Hawthorn's Premeirship tally - A result of zoning and nothing else

[Falchoon]

Then name me the 'stars' we got from our MPNFL zone.

Don't forget the South West Gippsland League and it's "country" towns of Keysborough, Narre Warren, Doveton, Cranbourne, Berwick and the like.

I'll have a go

From the 1983 flag

Chris Mew 230
Richard Loveridge 136
Dermott Brereton 211
Leigh Matthews 332
Michael Tuck 426
Michael McCarthy 126

Nup, no stars there.

Players in the squad not good enough to get a game

Moncrieff 224
Moore 300 (where was he?)

Nup, no stars there.

Shields 17

Nice depth

I can't see why you'd argue the point?

 

[Frankston Rover]

Don't forget the South West Gippsland League and it's "country" towns of Keysborough, Narre Warren, Doveton, Cranbourne, Berwick and the like.

I'll have a go

From the 1983 flag

Chris Mew 230
Richard Loveridge 136
Dermott Brereton 211
Leigh Matthews 332
Michael Tuck 426
Michael McCarthy 126

Nup, no stars there.

Players in the squad not good enough to get a game

Moncrieff 224
Moore 300 (where was he?)

Nup, no stars there.

Shields 17

Nice depth

I can't see why you'd argue the point?

Don't forget that Cranbourne in 1970 was a country town, Falc.

Keysborough was market garden, Narre Warren didn't exist and Berwick was a one horse town up until the mid 80's.

Loveridge was recruited from Scotch College.

Tuck walked into the club and asked to train with them.

Sheilds??? Spud.

Matthews, Mew, Brereton, Moncrieff and Moore I'll grant you but to suggest these 5 players (two of whom didn't play) won us the '83 Grand Final... well, I think you're grasping.

 

[Hodgepodge]

Every club has/had zones.

 

[GuzzLG]

Every club has/had zones.

Some had far better access than others making only 3 teams competitive i.e. Hawthorn, Richmond and carlton.

All those flags are tainted.

 

[bontshow]

Some had far better access than others making only 3 teams competitive i.e. Hawthorn, Richmond and carlton.

All those flags are tainted.

I'm starting to think everything down there isn't what it seems

Highest membership tally - lower membership revenue than Geelong
Richest Victorian club - less assets than Essendon
Most premierships in the last 50 years - thanks to zoning advantages

Mirage of a club

 

[mess]

This must be one of those threads where someone says something really dumb and gets owned for 20 or so pages before saying "sucked in, gee you guys are so gullible and insecure, man I baited you'se good and you said stuff to me what a great fishering I dunned!!"


Pass.

 

[Falchoon]

Matthews, Mew, Brereton, Moncrieff and Moore I'll grant you but to suggest these 5 players (two of whom didn't play) won us the '83 Grand Final... well, I think you're grasping.

I missed that particular suggestion and am grasping at no such thing. I was responding to your suggestion that I point out stars from your "country" zone. So I did, I picked the first game I could think of and looked at the players from the MPNFL/SWGFL.

5 minutes later I had counted 7 stars, all at the one time, from one random sample.

Don't forget that Cranbourne in 1970 was a country town, Falc.

Keysborough was market garden, Narre Warren didn't exist and Berwick was a one horse town up until the mid 80's.

That's the bloody point

In 1966 the population of the city of Cranbourne was 13,000, by 1981 it was 35,000, Dandenong went from 31,000 to 54,000, Springvale (incl Keysy) went from 39,000 to 77,000, Berwick 14,000 to 36,000, Frankston 42,000 to 78,000, Mornington shire 10,000 to 23,000. Even Hastings went from 7,000 to 17,000.

they were no longer country towns, they were Melbourne's growth corridor and they were being populated by young families looking for cheaper housing with a back yard. The ideal sort of place to be recruiting footballers.

By contrast the shire of Ballarat and the city of Ballarat combined went from 53,000 to 53,000.

