Crows v Eagles

[Peninsula Boy]

Coming from a different perspective, I agree with just about all of what Cro-mo has to say. The only possibility is that he might be a year or two early but I don't know your list that well.

I particularly liked the rotation on the midfield. Obviously to be the best, you have to have atleast a very good midfield. If you matchup on Geelong, you have 1. G. Ablett, Jr, 2. Bartel, 3. Corey, 4. Selwood, 5. Ling et al. Your best midfielder is probably Scott Thomspon and the question is where would you rank him? The only question is that do you have any guys who can go to the top of your rotation? Obviously Dangerfield is the guy. I don't know your list so maybe there are others.

There has been a lot of talk about how you guys rate your youngsters and we rate ours. I guess we'll see what happens.

 

[slippery crow]

It just seems no matter what the club does they will be heavily criticised

last year we took Danger with our first pick and some members are still having a cow that Danger focused on his year 12 studies rather than spending time at the crows.

however this morning I read with interest that Watts has only completed 25% of pre-season and will not play football at any level until at least round 12 because he is focusing on year 12 studies, I wonder if Melb supporters are bagging the club for drafting him

last year the club took a fair bit of heat for not playing Walker, however IMO this now looks to be the right strategy as Taylor looks physically ready and full of confidence to play a full season AFL and contribute.

We all know it is not the clubs strategy to bottom out which I totally support, however we also need to consider that the club was forced to take a measured approach to it's list development, we did not have the luxury of early draft picks like the Cats did 7 years ago, or Hawthorn we had to find gems late in the draft and be patient with their development.

As supporters we need to be patient, having a big bang youth approach would have been a disaster, I am confident that the measured approach between 2006 and 2008 will start to bear its fruits with players like Maric, Walker, VB and D-Mac starting to lead the next generation and also paving the way for the likes of Danger, Davis, Sloane and Cook to start making a impression.

I understand some supporters are frustrated with the lack of recent finals success as I am too, however I try to take a step back and assess the entire season and our list against our opposition and look at the total picture and I appreciate the fact that the club has not decided to bottom out or tank to gain early draft picks, this is against the spirit of the game and competitive sport.

I have full confidence that the club is building our list from bottom up and we are well placed to not only challenge for a flag in the next few seasons but also have our list positioned to be least affected by the GC draft cossession which will enable sustainable success.

I really do enjoy everyone's posts and opinions and we are all passionate about our club however calling for NC sacking prior to round 1 is a little extreme in my books, so I appeal to all supporters to park the sacking calls, lets all get behind the club for 2009 and access NC and the club at years end debate what changes if any need to occur then.

 

[maccas_no1]

I think its becoming clearer by the day NC has n idea how to develop a list, either that or he has no idea how to develop young players, recipe for disaster, but when will the AFC fix it before more draft picks are wasted and heading back to Victoria???

 

[beartoo]

For a successful club we have a very negative forum.
Sason proper yet to start; let's call for the coach's head.
Have any of you ever coached a side at any decent level?

 

[Cap]

I think its becoming clearer by the day NC has n idea how to develop a list, either that or he has no idea how to develop young players, recipe for disaster, but when will the AFC fix it before more draft picks are wasted and heading back to Victoria???

Can you please name 5 players that NC has been unable to develop? I wouldn't mind knowing why and how you think NC didn't develop them.

 

[fryingpan]

I think its becoming clearer by the day NC has n idea how to develop a list

 

[The Crows Truth]

It just seems no matter what the club does they will be heavily criticised

last year we took Danger with our first pick and some members are still having a cow that Danger focused on his year 12 studies rather than spending time at the crows.

however this morning I read with interest that Watts has only completed 25% of pre-season and will not play football at any level until at least round 12 because he is focusing on year 12 studies, I wonder if Melb supporters are bagging the club for drafting him

last year the club took a fair bit of heat for not playing Walker, however IMO this now looks to be the right strategy as Taylor looks physically ready and full of confidence to play a full season AFL and contribute.

We all know it is not the clubs strategy to bottom out which I totally support, however we also need to consider that the club was forced to take a measured approach to it's list development, we did not have the luxury of early draft picks like the Cats did 7 years ago, or Hawthorn we had to find gems late in the draft and be patient with their development.

