Who is the best Key Defender of the 21st Century?

[Noidnadroj]

What I am saying about Grimes is that he, and not sir Alex, was the defensive star in Richmond's successful period.

Grimes had - 4 top5 finishes from 2017-21 (including a BnF win) and was a key pillar in winning 3 premierships compared to sir Alex just 1 top5 finish a 1 flag is my rationale.

It would be like me trying to compare a different Geelong midfielder to GAJ.

GAJ was top2 in Geelong BnF 4 times during their equivalent 2007-11 successful period...not sure any other Geelong mids match that. Bartel would be closest with had 4 top 3 finishes.

GAJ was a huge part of Geelong's successful era, very different to sir Alex.

Why are you including 2021 in Richmond’s successful period when they missed finals ? And why would you expect Rance to poll well in Richmond’s B&F in 2019 and 2020?

In 2015 Richmond won 15 games and finished 5th on ladder … 15 is usually enough for top-4. Rance won the B&F.

In 2016 Richmond had a poor season. Rance came 2nd in B&F.

In 2017 Tigers won the flag and Rance came second in B&F, only beaten by one of the greatest seasons ever played.

And it’s funny how Rance finishing 6th in a highly successful 2018 season with 18 wins is frowned upon … and Scarlett from 2006-2012 had a 5th and every other B&F finish outside top-5… but that’s ok as quality around him ..

Here is Richmond’s 2018 B&F:

Riewoldt
Lambert
Martin
Edwards
Grimes
Rance
Cotchin
Vlastuin
Short
Caddy (46 goals and AA squad in 2018)
Prestia
Astbury
Nankervis

So that list of 13 players is hardly chopped liver.

So Richmond went 15 wins / 8 / flag / 18, and Rance went 1/2/2/6.

And once again, Rance played his entire career without a single Tiger defender selected AA alongside him, and a single nomination only.

Grimes was exceptional but when he established himself from 2017 onwards he was surrounded by Astbury, Rance, Vlastuin, Short, Baker, Broad, Balta.

From 2011-2016 Rance was surrounded by not a single player good enough to earn an AA nomination in their career.



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[Noidnadroj]

Like your statement "part of contending more often than not is you see a few losing ones along the way."

Collingwood has made 5 more Grand Finals than Richmond in the last 7 decades. And won 6 less Grand Finals.

It is pretty funny actually.

Let’s not forget the Pies had the 4-peat. With challenge systems and players heading to the game after finishing their milk run on Saturday morning.


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[Footy_Fan2007]

Of course, because you don’t know about footy, clearly.

How’s the irony with this!!

 

[Noidnadroj]

"Dude" I said the combination of Hawkins, Duncan and Rohan out resulted in first half dominance not translating into a bigger (potentially match winning) lead.

Was it you who got upset when I mentioned they combined for more goals/assists than Lynch/Riewoldt/Edwards in 2019?

Yeah that's what I thought. Back in your box.

In fairness 2019 incudes H&A. Finals were not exactly the strong suit of Hawkins, Rohan and Duncan. This was never more evident than 2020 GF when those 3 combined for 3 goals and goal assists. Or the 2017 QF when Hawkins and Duncan combined for 2 x goals and goal assists.



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[Mr Meow]

In fairness 2019 incudes H&A. Finals were not exactly the strong suit of Hawkins, Rohan and Duncan. This was never more evident than 2020 GF when those 3 combined for 3 goals and goal assists. Or the 2017 QF when Hawkins and Duncan combined for 2 x goals and goal assists.



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In fairness we already had the discussion and I think it'd beyond you to understand that 2019 was the one time having a full line up would've been enough. 10 more scoring shots to half time even without those 3. Add them in and it's an 8 goal lead to half time - game over. Instead Scott shuffled Henderson and then Dangerfield forward, Blicavs was out on the wing and Taylor was isolated during the comeback. So it was a double whammy as far as the influence it had on that game. Like you said, a year later it was a different story.

Don't worry, Geelong have had good fortune in some games over the years as well (2011 and 2022 both had a crocked Reid against us for starters). If you deny it when it happens you merely concede your one eyedness blinds you on any topic about your club.

 

[doppleganger]

Why are you including 2021 in Richmond’s successful period when they missed finals ?

It is the Grimes era

And why would you expect Rance to poll well in Richmond’s B&F in 2019 and 2020?

I dont, he didnt contribute, that IS THE POINT.

Richmond were successful when Grimes and Astbury matured and were on the park.

And it’s funny how Rance finishing 6th in a highly successful 2018 season

Not frowned upon, what is noted is that Grimes finished ahead of him.

