Review Views on our off season/list changes

[kenneje]

It’s been a massive off season for us in terms of rejuvenating/turning over our list.

There’s been notable retirements, free agents brought in, depth traded away and players brought in via trades and the draft.

—
Here’s a list of the ins and outs just to refresh your memory;

OUT:

Brad Sewell (retired) - Midfielder
Kyle Cheney (traded) - Defender
Mitch Hallahan (traded) - Midfielder
Jordan Kelly (delisted) - Defender
Luke Lowden (traded) - Ruckman
Ben Ross (delisted) - Midfielder
Derick Wanganeen (delisted) - Utility
Dayle Garlett (delisted) - ********

IN:
James Frawley (free agent) - Defender
James O’Rourke (trade) - Midfielder
Daniel Howe (draft) - Defender (Midfielder?)
Tia Miles (draft) - Defender
Marc Pittonet (draft) - Ruckman
Jared Hardisty (rookie) - Midfielder
Jermaine Miller-Lewis (rookie) - Forward
Lachlan Langford (rookie) - Utility?
—

When we first started being linked to James Frawley during the middle of the season, a lot of people weren’t sold on the idea of bringing him in.
Whether that was due to likely having to overpay, the fact he wasn’t dominating in an abortion of a football team or better options to spend our Judascocainefcuk money on, I don’t know, but I’d say since he was officially brought in, the general feeling has been joy.

A few posters made it clear that the aim of the Hawthorn list management team was to bring in a talented young midfielder that could help players like Hill, Breust, Langford, Anderson and Woodward slowly take over from Burgoyne, Hodge, Mitchell, Sewell etc.
O’Rourke was the answer, and opinion seems to be split.
I think it’s a bargain, but we’ll have to wait a few years until we see the players taken around 19-30 in the draft perform in relation.

The loss of Sewell, Cheney, Hallahan and Lowden will effect our depth, but if senior players can perform the same as they have this year then the new additions should soften the blow and hopefully improve our best 22.

I’m excited about all of the new draftees, but in particular Marc Pittonet. Proper ruckman that was arguably the best performed in the draft.
—

I’d love to read the opinions of some experienced mock draftees like Knightmare Snoop Dog Chris25 Skippos on our recruitments, but also non Hawks supporters to get a different sort of biased view.

And mainly, please god, just bring on the 2015 season NOW!

 

[Knightmare]

No real major pieces Hawthorn will struggle without lost. Sewell's experience and big body was useful, and Hallahan has the opportunity to be a long term player and Ross, Lowden and Cheney as depth were all again sufficient depth without being major losses.

--
On the additions I like the way Hawthorn have gone about it and particularly during trade week/free agency with Hawthorn during that period consistently one of the best in the business by addressing list needs but then also by really bringing in guys who can play good footy and improve the teams best 22. By doing that Hawthorn continue to get better and give the recruiters freedom to pick who they see as the best player there which is the methodology I advocate and feel Hawthorn of all clubs do to a league best standard.

Frawley is a big time get. Lake is in his 30s now and is probably in his final season. Gaining Frawley who is excellent by position and a second high level key defender is a big win with those key position stocks beyond Roughead/Lake and Gunston depending on if you see him as a key forward otherwise a relative list weakness.

O'Rourke I also really like the addition of. The Hawthorn midfield is starting to age with many of those premier mids nearing the end and many of those younger guys relatively shorter and less explosive so O'Rourke for me is a really nice list fit. Additionally I see him as a good value get where in most years I'd say he is worth a pick in the 10-15 range and again getting him with those couple of years in the AFL system as a win now situation also works.

As for the list additions through the draft. I'd definitely have Hawthorn in the worse half based on my own personal draft ratings. Perhaps even as low as bottom two to four in this draft period if I was to directly associate Hawthorn's picks relative to where I had them on my draft board.

Howe as a list addition is fine. I liked some other options more at that point more but he'll offer some versatility as someone who can play well enough back, forward or through the midfield. Pretty good athlete. Uses it pretty well. Strong enough overhead. Not overly damaging but he can play a role potentially.

Miles is a small midfielder/defender. Does most things pretty well. Very quick. Efficient ball user. Production pretty good. Just small, light bodied and down back particularly I like a bit more height and size for AFL level and on the outside perhaps a bit more hurt-factor than he can provide which is why he doesn't appear on my draft board.

Pittonet is a guy I felt was taken too early as more a rookie pick. He is competitive enough through the ruck and is a big boy but doesn't find much of the footy and isn't a marking threat forward of centre and as such he doesn't feature on my draft board. He has small hands for a ruckman (22cm - 31st percentile at the draft combine) which will limit his overhead marking ability and he also isn't a massive leaper with a 63cm vertical (45th percentile) and a running vertical of 66cm (25th percentile). His beep test score was poor with only an 11,7 (in the bottom 0% at the draft combine) and similarly his 3km time was poor, though those endurance aspects can be improved in an AFL environment with work.