The biggest free kick in history.

 

[catspremiers2007]

Looks like I'm uploading another video onto youtube. I'm tired of proving you trolls wrong.

Do another 'saucy wench' video Hodgesprog

 

[Frankston Rover]

I missed that particular suggestion and am grasping at no such thing. I was responding to your suggestion that I point out stars from your "country" zone. So I did, I picked the first game I could think of and looked at the players from the MPNFL/SWGFL.

5 minutes later I had counted 7 stars, all at the one time, from one random sample.

And yet, from that sample, one was recruited from Scotch College, one walked into the club asking for a game and two didn't play in the game you sampled. Michael McCarthy was a star???? Fair dinkum...

That's the bloody point

In 1966 the population of the city of Cranbourne was 13,000, by 1981 it was 35,000, Dandenong went from 31,000 to 54,000, Springvale (incl Keysy) went from 39,000 to 77,000, Berwick 14,000 to 36,000, Frankston 42,000 to 78,000, Mornington shire 10,000 to 23,000. Even Hastings went from 7,000 to 17,000.

they were no longer country towns, they were Melbourne's growth corridor and they were being populated by young families looking for cheaper housing with a back yard. The ideal sort of place to be recruiting footballers.

By contrast the shire of Ballarat and the city of Ballarat combined went from 53,000 to 53,000.

The biggest free kick in history.

So by 1977, young families with kids move in. Say the kids are 5 years old. Those kids would be 18 in 1990 - after country zones were abolished.

Lets go back to the year when Chris Mew was born - 1961... Oh dear, that means his family were already part of the 10,000 in your figures above - not part of the 13,000 who moved in...

Kelvin Moore - born 1950
Dermott Brereton - born 1964
Leigh Matthews - born 1952

So none of these 'champions' were players that can be attributed to the population explosion as they were already living in these areas before 1966.

Myth still busted.

 

[Frankston Rover]

Some had far better access than others making only 3 teams competitive i.e. Hawthorn, Richmond and carlton.

And yet flags won in 1897 round robin competitions are not?

Funny that.

 

[Frankston Rover]

I'm starting to think everything down there isn't what it seems

Highest membership tally - lower membership revenue than Geelong
Richest Victorian club - less assets than Essendon
Most premierships in the last 50 years - thanks to zoning advantages

Mirage of a club

Success to you IS a mirage...

Does it sadden, anger or annoy you that your club joined the same time as us, in a much stronger position too, and yet you are broke with 1 flag and we are rich and have 10?

I'm going with anger...

 

[Falchoon]

And yet, from that sample, one was recruited from Scotch College, one walked into the club asking for a game and two didn't play in the game you sampled.

All were from the MPNFL or the SWGFL, the fact that you can claim MPNFL & other kids from your Private School Metro Zone actually makes it worse, was he on a sporting scholarship by chance?

The fact that your great zone assisted depth means a late boomer like Tuck has to come knocking twice speaks volumes.

A 300 gamer and a top 25 goalkicker of all time couldn't even make the bloody team, blow me down, there's my friggin point busted about the depth afforded by having a metro zone as country.

Michael McCarthy was a star???? Fair dinkum...

was he? who claimed that? From a random year in time I picked the following

Chris Mew 230
Richard Loveridge 136
Dermott Brereton 211
Leigh Matthews 332
Michael Tuck 426
Moncrieff 224
Moore 300

So by 1977, young families with kids move in. Say the kids are 5 years old. Those kids would be 18 in 1990 - after country zones were abolished.

So by 1966 a 10 year old moves in, is this the best you have got? They were already fringe suburbs when country zoning was started and kids had been moving in since the 50's - see Bonbeach.

I suppose Monterey Tech, Monterey High, Karingal Park etc were built in the sixties due to anticipated demand in the seventies. FFS Aspendale Tech whos zone extended half way to Frankston was past its use by date in the eighties.

