CFC Stagnation?

[Just Kreuzing]

First thought after just watching a cracking second half by Geelong is who from them? (I did not see the first half - maybe they all were )
Is Longergan wishy washy or just not that talented? Hawkins is wish washy for part of every game but also a key for part of it too. Sometimes Hunt will let himself down but after that I am struggling to think who else

Lonergan can appear that way at times but I reckon he is doing exceptionally well as an undersized KPD after the serious injury he suffered, lucky to be alive from what I am led to believe.

Agree with the Hunt and Hawkins calls, Hunt should not of been playing after he's "hunt act" on Eddie!

 

[Stig O'Hara]

I just got a replacement copy of The Coach and I got to wondering who might have that title (already thinking the new BF may be a good time for a new name) Discovered that some idiot who was red-carded for his one and only post 10 years ago had wasted such a great moniker. Being the cheeky chimp I am I thought I would ask the powers that be if they would help me bring it out of mothballs and I can tell you I was emotionally affected when Fred went that extra yard for me. I hope to have fun with it and YEP you are going to get plenty of The Coach sigs

There's a quote in there from RDB in that book that has stuck with me forever.

"Practice makes perfect is bullshit, only perfect practise makes perfect" or something along those lines.

When I was a kid, I worked with Barassi in his office up the top end of King St. He was the first to start the Sportsmans' Night's as a genuine earner. Bloke called David Robb, who pretty much bankrolled North Melbourne was the finance guy. Was great in those days to see guys like Crackers Keenan (one of the funniest people I have ever met), Max Walker was on the books, Johnnie Cassin (remember him?), Slug Jordan wander through the office.

Anyhoo they had this testimonial for Dennis Lillie in 1982, so they made the posters and the beer coasters for the occasion, and David Robb had this brilliant idea that because the old wicket at the MCG was getting dug up, why don't all the guests get a little vial of the old wicket at the celebration.

Brilliant idea, but he couldn't get people in to stuff the vials, so there's Ronald Dale Barassi, David Robb & me measuring dirt bags and stuffing them into these little vials til 2 in the morning the night before.

And everyone got a free copy of The Coach, man he had boxes of that thing stacked 4 foot deep.

 

[The Coach]

Lonergan can appear that way at times but I reckon he is doing exceptionally well as an undersized KPD after the serious injury he suffered, lucky to be alive from what I am led to believe.

Agree with the Hunt and Hawkins calls, Hunt should not of been playing after he's "hunt act" on Eddie!

I suppose he is JK although I am pretty sure the Hun's stats on which key backs win a good % of contests, did not flatter him. I guess I was referring to the fumble near the end - I think plenty of us just expected him to fumble.

 

[The Coach]

There's a quote in there from RDB in that book that has stuck with me forever.

"Practice makes perfect is bullshit, only perfect practise makes perfect" or something along those lines.

When I was a kid, I worked with Barassi in his office up the top end of King St. He was the first to start the Sportsmans' Night's as a genuine earner. Bloke called David Robb, who pretty much bankrolled North Melbourne was the finance guy. Was great in those days to see guys like Crackers Keenan (one of the funniest people I have ever met), Max Walker was on the books, Johnnie Cassin (remember him?), Slug Jordan wander through the office.

Anyhoo they had this testimonial for Dennis Lillie in 1982, so they made the posters and the beer coasters for the occasion, and David Robb had this brilliant idea that because the old wicket at the MCG was getting dug up, why don't all the guests get a little vial of the old wicket at the celebration.

Brilliant idea, but he couldn't get people in to stuff the vials, so there's Ronald Dale Barassi, David Robb & me measuring dirt bags and stuffing them into these little vials til 2 in the morning the night before.

And everyone got a free copy of The Coach, man he had boxes of that thing stacked 4 foot deep.

What a classic memory Numbers

ps see my new sig

 

[Beer n Skittles]

First thought after just watching a cracking second half by Geelong is who from them? (I did not see the first half - maybe they all were )
Is Longergan wishy washy or just not that talented? Hawkins is wish washy for part of every game but also a key for part of it too. Sometimes Hunt will let himself down but after that I am struggling to think who else

Bit tough when you're picking from Carltons extended list vs Geelongs best 22.
Since you've mentioned our small forwards I'll have to bring up Stokes, Byrnes, maybe Menzel. Young blokes have been hit & miss, for example Stringer *

* pun intended

 

[Just Kreuzing]

I suppose he is JK although I am pretty sure the Hun's stats on which key backs win a good % of contests, did not flatter him. I guess I was referring to the fumble near the end - I think plenty of us just expected him to fumble.

Ok, missed the fumble and haven't seen the stats.