Hardisty as a rookie I consider a poor selection. He can find and win the footy but is a low impact per disposal guy and for those who watched the u18 champs he was the slowest and least mobile guy out there even if his testing suggests otherwise. As a sub 180cm guy who is slow/immobile and can't do any meaningful damage he isn't someone I would have selected myself.

Miller-Lewis as a rookie though I very much like the selection of. He is a nice height, terrific athlete who can really run and take on the game and do some special things but then also has some real aggressiveness to him which I also really like. He missed this year with injury and his production last year was fairly mild but given his mix of traits he is an appropriate rookie selection who with improvement has the scope to offer something at the next level.

The younger Langford I'm not even aware I've seen so I won't be able to give you anything on him. I believe he played APS footy this year - was it Melbourne Grammar? I'm sure if HawthornFC haven't put some notes up on him on their website they will put up something telling you who he is/why he was worth picking. But if he develops like his brother then who knows.

--
Are Hawthorn better or worse?

I'm going with better. It doesn't necessarily mean another premiership is happening with those three-peats a challenge and with so many stars in the later years of their careers further premierships with this group is far from guaranteed. But on paper for me it's a better team with as mentioned before no major losses and Frawley and O'Rourke particularly as two really bid gains for Hawthorn.

 

[Stratton_Gun]

Knightmare, how are you not a recruiter?

 

[Hawthorn23]

Knightmare, how are you not a recruiter?

Maybe he is!

 

[becalm]

No real major pieces Hawthorn will struggle without lost. Sewell's experience and big body was useful, and Hallahan has the opportunity to be a long term player and Ross, Lowden and Cheney as depth were all again sufficient depth without being major losses.

--
On the additions I like the way Hawthorn have gone about it and particularly during trade week/free agency with Hawthorn during that period consistently one of the best in the business by addressing list needs but then also by really bringing in guys who can play good footy and improve the teams best 22. By doing that Hawthorn continue to get better and give the recruiters freedom to pick who they see as the best player there which is the methodology I advocate and feel Hawthorn of all clubs do to a league best standard.

Frawley is a big time get. Lake is in his 30s now and is probably in his final season. Gaining Frawley who is excellent by position and a second high level key defender is a big win with those key position stocks beyond Roughead/Lake and Gunston depending on if you see him as a key forward otherwise a relative list weakness.

O'Rourke I also really like the addition of. The Hawthorn midfield is starting to age with many of those premier mids nearing the end and many of those younger guys relatively shorter and less explosive so O'Rourke for me is a really nice list fit. Additionally I see him as a good value get where in most years I'd say he is worth a pick in the 10-15 range and again getting him with those couple of years in the AFL system as a win now situation also works.

As for the list additions through the draft. I'd definitely have Hawthorn in the worse half based on my own personal draft ratings. Perhaps even as low as bottom two to four in this draft period if I was to directly associate Hawthorn's picks relative to where I had them on my draft board.

Howe as a list addition is fine. I liked some other options more at that point more but he'll offer some versatility as someone who can play well enough back, forward or through the midfield. Pretty good athlete. Uses it pretty well. Strong enough overhead. Not overly damaging but he can play a role potentially.

Miles is a small midfielder/defender. Does most things pretty well. Very quick. Efficient ball user. Production pretty good. Just small, light bodied and down back particularly I like a bit more height and size for AFL level and on the outside perhaps a bit more hurt-factor than he can provide which is why he doesn't appear on my draft board.

Pittonet is a guy I felt was taken too early as more a rookie pick. He is competitive enough through the ruck and is a big boy but doesn't find much of the footy and isn't a marking threat forward of centre and as such he doesn't feature on my draft board. He has small hands for a ruckman (22cm - 31st percentile at the draft combine) which will limit his overhead marking ability and he also isn't a massive leaper with a 63cm vertical (45th percentile) and a running vertical of 66cm (25th percentile). His beep test score was poor with only an 11,7 (in the bottom 0% at the draft combine) and similarly his 3km time was poor, though those endurance aspects can be improved in an AFL environment with work.

Hardisty as a rookie I consider a poor selection. He can find and win the footy but is a low impact per disposal guy and for those who watched the u18 champs he was the slowest and least mobile guy out there even if his testing suggests otherwise. As a sub 180cm guy who is slow/immobile and can't do any meaningful damage he isn't someone I would have selected myself.

Miller-Lewis as a rookie though I very much like the selection of. He is a nice height, terrific athlete who can really run and take on the game and do some special things but then also has some real aggressiveness to him which I also really like. He missed this year with injury and his production last year was fairly mild but given his mix of traits he is an appropriate rookie selection who with improvement has the scope to offer something at the next level.