As supporters we need to be patient, having a big bang youth approach would have been a disaster, I am confident that the measured approach between 2006 and 2008 will start to bear its fruits with players like Maric, Walker, VB and D-Mac starting to lead the next generation and also paving the way for the likes of Danger, Davis, Sloane and Cook to start making a impression.

I understand some supporters are frustrated with the lack of recent finals success as I am too, however I try to take a step back and assess the entire season and our list against our opposition and look at the total picture and I appreciate the fact that the club has not decided to bottom out or tank to gain early draft picks, this is against the spirit of the game and competitive sport.

I have full confidence that the club is building our list from bottom up and we are well placed to not only challenge for a flag in the next few seasons but also have our list positioned to be least affected by the GC draft cossession which will enable sustainable success.

I really do enjoy everyone's posts and opinions and we are all passionate about our club however calling for NC sacking prior to round 1 is a little extreme in my books, so I appeal to all supporters to park the sacking calls, lets all get behind the club for 2009 and access NC and the club at years end debate what changes if any need to occur then.

yep. a genuinely intelligent, insightful and balanced post Top stuff.

the serial whingers here like crow mos have said for years that bottoming out doesnt work (obviously she or he was clearly wrong - look at Hawks) and now offers no viable alternative than what the crows are doing (besides the ridiculous assertion that the imbalanced trades of past eras like mc leod for groom can still be achieved - THEY CANT). craigy is focussed on excellence in drafting (and has been as such by independent critics), player development, culture etc. what else can you do if you despise the tanking mentality? but does that give you the elite players? most likely not....remember the vast majority of our historical elite players were a result of initial draft concessions (roo, rehn, smart) or trading players that were picked up with these concessions (jarman for wellman, mc leod for groom)

the other key issue that many balanced posters are raising is the lack of quality of the key 24-28 players on our list. how in the hell is that craigs fault? look at the ayres recruiting era and its shameful. look at the earliest 2 years of craigs recruiting (maric, vb, knights, griff, porps, vince, douglas) and you will detect a sharp contrast. ayres has a lot to answer for with our horrid drafting and it reminds me of cats fans saying it took a good 5-6 years after he left for the club to have a strong list again. sound familiar?

 

[rooboy]

I think the thing that frustrates me ,and I'm guessing other Crows fans, is watching the other clubs, playing their newest draft picks in the NAB cup, and seeing those kids play some really good footy.

On the other hand we have no sign of our own draft picks. This year we have been given a few moments of Sloane and McKernan. What I'd really like to see and hopefully get excited by would be Dangerfield and Davis out on the ground. I realise Davis has been carrying a shoulder but it's the same every year at the Crows.

Understand that young players cannot be thrown in at the deep end, but it's the NAB Cup.It really does seem that youngsters at other clubs get a go way before our boys, and while it might be character buliding etc. it must also give these kids the sh1ts.

Very frustrating.

 

[cmndstab]

I think its becoming clearer by the day NC has n idea how to develop a list, either that or he has no idea how to develop young players, recipe for disaster, but when will the AFC fix it before more draft picks are wasted and heading back to Victoria???

What the hell is this?

 

[Crow-mo]

It just seems no matter what the club does they will be heavily criticised

last year we took Danger with our first pick and some members are still having a cow that Danger focused on his year 12 studies rather than spending time at the crows.

however this morning I read with interest that Watts has only completed 25% of pre-season and will not play football at any level until at least round 12 because he is focusing on year 12 studies, I wonder if Melb supporters are bagging the club for drafting him

last year the club took a fair bit of heat for not playing Walker, however IMO this now looks to be the right strategy as Taylor looks physically ready and full of confidence to play a full season AFL and contribute.

We all know it is not the clubs strategy to bottom out which I totally support, however we also need to consider that the club was forced to take a measured approach to it's list development, we did not have the luxury of early draft picks like the Cats did 7 years ago, or Hawthorn we had to find gems late in the draft and be patient with their development.

As supporters we need to be patient, having a big bang youth approach would have been a disaster, I am confident that the measured approach between 2006 and 2008 will start to bear its fruits with players like Maric, Walker, VB and D-Mac starting to lead the next generation and also paving the way for the likes of Danger, Davis, Sloane and Cook to start making a impression.