Grimes was Richmond's best key defender In 2018.

Grimes was Richmond's best key defender during their successful period.

Rance only had a small window where his own coaches considered him their best performed key defender...of which Richmond were mediocre for all but 1 season.

Scarlett had a decade of dominance, the majority of which was whilat Geelong was playing deep in September.

Grimes was exceptional but when he established himself from 2017 onwards

Agree.

4 top 5 BnF finishes in a 5 year run - amazing run.

And unlike sir Alex, Grimes was also competing with quality player when finishing top5.

But sir Alex got more disposals I guess.

 

[Captain_Bender]

In fairness we already had the discussion and I think it'd beyond you to understand that 2019 was the one time having a full line up would've been enough. 10 more scoring shots to half time even without those 3. Add them in and it's an 8 goal lead to half time - game over. Instead Scott shuffled Henderson and then Dangerfield forward, Blicavs was out on the wing and Taylor was isolated during the comeback. So it was a double whammy as far as the influence it had on that game. Like you said, a year later it was a different story.

Don't worry, Geelong have had good fortune in some games over the years as well (2011 and 2022 both had a crocked Reid against us for starters). If you deny it when it happens you merely concede your one eyedness blinds you on any topic about your club.

Richmond were missing Rance, Graham with a injured shoulder essentially leaving Richmond a man down, Dusty and Cotchin both suffering corkies in the second quarter and Broad knocked out just before the last

 

[Footy_Fan2007]

Dude Gary ******* Rohan

Yes Gary Rohan superstar

Gary Rohan
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R
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Are you ok?
You seem to have some unhealthy obsession with Rohan…
Embarrassing s**t mate.

 

[Mr Meow]

Richmond were missing Rance, Graham with a injured shoulder essentially leaving Richmond a man down, Dusty and Cotchin both suffering corkies in the second quarter and Broad knocked out just before the last

Richmond's defence excelled all year without Rance and did so a season later. Actual lockdown KPDs with elite rebounding mediums/smalls was the best formula.

You can't laugh at Rohan and then say Graham was important. A couple of players getting corkies is really digging deep in the barrel.

None of these factors were even close to as important as Geelong missing the three I've mentioned and the reshuffling of the side this caused. They combined for 6 plus goals/assists a game in 2019. Attack, defence and delivery were all diminished. The half time lead would've been unassailable.

Imagine the shoe on the other foot. Lynch, Riewoldt and Edwards miss. Hawkins, Duncan and Rohan play. But Atkins injures his shoulder, Guthrie and Dangerfield cop minor knocks and Henry is knocked out just before the last. You'd take that every day as a Cats supporter.

Lady Luck was on your side that night. There's no shame in admitting it.

 

[Footy_Fan2007]

Richmond were missing Rance, Graham with a injured shoulder essentially leaving Richmond a man down, Dusty and Cotchin both suffering corkies in the second quarter and Broad knocked out just before the last

I knew the post was a piss take as soon as I read Grahams name.

He’s a fat glorified VFL player mate. Absolute spud.

Jack Graham
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[Captain_Bender]

I knew the post was a piss take as soon as I read Grahams name.

He’s a fat glorified VFL player mate. Absolute spud.

Jack Graham
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Just like Gary Rohan

 

[Mr Meow]

It is the Grimes era

I dont, he didnt contribute, that IS THE POINT.

Richmond were successful when Grimes and Astbury matured and were on the park.

Not frowned upon, what is noted is that Grimes finished ahead of him.

Grimes was Richmond's best key defender In 2018.

Grimes was Richmond's best key defender during their successful period.

Rance only had a small window where his own coaches considered him their best performed key defender...of which Richmond were mediocre for all but 1 season.

Scarlett had a decade of dominance, the majority of which was whilat Geelong was playing deep in September.

Agree.

4 top 5 BnF finishes in a 5 year run - amazing run.

And unlike sir Alex, Grimes was also competing with quality player when finishing top5.

But sir Alex got more disposals I guess.

I don't know why they're so down on Grimes. Most supporters really underrate him and it seems this includes some Richmond suppoters. He took the wheel and steered Richmond's defence to a back to back impenetrable wall. He could defend 1v1. The Richmond sling shots really got going when their talls won their battles and the smalls mopped up.

 

[Mr Meow]

Just like Gary Rohan

How many times has Graham had 3 plus or even 2 plus goals/assists in a final? Once, the 2017 GF.

He's scored 4 goals in 11 finals. That's a waaaay lower average than Rohan.