The younger Langford I'm not even aware I've seen so I won't be able to give you anything on him. I believe he played APS footy this year - was it Melbourne Grammar? I'm sure if HawthornFC haven't put some notes up on him on their website they will put up something telling you who he is/why he was worth picking. But if he develops like his brother then who knows.

--
Are Hawthorn better or worse?

I'm going with better. It doesn't necessarily mean another premiership is happening with those three-peats a challenge and with so many stars in the later years of their careers further premierships with this group is far from guaranteed. But on paper for me it's a better team with as mentioned before no major losses and Frawley and O'Rourke particularly as two really bid gains for Hawthorn.

This hand size and marking ability is a new one for me. I suppose it helps if you have large hands, but surely being able to anticipate ball flight and body positioning are more important. Also I believe very important is having soft hands.

 

[kenneje]

No real major pieces Hawthorn will struggle without lost. Sewell's experience and big body was useful, and Hallahan has the opportunity to be a long term player and Ross, Lowden and Cheney as depth were all again sufficient depth without being major losses.

--
On the additions I like the way Hawthorn have gone about it and particularly during trade week/free agency with Hawthorn during that period consistently one of the best in the business by addressing list needs but then also by really bringing in guys who can play good footy and improve the teams best 22. By doing that Hawthorn continue to get better and give the recruiters freedom to pick who they see as the best player there which is the methodology I advocate and feel Hawthorn of all clubs do to a league best standard.

Frawley is a big time get. Lake is in his 30s now and is probably in his final season. Gaining Frawley who is excellent by position and a second high level key defender is a big win with those key position stocks beyond Roughead/Lake and Gunston depending on if you see him as a key forward otherwise a relative list weakness.

O'Rourke I also really like the addition of. The Hawthorn midfield is starting to age with many of those premier mids nearing the end and many of those younger guys relatively shorter and less explosive so O'Rourke for me is a really nice list fit. Additionally I see him as a good value get where in most years I'd say he is worth a pick in the 10-15 range and again getting him with those couple of years in the AFL system as a win now situation also works.

As for the list additions through the draft. I'd definitely have Hawthorn in the worse half based on my own personal draft ratings. Perhaps even as low as bottom two to four in this draft period if I was to directly associate Hawthorn's picks relative to where I had them on my draft board.

Howe as a list addition is fine. I liked some other options more at that point more but he'll offer some versatility as someone who can play well enough back, forward or through the midfield. Pretty good athlete. Uses it pretty well. Strong enough overhead. Not overly damaging but he can play a role potentially.

Miles is a small midfielder/defender. Does most things pretty well. Very quick. Efficient ball user. Production pretty good. Just small, light bodied and down back particularly I like a bit more height and size for AFL level and on the outside perhaps a bit more hurt-factor than he can provide which is why he doesn't appear on my draft board.

Pittonet is a guy I felt was taken too early as more a rookie pick. He is competitive enough through the ruck and is a big boy but doesn't find much of the footy and isn't a marking threat forward of centre and as such he doesn't feature on my draft board. He has small hands for a ruckman (22cm - 31st percentile at the draft combine) which will limit his overhead marking ability and he also isn't a massive leaper with a 63cm vertical (45th percentile) and a running vertical of 66cm (25th percentile). His beep test score was poor with only an 11,7 (in the bottom 0% at the draft combine) and similarly his 3km time was poor, though those endurance aspects can be improved in an AFL environment with work.

Hardisty as a rookie I consider a poor selection. He can find and win the footy but is a low impact per disposal guy and for those who watched the u18 champs he was the slowest and least mobile guy out there even if his testing suggests otherwise. As a sub 180cm guy who is slow/immobile and can't do any meaningful damage he isn't someone I would have selected myself.

Miller-Lewis as a rookie though I very much like the selection of. He is a nice height, terrific athlete who can really run and take on the game and do some special things but then also has some real aggressiveness to him which I also really like. He missed this year with injury and his production last year was fairly mild but given his mix of traits he is an appropriate rookie selection who with improvement has the scope to offer something at the next level.

The younger Langford I'm not even aware I've seen so I won't be able to give you anything on him. I believe he played APS footy this year - was it Melbourne Grammar? I'm sure if HawthornFC haven't put some notes up on him on their website they will put up something telling you who he is/why he was worth picking. But if he develops like his brother then who knows.

--
Are Hawthorn better or worse?

I'm going with better. It doesn't necessarily mean another premiership is happening with those three-peats a challenge and with so many stars in the later years of their careers further premierships with this group is far from guaranteed. But on paper for me it's a better team with as mentioned before no major losses and Frawley and O'Rourke particularly as two really bid gains for Hawthorn.