I understand some supporters are frustrated with the lack of recent finals success as I am too, however I try to take a step back and assess the entire season and our list against our opposition and look at the total picture and I appreciate the fact that the club has not decided to bottom out or tank to gain early draft picks, this is against the spirit of the game and competitive sport.

I have full confidence that the club is building our list from bottom up and we are well placed to not only challenge for a flag in the next few seasons but also have our list positioned to be least affected by the GC draft cossession which will enable sustainable success.

I really do enjoy everyone's posts and opinions and we are all passionate about our club however calling for NC sacking prior to round 1 is a little extreme in my books, so I appeal to all supporters to park the sacking calls, lets all get behind the club for 2009 and access NC and the club at years end debate what changes if any need to occur then.

that's all good and well, but I don't know what your point actually is .

no one is calling for neil craig's sacking, and this seems to be a long post that says "relax, it'll all be good in the end".

and if that is what you're saying, then its blind sheep time; and if its not what you are saying, what actually is it?

 

[icrow32]

I think the thing that frustrates me ,and I'm guessing other Crows fans, is watching the other clubs, playing their newest draft picks in the NAB cup, and seeing those kids play some really good footy.


Very frustrating.

This is the point, its not that fact that anti craig people like myself, Crow mo and Macca want the Crows to deliberatly lose games. What we want to see is list development thick and fast. The ladder position can take care of its self. Lets face it we are not going to be top 4 this year by a long shot, there are far to many good teams above us at the moment. If we are not going to challenge this year what else are we going to get out of the season?

I want to see as many games as possible put into the 2008 and 2007 draftees, not this softly softly approach by NC where players like Shirley and Dogga get games ahead of Dangerfield and Armstrong, this does nothing expect slow the clubs development. Every other club plays their talented draft picks straight away, obviously they want the to be AFL standard players ASAP, on the other hand our coach would rather them resite the play book 10 times over and backwards before they are considered, forget the talent that we originally drafted them for lets ensure they know what to do at a ball up.

IMHO NC is holding the development of the list back, he is being too conservative and chasing yet another 8th place finish. This is only going to acheive 1 thing which is to delay the club from being a competitive premiership threat in the near future.

 

[Wallace]

Can you please name 5 players that NC has been unable to develop? I wouldn't mind knowing why and how you think NC didn't develop them.

Great post! NC has done an excellent job of developing midrange draft picks and rookie elevations to excellent AFL football players! here are a few examples....

B.Rutten - Rookie upgrade that went from a candidate for delisting to AA full back
N.Bock - Rookie upgrade that went from mediocre CHF to AA CHB
I.Maric - mid range draft pick to one of the more promising No.1 ruckmen in the league
B.Vince - candidate for delisting to quality midfielder
S.Thompson - Was a top 20 pick but was traded to Adelaide and went from an often injured half forward to an elite (posssibly top 5 in AFL) midfielder

And thats without naming up and coming players like Tippett and McKay...

 

[Crow-mo]

yep. a genuinely intelligent, insightful and balanced post Top stuff.

the serial whingers here like crow mos have said for years that bottoming out doesnt work (obviously she or he was clearly wrong - look at Hawks) and now offers no viable alternative than what the crows are doing (besides the ridiculous assertion that the imbalanced trades of past eras like mc leod for groom can still be achieved - THEY CANT). craigy is focussed on excellence in drafting (and has been as such by independent critics), player development, culture etc. what else can you do if you despise the tanking mentality? but does that give you the elite players? most likely not....remember the vast majority of our historical elite players were a result of initial draft concessions (roo, rehn, smart) or trading players that were picked up with these concessions (jarman for wellman, mc leod for groom)

the other key issue that many balanced posters are raising is the lack of quality of the key 24-28 players on our list. how in the hell is that craigs fault? look at the ayres recruiting era and its shameful. look at the earliest 2 years of craigs recruiting (maric, vb, knights, griff, porps, vince, douglas) and you will detect a sharp contrast. ayres has a lot to answer for with our horrid drafting and it reminds me of cats fans saying it took a good 5-6 years after he left for the club to have a strong list again. sound familiar?

hardly surprising that a one eyed, apologist fan boy like you sees solace in a post that contains nothing of substance. its also not surprising that you shut out all the discussion that you didn't like as if it didn't happen, rocking back n forth in the corner Raymond Babbit style huh? to say there are no alternatives raised, is either ignorant or dishonest. with you it could be both.

