The 500 club

[beta_condition]

At the moment he's averaging 14.7 and 3.2 according to AFL tables. Carey averaged 16.5 and 2.7, which is a pretty handy goal average when you consider he played a good few games at half back. Ablett Snr was 15.2 and 4.2, Matthew Richardson 14.0 and 2.8 and Leigh Matthews rather stands out at 21.8 and 2.8. Lloyd sits at 13.0 and 3.4 which is a higher disposal average than I expected. Mark Jackson averaged 3.8 goals a game! Finally, ol' Sticks Kernahan averaged 14.3 and 2.9.

Buddy has averaged 18 and 3.6 for the past two seasons, since 2008 he has averaged 16.5 and 3.7 in goals, doing pretty alright for him self

 

[Skerret]

Same height as Dunstall and Brereton

Checking on Brereton... wow, apparently he's only 186cm. I thought he was 193ish, certainly looked it. Must have been the hair. Still, huge, huge difference between 185 and 186...

Also Piggy was 188/100 apparently. Ablett tipped the scales at 90ish prior to 1993 and beyond, when he got close to 100. If anything it illustrates how much emphasis is now put on height, to the detriment of some players. Would Brereton get a game at CHF now? Maybe, but many current KPFs seem to be pushing 197ish and 100+.

Ablett had a winger's build early on, if a strong one. Brereton and Dunstall always looked like big forwards to me. Perceptions eh. Anyway, what is considered as tall or small changes by the decade. Steve Johnson is classified as a medium forward and is taller than any of the above. Bring back the fat, short full forward!

 

[Skerret]

Buddy has averaged 18 and 3.6 for the past two seasons, since 2008 he has averaged 16.5 and 3.7 in goals, doing pretty alright for him self

Yep, sure is. We'll reassess in 5 years.

 

[DivideandMultiply]

Hang on, so mainly in terms of goals but now also in terms of his around the ground work? Make your mind up man!

You misinterpreted my post.

You said there are a few other forwards in recent history who have him covered in terms of output.

My response it predominantly in terms of goals (though you have say Cloke who just set the contested marking record).

As an all round package and in terms of todays game, Buddy could if he keeps on at a similar rate go down as one of the very best.

A player like Carey at CHF was not solely defined by his scoring output. was a combination of his performance in big games, fantastic all round goal kicking, ball gathering and marking out put and the more subjective view on how he influenced matches and could do the impossible.

Buddy has all these attributes, so whilst the goal kicking is great it is only one of many criteria with which his success is measured.

 

[Skerret]

You misinterpreted my post.

You said there are a few other forwards in recent history who have him covered in terms of output.

My response it predominantly in terms of goals (though you have say Cloke who just set the contested marking record).

As an all round package and in terms of todays game, Buddy could if he keeps on at a similar rate go down as one of the very best.

A player like Carey at CHF was not solely defined by his scoring output. was a combination of his performance in big games, fantastic all round goal kicking, ball gathering and marking out put and the more subjective view on how he influenced matches and could do the impossible.

Buddy has all these attributes, so whilst the goal kicking is great it is not the only one of many criteria with which his success is measured.

Gotcha. Yeah, agree with all that. My response was meant to be lighthearted though, no harm done. He undoubtedly has the attributes (though still a query on pack marking for me), so as I said I'll enjoy seeing how it all turns out.

I do wonder if it's harder for a player to stand out now. The de-emphasizing of individual players being a focus arguably makes it harder to do the things that really stand out. He still does them of course, but the rigour of football now is such that structure comes first. Carey, when he played forward, was the focus, as was Lockett, Ablett, Dunstall etc. Franklin commands this kind of status but if he was playing 20-30 years ago, he'd be given more room to run wild and likely be declared alongside Ablett as the most gifted player ever. Could be wrong of course, just a thought. It's definitely easier for midfielders to thrive in this climate, though the tide seems to be turning in favour of big guys who can take contested marks. On the home front, the game might be turning in Hawkins' favour, if only he could kick straight(er).

