Cleansweep17
Club Legend
- Dec 20, 2023
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- Richmond
Assuming 1 flag is enough each teams “Fab 4” should get in. Pretty subjective after that.
Combined Best 22 of dynasty teams in 21st century
- Thread starter curnow inferno
- Start date
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If it is actually performance during respective teams dynasty make the following changes
Rance out for Hodge
Hodge is a two time Norm Smith winner, and Richmond did better once Rance retired.
J.Brown out for A.Lynch
Lynch was the Lions dominant KPF during their premiership era, multiple seasons of 70+. Brown a kid.
Riewoldt out for Roughead
Roughy kicked 75, 72, 75 and 50 in the Hawks 4 flag years - going at an avg of close to 3 per game
Riewoldt kicked 33, 24 and 54 and didnt even avg 2 goals per game in the Tigers flag seasons.
Cotchin out for any of S.Johsnon, Selwood or J.Corey
Cotchin only had 1 top5 finish (a 4th in 2017) during their strong era.
S.Johsnon kicked more goals than Reiwoldt
J.Corey and J.Selwood were winning BnFs during Geelongs flag era.
In other words, the Premier has also been the best team during the home and away season on more occasions than the Premier has come from any other individual ladder position...
Noidnadroj
Norm Smith Medallist
- Dec 8, 2020
- 5,995
- 20,634
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- Richmond
I was obviously tongue in cheek… but it’s clear the Geelong hierarchy rated Johnson differently
to the rest. B&F’s often throw up anomalies for specific players that can be easily explained away as ‘one-offs’ (eg Tim English not top-5 this season), but for a 16-year player with his reputation it’s pretty strange. And some years not just top-5 …. 2013 and 2014 not even top-10.
I can only assume there’s games where he had the likes of 25 and kicked 4-goals that didn’t garner many B&F votes as they came in big wins.
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- Jun 28, 2013
- 31,836
- 48,077
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- Hawthorn
Ah ok. So 2008 + 2013 therefore equals one. That’s fair
I feel like 2020 should be not included as it’s not really a flag in the proper sense
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Tiger fanbois just automatically include their club legends who carried the club from 2010-2016.
Rance, Cotch and Jack dont belong in a best of team if you are actually comparing performace during the actual era's of dominance, Tigers being 2017-2020...who cares that Cotch won a brownlow and 3 BnFs from 2011-14? Gunston avg more goals per game than Jack during premiership seasons for feck sake...but Jack won a couple of Coleman's back in 2010 and 2012.
When they actually started winning flags - 2017-2020 - it was Dusty, Grimes, Lambert, Short, Vlaustin, Lynch, Prestia, Houli who were bigger contributors to the Tigers success
And it aint just a Richmond dig, as J.Brown also doesnt belong, as he played his best footy from 06-10 he was a bit part player from 01-04. A.Lynch was the Lions dominant KPF when they were winning flags.
ARE YOU KIDDING, how many battles did Rance have with Franklin who is a walk up start?
Rance was an amazing defender who aslo ran like a half back out of the backline and was a key in the way Richmonds defence had set up. Sorry but your not looking at footy like I am..
Noidnadroj
Norm Smith Medallist
- Dec 8, 2020
- 5,995
- 20,634
- AFL Club
- Richmond
Richmond’s list of key forwards in 2017: Jack Riewoldt. It was arguably his best and most influential season.
And 2018 fell between dynasty flags : B&F, AA, Coleman, Richmond’s best player in losing PF. I’ve honestly lost track if 2018, 2008 or 2010 are factored in? I’m not sure anyone’s been analysing Cat performers taking out 2008 and 2010 specifically??
2019 : played only 3 of first 16 games due to injury. Kicked match winning goal in the wet V Eagles in R22 to give chance of top-4. Kicked 4-goals against Lions in R23 to lock in top-4. Kicked 3-goals in winning QF at GABBA. Kicked 5-goals and got NS votes in GF.
2020: less games and shortened games but came 4th in the Coleman.
So in summary:
2017; 6th in Coleman
2018: 1st in Coleman
2019: missed 12 games. 14-goals in last 5 games including finals. Norm Smith votes
2020: 4th in Coleman
Not saying he’s a lock, but it’s hardly a terrible selection to have him in the team.
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Fmd, when you are one of the clubs sitting at the top table, don't get up for a leak, gimp flag Collingwood will be looking to steal your seat in a flash.
P.S. I tend to agree with you dopple, no Riewoldt or Cotchin for mine, but Rance walks into the team depending on where you stand on the technicality of how many flags he played in.
Load up on Tiger defenders though, they allowed less scoring than the other teams, and in finals way less. Houli, Grimes, Vlastuin all have strong cases, and good shout on Dion, had a super 2019 including huge finals series in particular.
The no Johnson and Selwood selections are baffling to say the least.
A player who, as has been noted numerous times, boasts figures not all that far removed from those of Dustin Martin in that he averaged 20/2 across the Cats flags era, and Selwood who was crucial even in his rookie year - it seems bizarre for them to be omitted
Rance had a very bad injury that railroaded his career at the time. Still he waas pivital
I dont know why everyone is getting very upset over my list, like you guys are experts on football, which you're not.
Rance should be in the team and everyone is carrying on like he is a backyard footballer? you guys are unbelievable.
Why because he zones exceptionally well (something you'll learn eventually) and runs off half back to create play, im sure that is lost on all the experts here.
Cotchin because he was a big reason we dominated in finals, his 1% efforts were amazing, he led the team and set the tone for our finals dominance. I'm not saying he is better than the others, im saying id have him in the team- Another backyard footballer?.