Grasping

Lets go back to the year when Chris Mew was born - 1961... Oh dear, that means his family were already part of the 10,000 in your figures above - not part of the 13,000 who moved in...
Kelvin Moore - born 1950
Dermott Brereton - born 1964
Leigh Matthews - born 1952

So none of these 'champions' were players that can be attributed to the population explosion as they were already living in these areas before 1966.

Myth still busted.

so because I use data from 1966, that's when it started.

Open the other eye FR, you're (Essendon posts excluded ) better than this.

Biggest free kick in history

 

[Frankston Rover]

If you seriously believe Berwick, Rosebud, Narre Warren and Hastings were 'boom' areas in the 1950's -70's, then I think you are dreaming.

I grew up in Frankston. Karingal specifically.

Cranbourne was a country town right up until the mid 80's.
Rosebud is still predominantly retirees and only took off in the early 90's.
Berwick, Beaconsfield and Pakenham were country towns.

Footscray had access to Gippsland - Morwell, Traralgon - massive populations in the 60's, 70's and 80's thanks to the SEC. What's there excuse?

Essendon won a flags in 84-85 with Tim Watson (Dimboola), Shane Heard (Horsham), Roger Merrett (Kaniva) - all from their country zone - yet they'd gone 19 years without one. Good management? Luck?

St.Kilda had Ballarat - Lockett, Frawley are two off the top of my head...

You have to remember, Hawthorn turned from a soft easybeat in the 50's to Kennedy's Commando's in the early 60's. This changed the culture of the club. If you wanted to work hard and be part of the team, you were given the chance - look at Dipper, he played 1 season, left, came back, played a fair few reserve games and then played 200+ VFL games and won 5 flags. Was this luck or was it Dippers determination combined with the clubs culture that made him the player he was?

I'm not disputing some of the talent we got but to suggest 9 or 10 flags were won thanks to our zone is pathetic.

I suggest for your next sample you do the 88 or 89 premiership sides. Apart from Brereton, Ayres* and Tuck no other players were recruited from the MPNFL or SWGFL.


*Was recruited from Warragul - country enough for you????

 

[GuzzLG]

And yet flags won in 1897 round robin competitions are not?

Funny that.

No actually. The 1890s-1920s were nowhere near as uncompetitive. Look at all the different premiers.

Hawthorn are a rabble, got the biggest unfair advantage in the most unfair system and won some flags. Yawn. Nobody respects that.

 

[Falchoon]

If you seriously believe Berwick, Rosebud, Narre Warren and Hastings were 'boom' areas in the 1950's -70's, then I think you are dreaming.

I believe they were growth areas, not boom areas. They were doubling/tripling their populations.

Footscray had access to Gippsland - Morwell, Traralgon - massive populations in the 60's, 70's and 80's thanks to the SEC. What's there excuse?

Morwell + Traralgon + Moe, 1966 = 49000 1981 = 59000

They weren't growth areas, when the boundaries were drawn up in the mid to early sixties, all clubs were basically drawing upon an equivalent population base, by the time it had finished Hawthorn had double the population base and more importantly a population base in the right demographic for recruiting footballers.

Essendon won a flags in 84-85 with Tim Watson (Dimboola), Shane Heard (Horsham), Roger Merrett (Kaniva) - all from their country zone - yet they'd gone 19 years without one. Good management? Luck?

I don't know, it wasn't due to massive country population growth that's for sure, did their metro zone include the northern growth areas? Keilor etc?

St.Kilda had Ballarat - Lockett, Frawley are two off the top of my head...

Malthouse - and the population was competely stagnant.

You have to remember, Hawthorn turned from a soft easybeat in the 50's to Kennedy's Commando's in the early 60's. This changed the culture of the club.

The Saints changed their culture in the sixties, country zoning tore it apart.

The Saints, Dees, & South were absolutely smashed.

 

[thatswhatimtalkinabout]

The Saints, Dees, & South were absolutely smashed.

Perhaps they didn't develop them well enough.