Just on stats, I couldn't believe Commetti's comments early in the game when he stated that Sellwood couldn't actually best on ground at the minute because he only had 5 disposals and O'keefe was because he had 7 touches at that time.

At the time he said it I thought Mcglynn was the most influential player on the ground with only 3 touches and 2 goals.....

 

[Just Kreuzing]

Bit tough when you're picking from Carltons extended list vs Geelongs best 22.
Since you've mentioned our small forwards I'll have to bring up Stokes, Byrnes, maybe Menzel. Young blokes have been hit & miss, for example Stringer *

* pun intended

Menzel is and will be a terrific footballer when he gets over his injuries, very unlucky.

 

[The Coach]

Bit tough when you're picking from Carltons extended list vs Geelongs best 22.
Since you've mentioned our small forwards I'll have to bring up Stokes, Byrnes, maybe Menzel. Young blokes have been hit & miss, for example Stringer *

* pun intended

I think Stokes has graduated off the wishy washy list, like our Eddie, and have never thought Byrnes as soft as Jeffy or Yazza but nor should he be with his experience. I cannot be definitive about Menzel.
I did not think I chose too many non-contenders for a spot in a finals game on my list which I still see as being much longer than Geelongs but I guess this is reflective of our relative positions (last year at least)

 

[Just Kreuzing]

I think Stokes has graduated off the wishy washy list, like our Eddie, and have never thought Byrnes as soft as Jeffy or Yazza but nor should he be with his experience. I cannot be definitive about Menzel.
I did not think I chose too many non-contenders for a spot in a finals game on my list which I still see as being much longer than Geelongs but I guess this is reflective of our relative positions (last year at least)

Might not be as soft as them but not far behind.

Followed him in his car 1 day through the main street of Geelong and ended up doing 10 laps of the city centre as he refused to go right......please, just 1 time try using your right foot!!

 

[JustaBattler]

Hunt look soft at times because he is so stupid it sometimes takes minutes to proces a correct decision. Hawkins is worth 3 Hampsons and 10 Warnocks in the hardness stakes - and he is soft compared to Podsiadly. Eddie in a dangerous position? no problem! Stand on his hand - and pretend you dont know what you are doing - no way is Eddie going to do anything about it. Warnock takes a mark in a crucial game in front of goal with a minute to play? No problem - make sure the back of his head collects a stray fist. what do Carlton do? hand the ball to a concussed Warnock and watch him miss - bye bye Top4. Pay back for hitting a team mate? Carrazzo gets driven into ground - if he is ok no problem part of game - but he is injured. Pay back? Whose job is that?

There are a hundred examples of this stuff- every team knows Carlton is as soft as - the Coach skirts around it with homilies but the President has made it public what he considered those 4 losses to be.

In here - the usual bunch of pretend Carlton fans sit smugly on their fat arses and think it is fair game to sling cabalistic blather at any supporter who dares to suggest that perhaps we are a tad soft and underdone as far as requisite hard bodies go.

I am enjoying reading your soft butter as rants against any criticism of the current situation. Really made me laugh to read the criticism of McLure from some dogs in here. One of his half eaten sandwiches knows more about football than you lot.

Still it is up to the players to show that they deserve to play in the colours and stand up for their coach and their team mates Whatever happens is on them.

PS Coach/Five - cowards hate independence and veracity.

 

[mediumsizered]

I think Stokes has graduated off the wishy washy list, like our Eddie, and have never thought Byrnes as soft as Jeffy or Yazza but nor should he be with his experience. I cannot be definitive about Menzel.
I did not think I chose too many non-contenders for a spot in a finals game on my list which I still see as being much longer than Geelongs but I guess this is reflective of our relative positions (last year at least)

Not sure that Stokes graduated off the wishy washy list, but he is certainly on it this year. Another one, when fit, is Varcoe. He would have been head whipping boy if he was dishing up at Carlton what he dishes up quite often at the Cattery. The former favourite Cats' whipping boy (circa 2006), Andrew Mackie, is very close to finding his way back onto the wishy washy list. It is amazing the difference in some players once some of the leaders have retired & other stars have started to struggle to consistently put together good form. All of a sudden players who were being made to look like millionaires during the Cats' halcyon years, are now starting to look like nothing more than good ordinary players (watch out for a slip in Taylor's form when Scarlett gives the game away, he has already been found wanting in recent times in Scarlett's absence).