Thanks for that mate, an unbelievably in depth right up and I'm sure I can speak for all of us and say we appreciate the effort you put into all of this. A realistic recap on our draft is also nice to read.

 

[Knightmare]

This hand size and marking ability is a new one for me. I suppose it helps if you have large hands, but surely being able to anticipate ball flight and body positioning are more important. Also I believe very important is having soft hands.

Hand size is a part of it. Not the whole picture as you rightly identified. Just as clean hands overhead again and ability to read it is part of it but not the whole picture.

You can be Peter Wright with hands 25.4cm (97th percentile) and be 203.3cm and have exceptionally clean and soft hands overhead as a guy who you can deliver it to and he'll cleanly, one grab take it every time without exception at training or during the warm-up. But then in his case he has the issue of not taking the mark v contact whether it is contact to the body or contact to the aim and for that reason is an ineffective contested mark unless he can push his opponent off balance or create that separation to take the mark cleanly and unopposed.

So while handsize is not the be-all-end-all it is a component to those really strong marks that is advantageous by position to phrase it that way.

As for guys with big hands who can take a grab. A famous historic one is Stewart Loewe for those who remember that guy. Big, strong guy but enormous hands. As an NBA fan I also see similar and in basketball it's a lot more prominent and noted among the scouting community. But a guy like Kwame Brown who was picked number one overall in from memory it was 2001. His issue as a big where you need those in the same way big guy traits as in the AFL is that he had small hands and as a result he struggled particularly with taking rebounds and also had some well documented clean hands issues.

In this draft as two examples of guys with big hands. Liam Dawson a 189cm tall utility taken by Brisbane through their academy. He has the biggest hands in this draft class of those tested at the draft combine with 26.8cm hands. He also is one of the very strongest marks overhead (also aided by his ability to read the flight). Then Reece McKenzie equal second with Peter Wright for size of hands is probably the strongest pure contested marking junior I've seen where you could belt him and he'll take it strongly at the highest point to a pretty much undefendable level. So while I haven't completed a study on hand size correlating to better ability to take a grab it's something just seeing some of the guys with the biggest hands coming through something I do consider if it's a position where overhead marking ability is important to be a critical factor in that assessment.

 

[Brant]

It’s been a massive off season for us in terms of rejuvenating/turning over our list.

There’s been notable retirements, free agents brought in, depth traded away and players brought in via trades and the draft.

—
Here’s a list of the ins and outs just to refresh your memory;

OUT:

Brad Sewell (retired) - Midfielder
Kyle Cheney (traded) - Defender
Mitch Hallahan (traded) - Midfielder
Jordan Kelly (delisted) - Defender
Luke Lowden (traded) - Ruckman
Ben Ross (delisted) - Midfielder
Derick Wanganeen (delisted) - Utility
Dayle Garlett (delisted) - ********

I’d love to read the opinions of some experienced mock draftees like Knightmare Snoop Dog Chris25 Skippos on our recruitments, but also non Hawks supporters to get a different sort of biased view.

And mainly, please god, just bring on the 2015 season NOW!

I'm slightly concerned that losing Buddy & Garlett in successive years may have left us light on with regard to ********s, where as $ydney, our main rival, seem to be stockpiling them - almost attracting them at will...

 

[kenneje]

I'm slightly concerned that losing Buddy & Garlett in successive years may have left us light on with regard to ********s, where as $ydney, our main rival, seem to be stockpiling them - almost attracting them at will...

Hahaha. It would seem Webster is making a late charge to be our #1 ********.

 

[daniel23]

Knightmare great input , I'm very much the same with you on hardisty waste of a pick but happy to be proven wrong, i like our national selections obviously not players that were rated as highly as others based on phantom drafts but it seems we target good footskills, great work ethic and versatility , miles and howe fit those , with howe i think his last game really would have swayed the club in choosing him over others if he could transition to a permanent mid and win outside ball he could be very damaging, pittonet i don't mind we needed a ruck and perhaps he went early but I'm happy to have him over anyone else taken as a ruck man after him

 

[Xtreme]

Age will be Hawthorn's biggest hurdle, with the older playing list that can lead to injuries to a lot of them. I hope they get lots of TLC at the massage table between matches.

And the fact that it's only a matter of time before the rest of the competition to catch up to Hawthorn's standard of play (excluding Essendon and Collingwood of course).

Hawthorn have a cracking list though, remain injury free and they should make finals.

 

[eldorado]

Hand size is a part of it. Not the whole picture as you rightly identified. Just as clean hands overhead again and ability to read it is part of it but not the whole picture.

...

So while handsize is not the be-all-end-all it is a component to those really strong marks that is advantageous by position to phrase it that way.