A quick look at VCFL Division One Champions of the period reveals;

1961-1962 Bendigo FL - Carlton
1963-1964 Sth Western District FL - ?
1965-1966 Hampden FL - Fitzroy
1967-1968 Ovens & Murray FL - North Melbourne
1969-1970 Hampden FL- Fitzroy
1971-1972 Bendigo FL - Carlton
1973-1974 North Central FL -?
1978 Goulburn Valley FL - Melbourne
1979 Latrobe Valley FL - Footscray
1980 Latrobe Valley FL - Footscray
1981 Ballarat FL - St Kilda
1982 Ballarat FL - St Kilda
1983 Ballarat FL - St Kilda
1984 Goulburn Valley FL - Melbourne
1985 Ovens & Murray FL - North Melbourne
1986 Ballarat FL - St Kilda
1987 Ovens & Murray FL - North Melbourne
1988 Geelong FL - ?

2 wins for the GVFL (Melb) and 4 in 6 years for the BFL (St Kilda). Given that the MPNFL did not compete fom 1969 - 1977 it's a bit hard to compare the strength of the league at that time, however, they have entered the carnival 35 times for one Division 2 championship in 1997 & one Division 1 in 2002 - they are hardly tearing the competition apart.

Infact, according to your logic - they should win every year.

 

[Falchoon]

Given that the MPNFL did not compete fom 1969 - 1977 it's a bit hard to compare the strength of the league at that time,

were they competing in the metro championship?

 

[Rusty Brookes]

From 100 Years of Australian Football:

Quote from an article of at the time zoning was introduced (1968).

"St Kilda, Carlton, Footscray and North Melbourne have seemed to have fared best. The zones theoretically the 'weakest' have gone to Geelong, South Melbourne, Hawthorn and Richmond."

Perhaps the decades of dominance had something to do with Hawthorn developing the zones allocated to it.

 

[Falchoon]

1979 Latrobe Valley FL - Footscray
1980 Latrobe Valley FL - Footscray

Did Gary Ayres play?

 

[Falchoon]

Perhaps the decades of dominance had something to do with Hawthorn developing the zones allocated to it.

or a massive population influx.

 

[thatswhatimtalkinabout]

were they competing in the metro championship?

You tell me, it's not my comp - I highly doubt they would leave the VCFL and then go back.

Why aren't they absolutely ripping every other comp a new one now that they've had even more significant growth over the last decade or so?

They should be kicking cricket scores against population stagnant minnows like the BenFL, BallFL, GVFL, O&MFL and the GFL. Pissants the lot of them.

 

[Falchoon]

You tell me, it's not my comp - I highly doubt they would leave the VCFL and then go back.

Why aren't they absolutely ripping every other comp a new one now that they've had even more significant growth over the last decade or so?

I'm an amateur demographer, not an expert on the politics of the VCFL's . Which leagues pay the best? Do the local VFA teams suck out the best players?

 

[Topper Harley]

Can't you only win under the rules you play under at the time???

Premierships are no doubt more difficult since the draft and salery cap have come in to even up the competition, but that still doesn't detract from Hawthorn's performance in the 80's.

 

[thatswhatimtalkinabout]

I'm an amateur demographer, not an expert on the politics of the VCFL's . Which leagues pay the best? Do the local VFA teams suck out the best players?

General rule of thumb is the closer you get to the Murray River, the better the payday. Bendigo FL clubs are operating around the $200,000 a year budget - maybe 40 - 50% spent on player payments.

Can't you only win under the rules you play under at the time???

Premierships are no doubt more difficult since the draft and salery cap have come in to even up the competition, but that still doesn't detract from Hawthorn's performance in the 80's.

Stop making sense.

 

[thatswhatimtalkinabout]

Do the local VFA teams suck out the best players?

No, but the feeder/lower standard leagues do through their ability to pay big bucks to one or two 'stars' thereby weakening the league and putting upward pressure on player payments.