players who actually had good games that day. It wasn't awful but relative to our capacity it was another failure to launch.

Horse needs to look at how he's approaching these grand finals, as something's obviously not working. I don't doubt for a second that he's a great coach and the right coach for us, but that won't count for much if we just become the club that underperforms in grand finals.

 

[The King!]

I don't know why 2016 gets a free pass. It didn't end up the massacre that 2014 or this year did, and we probably still win it if it weren't for the despicable umpiring, but we played bloody ordinary compared to how we'd played throughout that season, and you could count on one hand the number of Swans players who actually had good games that day. It wasn't awful but relative to our capacity it was another failure to launch.

Horse needs to look at how he's approaching these grand finals, as something's obviously not working. I don't doubt for a second that he's a great coach and the right coach for us, but that won't count for much if we just become the club that underperforms in grand finals.

The starts , including 2012 are awful, something is off with his prep

 

[GoTheSwannies]

I think our performance was acceptable in 2016, we had a very young group, with a lot of green players across the ground. X.Richards, Mills, Heeney, Papley, Hewett. Took in two underdone players in Mills and McVeigh. Buddy rolled his ankle in the first quarter, Hanners was taken out in the 4th. And then there was the umpiring. Everything was against us.

 

[RedBloodBlackSwan]

I've said previously that the club needs to do a review of what went wrong on GF day. Given it has happened to us 2 out of the last 3 GFs we've played in, we need to do a thorough review. While Warner's comments aren't new, I think that's the starting point. Based on his comments below, they had belief, but it was that something extra that Chad couldn't put his finger on, that was missing, and it's up to the coaches to figure it out, and work on instilling that killer instinct.

The one thing that really stood out was this comment: "...I don’t know whether it was the occasion or we just thought it would happen". It was just an off-the-cuff remark, but to me it was a telling one, and a fair question to ponder on. I can guarantee that the cats didn't think it would just happen, they came out with the intent to make it happen, so I feel as though 'mindset' going into a game (and GFs in particular) is an area that requires a lot of work, and is perhaps an area that Horse has overlooked. All the rhetoric around "It's just another game", "just focus on the basics and the rest will sort itself out" etc. doesn't cut it in a GF, and I hope Horse & co. learn from it and address it.

Warner:
“We were really confident and I don’t know whether it was the occasion or we just thought it would happen but something obviously went wrong out there,” he said.

“I think we got overwhelmed as well at one point and just couldn’t contain it.

“It’s hard after the game. I was just absolutely cooked. I feel like I tried as hard as I could, which is annoying in itself as well, knowing you’ve done everything and they still pump you by 80 points.”

https://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/afl-2022-sydney-rising-star-chad-warner-reveals-his-devastation-as-geelong-crushes-swans-premiership-dream/news-story/dc04c837672686398813640875cd4690

Yeah, there is something there that they have to uncover.

Watching the NRL Grand Final, where Parra got smashed as bad as Swans did, it struck me what someone said after the game: “Parramatta came prepared as though it was any other game, while Penrith came to play a Grand Final”.

There has to be space between “do the basics we have been doing all year and everything will take care of itself” (which seems to be the Swans approach) and “it’s a GF so try to do something amazing everytime you get near the ball” (which is what can happen when teams get carried away).

A GF is not just a contest of processes, structures and preparation - it is a battle of wills and steely resolve.

Surely our mindset can be “it’s a GF so do the basics *ing well and hit every contest *ing hard because there is no next week - you were born to play today so make the most of your moment, express yourself fully and play your natural game, just remember to do the basics *ing well and beat those other *ers in the intensity you bring. If you are tired and sore then run faster and hit harder because those other *ers are more tired and more sore than you are, and you are not letting them take that *ing premiership off our club - grind those *ers into the *ing dirt, defend to the death, pressure, pressure, pressure. This is our *ing year”

 

[KingV23]

Yeah, there is something there that they have to uncover.

Watching the NRL Grand Final, where Parra got smashed as bad as Swans did, it struck me what someone said after the game: “Parramatta came prepared as though it was any other game, while Penrith came to play a Grand Final”.

There has to be space between “do the basics we have been doing all year and everything will take care of itself” (which seems to be the Swans approach) and “it’s a GF so try to do something amazing everytime you get near the ball” (which is what can happen when teams get carried away).

A GF is not just a contest of processes, structures and preparation - it is a battle of wills and steely resolve.

Surely our mindset can be “it’s a GF so do the basics *ing well and hit every contest *ing hard because there is no next week - you were born to play today so make the most of your moment, express yourself fully and play your natural game, just remember to do the basics *ing well and beat those other *ers in the intensity you bring. If you are tired and sore then run faster and hit harder because those other *ers are more tired and more sore than you are, and you are not letting them take that *ing premiership off our club - grind those *ers into the *ing dirt, defend to the death, pressure, pressure, pressure. This is our *ing year”

Thanks alot. Its 10pm, I got work early tomorrow, and now I want to hit the gym because of you.

 

[GoTheSwannies]

Yeah, there is something there that they have to uncover.

Watching the NRL Grand Final, where Parra got smashed as bad as Swans did, it struck me what someone said after the game: “Parramatta came prepared as though it was any other game, while Penrith came to play a Grand Final”.

There has to be space between “do the basics we have been doing all year and everything will take care of itself” (which seems to be the Swans approach) and “it’s a GF so try to do something amazing everytime you get near the ball” (which is what can happen when teams get carried away).

A GF is not just a contest of processes, structures and preparation - it is a battle of wills and steely resolve.

Surely our mindset can be “it’s a GF so do the basics *ing well and hit every contest *ing hard because there is no next week - you were born to play today so make the most of your moment, express yourself fully and play your natural game, just remember to do the basics *ing well and beat those other *ers in the intensity you bring. If you are tired and sore then run faster and hit harder because those other *ers are more tired and more sore than you are, and you are not letting them take that *ing premiership off our club - grind those *ers into the *ing dirt, defend to the death, pressure, pressure, pressure. This is our *ing year”

That's exactly it. Well said.

Some players just have that mentality and resolve to go harder and keep working when others have already given up. But how do you get the whole team (or at least a strong majority) to adopt that mindset. That's the million dollar question. I hope horse and co are working on the solution.

 

[RedBloodBlackSwan]

That's exactly it. Well said.

Some players just have that mentality and resolve to go harder and keep working when others have already given up. But how do you get the whole team (or at least a strong majority) to adopt that mindset. That's the million dollar question. I hope horse and co are working on the solution.

I’ve said it before somewhere, but for me it was all summed up by Henney’s challenge on Touhy at the very start on Geelong’s forward half flank.

It was such a H&A move but Touhy was at another level. Heeney shouldn’t lose 1-1’s to Touhy so comprehensively. It just sums up where the teams’ mindsets were at.