I'm told by other draft analysts that the number of hands is equally important...

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

I'm slightly concerned that losing Buddy & Garlett in successive years may have left us light on with regard to ********s, where as $ydney, our main rival, seem to be stockpiling them - almost attracting them at will...

Yeah, but what about on-field?

 

[TyHawk]

No real major pieces Hawthorn will struggle without lost. Sewell's experience and big body was useful, and Hallahan has the opportunity to be a long term player and Ross, Lowden and Cheney as depth were all again sufficient depth without being major losses.

--
On the additions I like the way Hawthorn have gone about it and particularly during trade week/free agency with Hawthorn during that period consistently one of the best in the business by addressing list needs but then also by really bringing in guys who can play good footy and improve the teams best 22. By doing that Hawthorn continue to get better and give the recruiters freedom to pick who they see as the best player there which is the methodology I advocate and feel Hawthorn of all clubs do to a league best standard.

Frawley is a big time get. Lake is in his 30s now and is probably in his final season. Gaining Frawley who is excellent by position and a second high level key defender is a big win with those key position stocks beyond Roughead/Lake and Gunston depending on if you see him as a key forward otherwise a relative list weakness.

O'Rourke I also really like the addition of. The Hawthorn midfield is starting to age with many of those premier mids nearing the end and many of those younger guys relatively shorter and less explosive so O'Rourke for me is a really nice list fit. Additionally I see him as a good value get where in most years I'd say he is worth a pick in the 10-15 range and again getting him with those couple of years in the AFL system as a win now situation also works.

As for the list additions through the draft. I'd definitely have Hawthorn in the worse half based on my own personal draft ratings. Perhaps even as low as bottom two to four in this draft period if I was to directly associate Hawthorn's picks relative to where I had them on my draft board.

Howe as a list addition is fine. I liked some other options more at that point more but he'll offer some versatility as someone who can play well enough back, forward or through the midfield. Pretty good athlete. Uses it pretty well. Strong enough overhead. Not overly damaging but he can play a role potentially.

Miles is a small midfielder/defender. Does most things pretty well. Very quick. Efficient ball user. Production pretty good. Just small, light bodied and down back particularly I like a bit more height and size for AFL level and on the outside perhaps a bit more hurt-factor than he can provide which is why he doesn't appear on my draft board.

Pittonet is a guy I felt was taken too early as more a rookie pick. He is competitive enough through the ruck and is a big boy but doesn't find much of the footy and isn't a marking threat forward of centre and as such he doesn't feature on my draft board. He has small hands for a ruckman (22cm - 31st percentile at the draft combine) which will limit his overhead marking ability and he also isn't a massive leaper with a 63cm vertical (45th percentile) and a running vertical of 66cm (25th percentile). His beep test score was poor with only an 11,7 (in the bottom 0% at the draft combine) and similarly his 3km time was poor, though those endurance aspects can be improved in an AFL environment with work.

Hardisty as a rookie I consider a poor selection. He can find and win the footy but is a low impact per disposal guy and for those who watched the u18 champs he was the slowest and least mobile guy out there even if his testing suggests otherwise. As a sub 180cm guy who is slow/immobile and can't do any meaningful damage he isn't someone I would have selected myself.

Miller-Lewis as a rookie though I very much like the selection of. He is a nice height, terrific athlete who can really run and take on the game and do some special things but then also has some real aggressiveness to him which I also really like. He missed this year with injury and his production last year was fairly mild but given his mix of traits he is an appropriate rookie selection who with improvement has the scope to offer something at the next level.

The younger Langford I'm not even aware I've seen so I won't be able to give you anything on him. I believe he played APS footy this year - was it Melbourne Grammar? I'm sure if HawthornFC haven't put some notes up on him on their website they will put up something telling you who he is/why he was worth picking. But if he develops like his brother then who knows.

--
Are Hawthorn better or worse?

I'm going with better. It doesn't necessarily mean another premiership is happening with those three-peats a challenge and with so many stars in the later years of their careers further premierships with this group is far from guaranteed. But on paper for me it's a better team with as mentioned before no major losses and Frawley and O'Rourke particularly as two really bid gains for Hawthorn.

Brilliant write up mate, thanks for your input much appreciated.