 

[Pj.Rj.Hj]

Peter Sumich 514 Goals from 150 AFL games.

 

[Gydafud]

Someone said earlier it took Ablett 140 games to get to 500 goals. How many did it take to get from 500-1000. Surely he kicked the next 500 a lot quicker.

 

[Skerret]

Someone said earlier it took Ablett 140 games to get to 500 goals. How many did it take to get from 500-1000. Surely he kicked the next 500 a lot quicker.

Another 108 games to score 528 goals (I think he had 502 by the end of the 500 game), from age 30 onwards. I think? Reasonable.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

Sav Rocca did it in under 150 games as well.

As for the small forwards who have cracked the mark, Jack Titus was a forward pocket, wasn't he?

 

[Skerret]

Yep, 175cm, 65.5kg. That's a forward pocket in any era.

Interesting to note on Ablett, his 1991 retirement when he kicked 28 was bookended with 70+ years, a rich vein of form to step out during. Also speaking of Ablett, just saw Betts do a decent impression of him just now. Eddie!

 

[eskabah]

Seeing Milne stats, the first thing that jumped to mind was KB.

KB: 403 games 778 goals Average 1.93 goals per game

Milne: 237 games 492 goals Average 2.03 goals per game

One of the all time best small forwards.

 

[Skerret]

Seeing Milne stats, the first thing that jumped to mind was KB.

KB: 403 games 778 goals Average 1.93 goals per game

Milne: 237 games 492 goals Average 2.03 goals per game

One of the all time best small forwards.

Gawd, imagine putting up with Milne for another 8 years or so...

 

[eskabah]

Watching Milne play is a privelige.

Like watching weasel climb Everest, a lot of WTF!???!?!?!!

 

[DivideandMultiply]

I do wonder if it's harder for a player to stand out now. The de-emphasizing of individual players being a focus arguably makes it harder to do the things that really stand out.

Yeah good point.

Really emphasised that a good spread of goal kickers makes you unpredictable and wins you games.

With the strong emphasis on team defence use one person too much in attack and it is easier to make adjustments to your backline so multiple players can work on shutting them down.

 

[AlibiMonday]

Here's a good thread on the subject of the Greatest Goal Kickers of All Time.

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=734302

 

[Natho]

Wow didn't even realize Buddy was so close to 500 goals already.

 

[juzzo]

Congrats to jono brown. Milne should get there soon eventually followed by Pav.

 

[IllBeTheJudge]

Wow didn't even realize Buddy was so close to 500 goals already.

no less than 64 in 5 consecutive years. Impressive. Should get there this season on that evidence. By about Round 18 if he keeps his career average up

 

[IllBeTheJudge]

Congrats to jono brown. Milne should get there soon eventually followed by Pav.

Hopefully Milne will get there this weekend. I think it's playing on his mind and he's not always doing the team things because of it

 

[StringyDog]

Gawd, imagine putting up with Milne for another 8 years or so...

He'll be lucky to last another 3 weeks the way he is playing, playing far worse than he was before being famously dropped a few year back.

 

[IllBeTheJudge]

He'll be lucky to last another 3 weeks the way he is playing, playing far worse than he was before being famously dropped a few year back.

He's not exactly tearing it up, but there isn't a lot of pressure from underneath at this point. Schneids plays a different role these days and he's a few weeks away yet. Saad isn't putting on a whole lot of pressure

Not to raise the ire of you, but I actually thought Milne was ok against the Dogs, and apart from anything else, kept Robert Murphy largely out of the play. Not sure if that was a particular ploy. Murphy is a very good ball user so for him to minimal effect was a good thing

 

[HolyRioli]

By my count, Franklin is 4 short of the mark as well. Could get there this weekend too.

 

[IllBeTheJudge]

By my count, Franklin is 4 short of the mark as well. Could get there this weekend too.