 

[Captain_Bender]

Richmond's defence excelled all year without Rance and did so a season later. Actual lockdown KPDs with elite rebounding mediums/smalls was the best formula.

You can't laugh at Rohan and then say Graham was important. A couple of players getting corkies is really digging deep in the barrel.

None of these factors were even close to as important as Geelong missing the three I've mentioned and the reshuffling of the side this caused. They combined for 6 plus goals/assists a game in 2019. Attack, defence and delivery were all diminished. The half time lead would've been unassailable.

Imagine the shoe on the other foot. Lynch, Riewoldt and Edwards miss. Hawkins, Duncan and Rohan play. But Atkins injures his shoulder, Guthrie and Dangerfield cop minor knocks and Henry is knocked out just before the last. You'd take that every day as a Cats supporter.

Lady Luck was on your side that night. There's no shame in admitting it.

Rohan is more like Richmond missing Castagna, nowhere near the level of Lynch or Riewoldt, Hawkins was almost always beaten by Astbury and Rance being out balances out Hawkins being out, and Richmond's injuries during the game balances out Duncan being missing

 

[Footy_Fan2007]

Rohan is more like Richmond missing Castagna, nowhere near the level of Lynch or Riewoldt, Hawkins was almost always beaten by Astbury and Rance being out balances out Hawkins being out, and Richmond's injuries during the game balances out Duncan being missing

J a c k
G r a h a m

 

[Captain_Bender]

How many times has Graham had 3 plus or even 2 plus goals/assists in a final? Once, the 2017 GF.

He's scored 4 goals in 11 finals. That's a waaaay lower average than Rohan.

Graham is a mid, and his 2017 grand final is better than any final Rohan ever played

 

[doppleganger]

I don't know why they're so down on Grimes. Most supporters really underrate him and it seems this includes some Richmond suppoters. He took the wheel and steered Richmond's defence to a back to back impenetrable wall. He could defend 1v1. The Richmond sling shots really got going when their talls won their battles and the smalls mopped up.

It seems he wasnt busy enough for the Tiger fans.

4 top 5 finishes in the clubs BnF during the clubs only good run in 40 years, an absolute star.

 

[Mr Meow]

Rohan is more like Richmond missing Castagna, nowhere near the level of Lynch or Riewoldt, Hawkins was almost always beaten by Astbury and Rance being out balances out Hawkins being out, and Richmond's injuries during the game balances out Duncan being missing

Your selective amnesia is at work again.

In 2019 Hawkins, Duncan and Rohan averaged more combined goals/assists than Lynch, Riewoldt and Edwards.

Now we're testing a second time on receiving this information, how thick you actually are.

 

[Mr Meow]

Graham is a mid, and his 2017 grand final is better than any final Rohan ever played

I feel bad for you letting me run rings around you like this.

Gary Ayres Award (Best Finals Player) - AFL Coaches Association Awards - AFL Coaches Association

aflcoaches.com.au

Gary Rohan: 9 coaches votes, BOG in a nail biting QF.

Graham received a single Norm Smith vote in 2017.

You tried.

 

[Captain_Bender]

Your selective amnesia is at work again.

In 2019 Hawkins, Duncan and Rohan averaged more combined goals/assists than Lynch, Riewoldt and Edwards.

Now we're testing a second time on receiving this information, how thick you actually are.

And how much of that was contributed by Gary Rohan?

 

[Mr Meow]

Graham is a mid, and his 2017 grand final is better than any final Rohan ever played

A mid who averages 1.79 clearances a game over his career? Wow.

 

[Captain_Bender]

A mid who averages 1.79 clearances a game over his career? Wow.

Gary Rohan a forward who averages 1.08 goals over his career wow

 

[Mr Meow]

And how much of that was contributed by Gary Rohan?

1.3 goals and 0.8 assists a game that year.

Do you understand what accumulation means? Where one thing adds onto another? We can work through it if you are struggling.

 

[Captain_Bender]

1.3 goals and 0.8 assists a game that year.

Do you understand what accumulation means? Where one thing adds onto another? We can work through it if you are struggling.

Sweet s**t all, around the Castagna level

 

[Mr Meow]

Sweet s**t all, around the Castagna level

Well for goals assists: 3.3 + 2.1 + 1.7 adds up to over 6! Take 4-6 goals from a side and they're weaker. I.e take Lynch's 5 out of that prelim and Richmond lose.

It really is baffling how you're stuck on this. Time to move on either way. I look forward for you chasing me up on it in another unrelated thread.

And I can cue your final response.

"Gary ****** Rohan" (a better finals performer than Rance)