Riewoldt because of his mobility, goal smarts, goal kicking and team balance.
Good one expert.
Noidnadroj
Norm Smith Medallist
- Dec 8, 2020
- 5,995
- 20,634
- AFL Club
- Richmond
Stevie J averages 2007-2011. Dustin Martin averages 2017-2020:
Brownlow Votes / game:
Martin: 1.15
Johnson: 0.49
Top-10 Brownlow:
Martin: 100%
Johnson: 0%
Coaches votes / game:
Martin: 3.95
Johnson: 2.24
Best & Fairest wins:
Martin: 25%
Johnson: 0%
Top-3 best and Fairest:
Martin: 75%
Johnson: 0%
AA selections:
Martin: 75%
Johnson: 60%
Norm Smith:
Martin: 75%
Johnson: 20%
Martin also won a coaches award and MVP.
So across their respective dynasty periods I’m not sure there’s any meaningful measurement to suggest Johnson is ‘not far removed’ from Martin.
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Steven Johnson in 2007-09-11
20.3 disposals per game
2.3 goals per game
3.6 goals + goal assists per game
Dustin Martin in 2017-19-20
25.8 disposals per game
1.3 goals per game
2.29 goals plus assists per game
Now allowing for the missing 16 minutes per game in 2020 you can round that up a bit to make it 1.5 or 1.6 and 2.5 or 2.6 or so
But if you really think - and I’m not for one second trying to claim that it is Dustin Martin’s spot that Johnson should be taking in anyone’s team - that a comparison of Brownlow medal and coach’s votes should be a reason for trying to claim that another player who like Martin was very good at going between the middle and the forward 50 should be left out of one of these sides when he was producing those sorts of numbers?
That’s a pretty weak argument.
20.3 disposals per game
2.3 goals per game
3.6 goals + goal assists per game
Dustin Martin in 2017-19-20
25.8 disposals per game
1.3 goals per game
2.29 goals plus assists per game
Now allowing for the missing 16 minutes per game in 2020 you can round that up a bit to make it 1.5 or 1.6 and 2.5 or 2.6 or so
But if you really think - and I’m not for one second trying to claim that it is Dustin Martin’s spot that Johnson should be taking in anyone’s team - that a comparison of Brownlow medal and coach’s votes should be a reason for trying to claim that another player who like Martin was very good at going between the middle and the forward 50 should be left out of one of these sides when he was producing those sorts of numbers?
That’s a pretty weak argument.
Even the idea of - and people know I steer clear of it because I think it’s stupid - ‘what about his performance in these isolated 80 minute periods of football hand picked out of his entire 250 game career’ arguments don’t stack up as Johnson was a Norm Smith medalist in one grand final and on one leg kicked four goals against a team who were undefeated against every other team in the competition in another grand final.
I don’t get how people can underrate the guy the way they do.
I don’t get how people can underrate the guy the way they do.
Roughy won the Coleman and came 2nd during the Hawks premiership wins.
Lynch kicked more goals for Richmond in 19&20 then Jack.
Roughy and A.Lynch are your starting KPFs if basing it on output from when teams actually played in GFs.
What do you mean technicality?
Rance contributed 0 to Richmond's 2019 and 2020 flags.
Just because he was a star before Richmond won flags shouldnt matter.
Agree that Vlaustin and Grimes would be better choices than Rance.
But good luck edging out
Boris Enright / J.Gibson - both 2 BnFs in flag years
Scarlett AA in all 3 flag years
Leppitsch AA in two flag years
So you are left with two spots...Hodge, C.Johnson, S.Burgoyne, Lake, Taylor and even putting S.Mitchell on a HBF are players that Vlaustin or Grimes are competing against.
Noidnadroj
Norm Smith Medallist
- Dec 8, 2020
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I’m laughing at SJ v Martin comparisons in their dynasty periods, not SJ’s spot in combined team. But I get it … you are focussing your entire comparison on a single measurement. We’ve seen how across 2007-2011 Geelong won about 40 games by 10+ goals. In the 186 point win over the Demons in 2011 Stevie J kicked 7 Goals and had 10 goal assists. The following week against the Suns in a 150-point win he kicked 6-goals and had 3 goal assists. In an earlier game against the Suns he kicked 7-goals in a 66-point win.
So in 2011 as an example, he kicked 5+ goals three times …
R10 v fledgling Suns = 7 goals
R19 v Demons = 7 goals
R20 v Suns = 6 goals
He had 3 games for the year with 3+ goal assists - margins in those games with 3+ GA’s:
186 / 150 / 96.
In 2010 he kicked 4+ goals 7 times. Here were the margins in those games:
95 / 108 / 81 / 71 / 63 / 53 / 101.
Stevie J was a terrific player. But I don’t look too closely at purely SJ stats, as what does 13 goals and 13 goal assists in a 2-game stretch of 186 and 150 point wins really mean - it boosts his stats beautifully … but I don’t take that much stock in that, and neither did the Geelong coaches (never top-5 in B&F).
FWIW he’d be in my combined team. But comparisons to Martin are best reflected taking into account multiple metrics, not just stats.
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Yeah and at random (and yes it was random, I’m at work and don’t have time to peruse every game with a fine tooth comb) early in 2009 he has 28, 4 goals and 2 assists against Sydney who from memory had finished 4th(?) or 5th(?) the year before and there are dozens more examples where he did it. He’s not the first and will surely not be the last forward to kick a lot of goals or have a lot of assists against a bad team in a big win and help it have an impact on his career. It isn’t going to explain 60-odd games at 20, 2.3 and 3.6 though, with some big finals chucked in there for good measure