 

[Just Kreuzing]

Not sure that Stokes graduated off the wishy washy list, but he is certainly on it this year. Another one, when fit, is Varcoe. He would have been head whipping boy if he was dishing up at Carlton what he dishes up quite often at the Cattery. The former favourite Cats' whipping boy (circa 2006), Andrew Mackie, is very close to finding his way back onto the wishy washy list. It is amazing the difference in some players once some of the leaders have retired & other stars have started to struggle to consistently put together good form. All of a sudden players who were being made to look like millionaires during the Cats' halcyon years, are now starting to look like nothing more than good ordinary players (watch out for a slip in Taylor's form when Scarlett gives the game away, he has already been found wanting in recent times in Scarlett's absence).

Might be why players like Watson perform better in the seniors as opposed to the Northern Blues team, have that better support around them and a sense of belonging. Hopefully Lucas, Collins, Bootsma etc can improve when given more opportunities to help us progress quicker.

 

[JustaBattler]

40 Yr

It might surprise you if I said I agree completely with what you have typed regarding "the path the Club is on and what benchmark best practise is" in your last long post on this thread.

save for this:

It is totally unacceptable to carry passengers on that journey which is long and difficult enough.

Every Carlton supporter understands that it takes time and investment to get sustainable and worthy results.

The difference is that there is absolutely no need to carry soft passengers who are in effect bludgers and free loaders or just not up to it types.
No one expects to win a Premieship this year - although I for one wouldnt discount the possibility if we make the 8 - anything can happen. I dont 'expect' to win a Premiership this year or even next - all I expect and all supporters deserve is best efforts by all concerned.

That is it.

As for all the unnecessary hoo haa and vitriol - perhaps everyone would be happier if the pre dispostion to anger and rants and vitriol against fellow supporters with perhaps different opnions about this or that was turned down a bit.

Apologies for any rudeness on my part today - I was long a few hundred contracts into a nasty opening.

Cheers.

 

[40yearBLUE]

40 Yr
Apologies for any rudeness on my part today - I was long a few hundred contracts into a nasty opening.

Cheers.

Water. Duck.

Just to round out this football lesson I am having to yet again give some of the primates in the room, and let me moderate that arrogance with, this theory of success has nothing to do with football and everything to do with management, is that structure is key. I have posted this over and over and over, it does not much matter which footballers you have on your list at any given time, you are not winning anything without strong management, that have a clearly defined plan, AND STICK TO IT.

In the late 20th century, 2 teams embarked on the same path using the same plans. Neither had a recent history of success (although one of them had come close a number of times only to be slapped down each time) but both understood the new landscape and undertook to succeed in it. One of them had a change of heart mid plan. They ultimately failed. They sacked their coach with success so close to their reach. Had they stayed the course I have no doubt they would have won a flag before Geelong. They stuck the course and they succeeded beyond even their expectations, and became a power for 5 years. StKilda, on that same path lost their patience and their nerve, sacked their coach (Grant Thomas) and ultimately fell short. They are your blind control if you like, what happens if you do this plan and then just as you are about to reap its rewards you abandon it. I listen to Thomas now and wonder how a buffoon like him could possibly be a successful coach, until I remember that with the correct structures the coach does not much matter. Both teams were built with young recruits, some early draft picks but most of the list mid draft no name players but they all matured as a group together. The management of both clubs stuck with the list and the plan even though early on the results were somewhat inconsistent. Patience was key. As the 2 young teams matured as a group the results soon followed. Had both stuck to the plan to its logical conclusion, both would have slugged it out for the past 5 grand finals and would have shared the spoils.

At around this time contrast the way we were being managed, rabble of a board with leaks and infighting and a coach steeped in the old ways of doing things that proceeded to fill the team with old hacks past their prime and some blatant nepotism, they had a false dawn and then promptly sunk lower than they had ever sunk before for longer than they had ever sunk before. We only climbed out of that morass when we embraced the new landscape, understood it fully and embraced the path emblazoned for us by the pioneers of the new way. Now we can choose to be StKilda or Geelong. We can stick the course or we can follow StKilda's example. I know which one I would rather. Its a no brainer really. We can stick the course until we succeed or we can be in perpetual rebuild mode like the tigers or the demons, until someone over there finally realises it wont work.

Ultimately successful or not, the rules are designed to force clubs all the way back down to start the process again. Super successful clubs at this plan will stay up longer but ultimately the rules will force them down too. Then other clubs, further along in the cycle will rise to fill the top spots (Collingwood/Hawthorn in this timeline) until they too fall back down and the next teams in the build as a group stick phat system rise interspersed with the manipulated winners in the new markets. And on and on it will go from now until the next big shake up of the systems, but I think this league formula will be around for 50 years at least.

There cannot be much further evidence needed as there have been no exceptions to this formula succeed save for those that were manipulated by the rule makers into success.