I have him at 462 career goals (according to two stats sites I went to, including hawthornfc.com.au)

 

[Guardian Hawk]

One thing always needs to be remembered when talking all-time. That is, quite simply, different eras are different. Thus, comparing goal tallies from today (and possessions similarly) to the past is insufficient as the game has drastically shifted. As such, you can only compare a player's statistical measures to that of their contemporaries.

People can say Ablett, Modra, etc were so much better than Buddy because they kicked 257,000 goals or whatever but hauls of this kind were not unusual. Lockett did it regularly, Dunstall did it regularly, Ablett did it regularly, Modra did it semi-regulalry. Hell, even Sav Rocca's hauls made all current players look pedestrian. Not one of these great players, with all their goals, were clearly distinguishing themselves ahead of their contemporaries (emphasising how 'do-able' these feats were at the time).

A closer look at Franklin, highlight something different. Over the last half decade ('07-'12), these are the goalkicking leaders:

1. Lance Franklin 410 goals
2. Jonathan Brown 310
3. Brendan Fevola 295
4. N.Riewoldt 269
5. S.Johnson/S.Milne 259

Lance Franklin is 100 goals ahead of his nearest rival and more relevantly, has 30% more goals than that player.

As Far as I'm aware, those aforementioned greats (Lockett, Dunstall, etc) were never 30% ahead of the field, let alone over a 5-6year period.

Furthermore, goalkicking tallies lately indicate how hard it is to back up (many players having gone close to the Coleman then falling away the next). Franklin has kicked 64 + goals in each of the last 5 seasons. Brown has managed it 3 times, Fevola and Riewoldt twice. No other player has managed it more than once. Add to this how much more of the ball Franklin is getting than his nearest rivals (contemporaries not past) and it further emphasises how much ahead of the pack he is.

I think being more than 30% better than any other player over a 5 year period already enters Franklin into discussions without being dismissed by 'but look how many goals (insert player here) kicked 25 years ago'.

 

[Air_Chester]

One thing always needs to be remembered when talking all-time. That is, quite simply, different eras are different. Thus, comparing goal tallies from today (and possessions similarly) to the past is insufficient as the game has drastically shifted. As such, you can only compare a player's statistical measures to that of their contemporaries.

People can say Ablett, Modra, etc were so much better than Buddy because they kicked 257,000 goals or whatever but hauls of this kind were not unusual. Lockett did it regularly, Dunstall did it regularly, Ablett did it regularly, Modra did it semi-regulalry. Hell, even Sav Rocca's hauls made all current players look pedestrian. Not one of these great players, with all their goals, were clearly distinguishing themselves ahead of their contemporaries (emphasising how 'do-able' these feats were at the time).

A closer look at Franklin, highlight something different. Over the last half decade ('07-'12), these are the goalkicking leaders:

1. Lance Franklin 410 goals
2. Jonathan Brown 310
3. Brendan Fevola 295
4. N.Riewoldt 269
5. S.Johnson/S.Milne 259

Lance Franklin is 100 goals ahead of his nearest rival and more relevantly, has 30% more goals than that player.

As Far as I'm aware, those aforementioned greats (Lockett, Dunstall, etc) were never 30% ahead of the field, let alone over a 5-6year period.

Furthermore, goalkicking tallies lately indicate how hard it is to back up (many players having gone close to the Coleman then falling away the next). Franklin has kicked 64 + goals in each of the last 5 seasons. Brown has managed it 3 times, Fevola and Riewoldt twice. No other player has managed it more than once. Add to this how much more of the ball Franklin is getting than his nearest rivals (contemporaries not past) and it further emphasises how much ahead of the pack he is.

I think being more than 30% better than any other player over a 5 year period already enters Franklin into discussions without being dismissed by 'but look how many goals (insert player here) kicked 25 years ago'.

Fevola would be on par with Franklin if he hadn't missed last year. Would be above him had he not moved clubs. For the time period you chose they have the same goals per game average of 3.6

The game is also different now, which makes Franklin's effort more impressive in some aspects, but makes th 30% difference less impressive.