 

[Davo-27]

i feel our list got stronger after the trade/draft period, we didn't lose much at all, probably our biggest loss was Cheney who was our 4th or 5th tallish defender..........i mean Sewell was good for maybe 10 games a year at varying effect, Lowden was wasting away in our reserves seeing as we have 3 quality Rucks already, i personally didn't rate Hallahan so when he was offloaded it didn't surprise me, Kelly was a vanilla defender and Garlett left the club only to get locked up, the 2 rookies in Ross and Wanganeen just weren't up to scratch

so what did we bring in? we brought in an experienced tall defender in Frawley who even though he has one of the worst win rates, think Spider Everitt type losing record, comes as a solid bodied defender who has generally performed well, we picked up O'Rourke, even though he hasn't set the world on fire, he has potential under the right circumstances to be decent, maybe even a regular AFL player, i don't feel like he has star potential, Howe wasn't highly rated because most of his footy was played as a 3rd forw/def and those types don't get the hype mids and KP's do, but he played a few games as mid and impressed with a 3 gl performance and good clerances in the u/18 finals, i like Miles as a running defender, i think he could take Birchall/Sucklings spot that they inhabit now in a few years, Pittonet seems a smart Ruckman, i personally dont like taking 18-19 yr old Ruckmen in the draft, Hardisty i didn't like the look of, but he seems to me that he could be a decent to high level VFL player, but i doubt he will make it in the AFL, Miller-Lewis is the pick of our rookies, liked the look of him, medium sized lanky forward with alot of skill and x-factor, Langford seems a major gamble by the club, he is as tall as his dad and has dark hair, so if he can develop a similar build to Chris could be exciting, but i doubt anyone knows much about what he can produce...

OUT:

Brad Sewell (retired) - Midfielder
Kyle Cheney (traded) - Defender
Mitch Hallahan (traded) - Midfielder
Jordan Kelly (delisted) - Defender
Luke Lowden (traded) - Ruckman
Ben Ross (delisted) - Midfielder
Derick Wanganeen (delisted) - Utility
Dayle Garlett (delisted) - ********

IN:
James Frawley (free agent) - Defender
James O’Rourke (trade) - Midfielder
Daniel Howe (draft) - Defender (Midfielder?)
Tia Miles (draft) - Defender
Marc Pittonet (draft) - Ruckman
Jared Hardisty (rookie) - Midfielder
Jermaine Miller-Lewis (rookie) - Forward
Lachlan Langford (rookie) - Utility?

 

[savagelunchbox]

Knightmare, how are you not a recruiter?

Because despite his long, detailed posts, his strike rate is very, very low and his assessment of players is very basic, just worded long and creatively.

Credit goes to the time and effort he puts in though.

 

[becalm]

Hand size is a part of it. Not the whole picture as you rightly identified. Just as clean hands overhead again and ability to read it is part of it but not the whole picture.

You can be Peter Wright with hands 25.4cm (97th percentile) and be 203.3cm and have exceptionally clean and soft hands overhead as a guy who you can deliver it to and he'll cleanly, one grab take it every time without exception at training or during the warm-up. But then in his case he has the issue of not taking the mark v contact whether it is contact to the body or contact to the aim and for that reason is an ineffective contested mark unless he can push his opponent off balance or create that separation to take the mark cleanly and unopposed.

So while handsize is not the be-all-end-all it is a component to those really strong marks that is advantageous by position to phrase it that way.

As for guys with big hands who can take a grab. A famous historic one is Stewart Loewe for those who remember that guy. Big, strong guy but enormous hands. As an NBA fan I also see similar and in basketball it's a lot more prominent and noted among the scouting community. But a guy like Kwame Brown who was picked number one overall in from memory it was 2001. His issue as a big where you need those in the same way big guy traits as in the AFL is that he had small hands and as a result he struggled particularly with taking rebounds and also had some well documented clean hands issues.

In this draft as two examples of guys with big hands. Liam Dawson a 189cm tall utility taken by Brisbane through their academy. He has the biggest hands in this draft class of those tested at the draft combine with 26.8cm hands. He also is one of the very strongest marks overhead (also aided by his ability to read the flight). Then Reece McKenzie equal second with Peter Wright for size of hands is probably the strongest pure contested marking junior I've seen where you could belt him and he'll take it strongly at the highest point to a pretty much undefendable level. So while I haven't completed a study on hand size correlating to better ability to take a grab it's something just seeing some of the guys with the biggest hands coming through something I do consider if it's a position where overhead marking ability is important to be a critical factor in that assessment.

Yes I remember Buckets.

 

[Steven Tyler]

Because despite his long, detailed posts, his strike rate is very, very low and his assessment of players is very basic, just worded long and creatively.

Credit goes to the time and effort he puts in though.

Or he works for Carlton

 

[becalm]

Hand size is a part of it. Not the whole picture as you rightly identified. Just as clean hands overhead again and ability to read it is part of it but not the whole picture.

You can be Peter Wright with hands 25.4cm (97th percentile) and be 203.3cm and have exceptionally clean and soft hands overhead as a guy who you can deliver it to and he'll cleanly, one grab take it every time without exception at training or during the warm-up. But then in his case he has the issue of not taking the mark v contact whether it is contact to the body or contact to the aim and for that reason is an ineffective contested mark unless he can push his opponent off balance or create that separation to take the mark cleanly and unopposed.