 

[Crow-mo]

ayres has a lot to answer for with our horrid drafting and it reminds me of cats fans saying it took a good 5-6 years after he left for the club to have a strong list again. sound familiar?

that's right pick a scape goat how many years after the event? brilliant work.

how many years did it take clarkson, worsfold, and roos? of course that's different. isn't it always for a certain type of supporter.

 

[Alex99]

This is the point, its not that fact that anti craig people like myself, Crow mo and Macca want the Crows to deliberatly lose games. What we want to see is list development thick and fast. The ladder position can take care of its self. Lets face it we are not going to be top 4 this year by a long shot, there are far to many good teams above us at the moment. If we are not going to challenge this year what else are we going to get out of the season?

I want to see as many games as possible put into the 2008 and 2007 draftees, not this softly softly approach by NC where players like Shirley and Dogga get games ahead of Dangerfield and Armstrong, this does nothing expect slow the clubs development. Every other club plays their talented draft picks straight away, obviously they want the to be AFL standard players ASAP, on the other hand our coach would rather them resite the play book 10 times over and backwards before they are considered, forget the talent that we originally drafted them for lets ensure they know what to do at a ball up.

IMHO NC is holding the development of the list back, he is being too conservative and chasing yet another 8th place finish. This is only going to acheive 1 thing which is to delay the club from being a competitive premiership threat in the near future.

I agree. Neil Craig has to learn how to play the real game. I don't suggest we use the Hawks, Carlton or St Kilda model of bottoming out for high draft picks, i suggest we use the Kevin Sheedy 1984 and 1993 model of playing kids as a positive message where his baby Bombers blitzed everyone.

 

[The Crows Truth]

that's right pick a scape goat how many years after the event? brilliant work.

how many years did it take clarkson, worsfold, and roos? of course that's different. isn't it always for a certain type of supporter.

do you not comprehend the fact that one coaches drafting and trading (especially over a 5 year period) will have a significant residual impact once they have left the club? seriously, you dont seem to get it. when ayres left he had drafted and traded a collective pile of shit over many years. the vast majority of the best crows players left on the list at the end of his stint were there at the start of his stint.

Watts, Krueger, Burns, Carey, Jericho, Begley, Nelson, Schell, Fitzgerald, Finnin, Schubank, Bode (for pick 12), Hewitt, Andwin, Handby, Smith, Skipworth, Schubank, O'Loughlin, Cicolella, Singh

What a crock of shit this above list is. And this is the vasy majority of all players drafted/traded in the Ayres era

Cmon, crow mos lets see you defend this bunch? Give us your best shot (no turning the gun on yourself now though under the circumstances ).

ps Are you also silly enough to argue that Clarksons premiership team werent significantly helped by the clubs recuiting years before he got there

 

[KUNG FU]

Bottoming out doesn't win premierships, just ask St Kilda. Strong teams with deep lists do.

 

[Riggy1]

Bottoming out doesn't win premierships, just ask St Kilda. Strong teams with deep lists do.

Bottoming out does win premierships, just ask Hawthorn.

 

[Alex99]

Bottoming out doesn't win premierships, just ask St Kilda. Strong teams with deep lists do.

St Kilda missed a premiership by 10 seconds. They would have beaten Brisbane in 2004.

 

[betterthanu]

Bottoming out with Rendell as our recruiting manager seems kinda pointless. Say we finished 15th last year, Davis would still be on our list. If we finished 14th the year before we would still have Dangerfield. I wouldnt mind if only one of Dogga and Shirley got games this year. I know that wont happen though.

 

[beartoo]

Anyone think we'll go down to WCE tonight?

 

[Vader]

A few things to comment on here...

Firstly, I do agree that our list was in better condition in 2005 than was generally recognised. To a certain extent, 2004 was a blip in a formline which included finals every other year from 2001 to 2008. However, this concession comes with a rider - the list inherited by Neil Craig was completely bereft of youth. At the time he took over, our list contained one solitary teenager - Fungus Watts. In terms of youth development, this has meant that all of the youths being developed have been those drafted since he took over as coach.

Secondly, I also agree that the Adelaide team list lacks genuine top-tier, grade 1 talent. This begs the question of how we are to obtain such talent? The AFL specifically changed the rule to prevent us drafting the only F/S talent we've ever had and we have never bottomed out. In the modern era, where drafting has become more science than art, these are the only two paths to obtaining elite talent. Are people genuinely suggesting that we should deliberately aim to finish down the bottom of the ladder in order to have access to such talented players? There's a new thread today asking just this question.