So while handsize is not the be-all-end-all it is a component to those really strong marks that is advantageous by position to phrase it that way.

As for guys with big hands who can take a grab. A famous historic one is Stewart Loewe for those who remember that guy. Big, strong guy but enormous hands. As an NBA fan I also see similar and in basketball it's a lot more prominent and noted among the scouting community. But a guy like Kwame Brown who was picked number one overall in from memory it was 2001. His issue as a big where you need those in the same way big guy traits as in the AFL is that he had small hands and as a result he struggled particularly with taking rebounds and also had some well documented clean hands issues.

In this draft as two examples of guys with big hands. Liam Dawson a 189cm tall utility taken by Brisbane through their academy. He has the biggest hands in this draft class of those tested at the draft combine with 26.8cm hands. He also is one of the very strongest marks overhead (also aided by his ability to read the flight). Then Reece McKenzie equal second with Peter Wright for size of hands is probably the strongest pure contested marking junior I've seen where you could belt him and he'll take it strongly at the highest point to a pretty much undefendable level. So while I haven't completed a study on hand size correlating to better ability to take a grab it's something just seeing some of the guys with the biggest hands coming through something I do consider if it's a position where overhead marking ability is important to be a critical factor in that assessment.

Therefore surprising Reece McKenzie went so late in the draft.

 

[Knightmare]

Because despite his long, detailed posts, his strike rate is very, very low and his assessment of players is very basic, just worded long and creatively.

Credit goes to the time and effort he puts in though.

I only work to improve with each season and expand what I do. 2012 I aimed to get my strike rate up the top end right and I feel with that top 10 I outperformed the pros. Macrae I had at 3 overall of those available to pick. Wines at 4 overall and Grundy at 5 overall. That worked out pretty well for me. Then O'Rourke and Plowman who both went top 3 I had at 11 and 16 respectively (though that includes two F/S (Daniher/Viney) and two Minidraft (O'Meara/Crouch) players in front of them) and that also as it turns out also went my way.

In 2013 I went for quantity of draft profiles and I doubled my frequency of bios.

And this year I've gone the detail route which I also feel is a step up from the what prior to this year were fairly general and low detail writeups which I imagine you're more so alluding to.

--
For those who are interested in my strike rate the below will give you a better indication of my strike rate or lack thereof.

--

You might be interested to know that had Hawthorn followed my power rankings in 2013 the result could have been:
24. Lewis Taylor (Rising star winner - best available and 15 on my draft board) - Billy Hartung is good and has the opportunity to have a strong career but I'd be taking last years rising star winner.
38. Mitch Thorp (Undrafted and to be realistic not getting another chance with a disappointing season in the SANFL this season after this dominant season in Tassie the year prior) - In saying that you'd take him over Dayle Garlett? No?
56. Jonathon Marsh (Still raw but for those VFL watchers his transformation from inconsistent forward to lock-down key defender and a lock-down key defender who beats his guy most weeks I've found impressive. Wouldn't be a bad list fit for Hawthorn either) - though in watching Sicily perform strongly at VFL level this year I also think you'll be happy with how that works out.
RD.
17. James Battersby (Picked by Adelaide in the rookie draft and delisted) - Willsmore was the pick here and a well identified pick given he is getting upgraded onto the senior list.
33. Ben Sokol (Undrafted - playing a mix of WAFL League and Reserves footy) - Wanganeen was since been delisted so no winner.
48. Darcy Hourigan (Undrafted - playing a mix of SANFL League and Reserves footy) - Zac Webster was the pick and as it turns out a well identified pick with a chance to make the grade and has since been upgraded onto the senior list so Hawthorn get the points here.

--
And in 2012:
28. Tom Clurey (Clurey as fate has it went the selection after Hawthorn. I still like him as a key defender and still favour him to Tim O'Brien but inconclusive at this stage as to who develops into the better pro until they've had more years in the system)
66. Harley Montgomery (Undrafted playing mostly SANFL reserves in 2013 and not aware what he did this year) - Kaiden Brand was the pick and given he is still on the list you'd credit Hawthorn with the points, but against the odds he makes the grade.
70. Anthony Tipungwuti (Undrafted and looks unlikely to get a chance but exciting at VFL level) - Michael Osborne was the pick here and he still played some further games so again Hawthorn get the points.
RD.
15. Tom Langdon (Undrafted in 2012 and picked the following year by Collingwood) - John Ceglar was the pick here for the Hawthorn and he is serviceable by position but I'd be taking Langdon myself and back him to have the better career.
28. Louis Herbert (Undrafted in 2012 and picked the following year by Gold Coast as a rookie and NEAFL form promising) - You'd take that over an Irish rookie who is no longer a part of the club. I believe at the time the Irish rookies were part of the primary rookie list or was 2011 the last season of that? In any case Herbert was that next on my list and while it will be hard to get games with GC I still like his talent and think he has a chance to make the grade.