Thirdly, someone (maccas_no_1?) posted a list of years that NC has been in charge - from 2004-2009. It's unfair to include 2004 on this list given that he took over mid-season and had no say in the gameplans nor the players on the list. 2009 hasn't even begun yet. So, we need to be judging NC over a 4 year window (2005-08), not 6 years.

Fourthly, Adelaide's junior development is nowhere near as bad as many on this board would like to think. I did an analysis on it last year, examining the player development of every youngster each year over the duration of NC's reign. The thread ended in a big debate with Crow-mo. The upshot was that very few if any of the kids to that point had had their development impeded. Arguably the only name I could think of would be Taylor Walker. I failed to locate the thread in question, but am happy to add a link if someone wants to do a more thorough search.

Fifthly, there is no evidence whatsover to support the theory that bottoming out will help you win the flag. St Kilda are a classic example of how it can go wrong. Carlton's bottoming out has given them a great midfield for the future, but they still look shakey at either end of the ground - particularly once Fevola retires. Hawthorn did more than just bottom out - they also traded for a multitude of high draft picks. Even then, it was their older players who won them the GF, players like Hodge & Mitchell who were around long before they hit rock bottom in 2004 & 2005.

Premierships winning teams usually have several things in common. Firstly, they have 2 or 3 freakishly elite players who are able to alter the course of a game. We have none. They also have a large group of players in the 100-150 game band, players who are physically mature and who have gelled together through similar experiences over a 4-6 year timeframe. We have just 6 players in this bracket, with only 10 having 100+ games experience in total. We need to be patient and wait for the Craig draftees to mature - VB should be the first of these, due to play his 100th in early 2010. The rest are at least a year behind him.

Neil Craig is in the process of transforming the team. When he arrived he had no youngsters to work with whatsoever. Today we have 21 players aged 22 or younger (excluding rookie listed players). This is the group which we hope will take us to our next flag, but we need to be patient as we wait for them to develop. Like Rachel Hunter said in the shampoo commercial... "It won't happen overnight, but it will happen."

 

[crowman_23]

This is the point, its not that fact that anti craig people like myself, Crow mo and Macca want the Crows to deliberatly lose games. What we want to see is list development thick and fast. The ladder position can take care of its self. Lets face it we are not going to be top 4 this year by a long shot, there are far to many good teams above us at the moment. If we are not going to challenge this year what else are we going to get out of the season?

I want to see as many games as possible put into the 2008 and 2007 draftees, not this softly softly approach by NC where players like Shirley and Dogga get games ahead of Dangerfield and Armstrong, this does nothing expect slow the clubs development. Every other club plays their talented draft picks straight away, obviously they want the to be AFL standard players ASAP, on the other hand our coach would rather them resite the play book 10 times over and backwards before they are considered, forget the talent that we originally drafted them for lets ensure they know what to do at a ball up.

IMHO NC is holding the development of the list back, he is being too conservative and chasing yet another 8th place finish. This is only going to acheive 1 thing which is to delay the club from being a competitive premiership threat in the near future.

That's just silly. I'm sure the club has it's plans in place to bring the young guys in to the side. You can't just throw all the young guys in when they're not ready, because it's just as likely to have a negative impact as it is a positive one. I too want to see Dangerfield in the side, as I think most Crows fans would, but I'm sure Craig and co. know of his development and readiness to play a lot better than you or I. And not all clubs play their talented draft picks straight away, often the ones get played do so because they have been drafted the a struggling side and are the higher end of the picks in the draft. Danger shouldn't be played 'just because he was our first round draft pick who is very talented', he needs to earn his place like everyone else.

 

[CrowHop]

Watts, Krueger, Burns, Carey, Jericho, Begley, Nelson, Schell, Fitzgerald, Finnin, Schubank, Bode (for pick 12), Hewitt, Andwin, Handby, Smith, Skipworth, Schubank, O'Loughlin, Cicolella, Singh

I just spewed up a bit.

 

[Cap]

shoot me down here but we have 1 game breaker - Porps, he has won us a few games last season and this will continue.
As for Elite, well time will tell.