--
Overall between Hawthorn's picks and mine I'd say I've picked the two best of that group in Lewis Taylor and Tom Langdon who also would in those years be the better of those recruiting choices from this list but Hawthorn have had a relatively more consistent strike rate with more of these guys in the system/still in the system.

So to compare my results directly with Hawthorn's given I am a one person recruiting team, not in conversation with other "pro recruiters" and without their stat or footage resources I'd like to think I hold my own relatively for someone outside the system.

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I do this on the Pies board also but if Hawks fans want to follow my picks v Hawthorn's from this year based on my draft board as seen in the phantom draft area my picks would go as follows based on my understanding of player availability:

Pick 31 - Connor Blakely (Went 3 picks later to Freo - looks a beauty. Dominant tall mid and still growing. Nice skillset. He can be another David Mundy)
Pick 49 - Reece McKenzie (The talk was he would go late draft so understanding this I would have taken Blakely first and take the chance on R.McKenzie being here - evidence of this thought process here: http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threa...iscussion-to-new-draft-review-thread.1082299/)
Pick 50 - Oscar McDonald (Went to Melbourne at 53 and was a bargain here. Brother of Tom and every bit as good for those who have seen his TAC Cup form. Also really liked Dean Gore here but had McDonald more highly ranked)
RD.
18. Peter Bampton (Undrafted and I see no reason why he won't come back next year and get drafted. Dominant ball winning midfielder who is well performed at SANFL League level)
36. Brett Eddy (Undrafted and the best immediate key forward outside the AFL - Would have loved Fordham here but went to North at 33)
53. Garrett McDonagh (Undrafted and one of the best kicks in last years draft class, but that is his trick - Would have loved Nic Newman here but went to Sydney at 35)

Happy to come back to this one in a few years time and re-assess regardless of the result and hopefully someone bumps this thread as it's always interesting to look back in reflection. R.McKenzie and McDonald as KPPs will both need time and talls need those four years to develop typically so we'll by then have more information on them, then. But I'm pretty confident in my evaluation of this years prospects and given how high I had some of these guys.. Blakely at 7 on my draft board and R.McKenzie at 6 (and that's with Heeney and Moore ahead of them as preselected guys) and then Bampton who was overlooked I had at 31 as a guy I'd still very willingly take. Those ones for me will be the ones that will really define whether I'm making progress or not.

 

[Knightmare]

Therefore surprising Reece McKenzie went so late in the draft.

McKenzie is a big boy. 197cm, 107kg officially.

He had a 10 goal, 4 behind, 13 mark (8 contested) game in the TAC Cup v Eastern.
Along with other games of 7 goals 5 behinds, 12 marks (6 contested) and another with 6 goals, 2 behinds, 13 marks (7 contested).

The lad is a monster. Improving rapidly. Also a star basketball player and spent last year playing basketball and not footy and returned this year to footy. Freak athlete with a 2.87sec 20m sprint (equal best at the combine with Pickett) and a top 10 standing vertical. Has the equal second biggest hands at the draft combine. But then has that strength overhead - taking it at the highest point consistently regardless of contact. And if things work out (which are never guaranteed) he could be the best of the bigs in this draft class. All ticks in my book.

I've been listening out since the draft and he has the Richmond players and coaches excited at training with some of his work v the key defenders at the club. He is already proving for them a difficult matchup so give him time and if he puts in the work he could really be a big time key forward at the next level.

 

[Rioli magic]

I only work to improve with each season and expand what I do.

...

Lunchbox is the last poster you need to justify your contributions with, he's an empty can.

Personally I appreciate the effort you put in and respect the fact you put your balls on the line and back your judgement, even though I personally don't agree with all of your assessments.

 

[seysearles]

Dayle Garlett (delisted) - ********

I'm slightly concerned that losing Buddy & Garlett in successive years may have left us light on with regard to ********s, where as $ydney, our main rival, seem to be stockpiling them - almost attracting them at will...

tee hee hee

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Because despite his long, detailed posts, his strike rate is very, very low and his assessment of players is very basic, just worded long and creatively.

Credit goes to the time and effort he puts in though.

Tell us what you really think, Sav.

 

[seysearles]

15. Tom Langdon (Undrafted in 2012 and picked the following year by Collingwood) - John Ceglar was the pick here for the Hawthorn and he is serviceable by position but I'd be taking Langdon myself and back him to have the better career.

Surely you jest.