The thing that annoys me so much about this issue, one I am sure you can see I am quite animated about is that I am no genius, I am just a mug old man that never played much footy myself, never rose very high in corporate management either but I, despite being all of that can see this as clearly as night and day. Can find all the evidence with just rudimentary searches on the internet and casual observation of the game. And idiots come in here with their bravado and bluster and make believe insights and they know shit.

SO GET A CLUE YOU MONKEYS!

 

[Beer n Skittles]

Hunt look soft at times because he is so stupid it sometimes takes minutes to proces a correct decision. Hawkins is worth 3 Hampsons and 10 Warnocks in the hardness stakes - and he is soft compared to Podsiadly. Eddie in a dangerous position? no problem! Stand on his hand - and pretend you dont know what you are doing - no way is Eddie going to do anything about it. Warnock takes a mark in a crucial game in front of goal with a minute to play? No problem - make sure the back of his head collects a stray fist. what do Carlton do? hand the ball to a concussed Warnock and watch him miss - bye bye Top4. Pay back for hitting a team mate? Carrazzo gets driven into ground - if he is ok no problem part of game - but he is injured. Pay back? Whose job is that?

There are a hundred examples of this stuff- every team knows Carlton is as soft as - the Coach skirts around it with homilies but the President has made it public what he considered those 4 losses to be.

In here - the usual bunch of pretend Carlton fans sit smugly on their fat arses and think it is fair game to sling cabalistic blather at any supporter who dares to suggest that perhaps we are a tad soft and underdone as far as requisite hard bodies go.

I am enjoying reading your soft butter as rants against any criticism of the current situation. Really made me laugh to read the criticism of McLure from some dogs in here. One of his half eaten sandwiches knows more about football than you lot.

Still it is up to the players to show that they deserve to play in the colours and stand up for their coach and their team mates Whatever happens is on them.

PS Coach/Five - cowards hate independence and veracity.

It takes more resolve to not retaliate in those instances.
In Warnock example, retaliate & cost the team any chance of winning the game.
Charlie Sutton had the right idea, if you're going to get physical it's best to shop early & avoid the rush. Yes the team could probably benefit from doing this, playing Hawthorn style unsociable footy. I don't think it's the big deal you're making it out to be.

BTW it's a long stretch from saying the team is made up 'predominantly of nancy boys' to suggesting that 'perhaps we are a tad soft'.

 

[JustaBattler]

It takes more resolve to not retaliate in those instances.
In Warnock example, retaliate & cost the team any chance of winning the game.
Charlie Sutton had the right idea, if you're going to get physical it's best to shop early & avoid the rush. Yes the team could probably benefit from doing this, playing Hawthorn style unsociable footy. I don't think it's the big deal you're making it out to be.

BTW it's a long stretch from saying the team is made up 'predominantly of nancy boys' to suggesting that 'perhaps we are a tad soft'.

Matey - everyone is entitled to an opinion. If you think the boys are tough as - thats fine

 

[mediumsizered]

In here - the usual bunch of pretend Carlton fans sit smugly on their fat arses and think it is fair game to sling cabalistic blather at any supporter who dares to suggest that perhaps we are a tad soft and underdone as far as requisite hard bodies go.

I am enjoying reading your soft butter as rants against any criticism of the current situation. Really made me laugh to read the criticism of McLure from some dogs in here. One of his half eaten sandwiches knows more about football than you lot.

Still it is up to the players to show that they deserve to play in the colours and stand up for their coach and their team mates Whatever happens is on them.

Who are these pretend Carlton fans of whom you speak? What a pathetic comment to make about supporters who support every player who pulls on the Navy Blue & White & backs the coach instead of wanting him knifed in the back at the first sign of things not going our way. You are clearly one of those supporters who you hear at the ground constantly bagging our players, making the rest of us wonder why you are even bothering to watch the game.

As for calling me a dog (yes I made the comment about Maclure, because he is paid to say something controversial, preferably about our club, not to provide rational commentary), you ever post this sort of shit about me again & I will make sure you never post on BF again. It is supporters like you that have led me to the conclusion that there are a minority of Carlton supporters who are even less tolerable than Collingwood or Essendon supporters & that is saying something.

 

[Beer n Skittles]

Matey - everyone is entitled to an opinion. If you think the boys are tough as - thats fine

Yes they are. I have to ask, if you're of the opinino that the Carlton players are all over paid nancy boys then why do you even bother? Why not pick another side that's up to your standard and troll their board?

 

[40yearBLUE]

Matey - everyone is entitled to an opinion. If you think the boys are tough as - thats fine

The idea that one side is physically "tougher" than another is a joke. Mentally tougher yes. Harder or bigger bodied yes.

And our side is still mentally not quite there. When the mental attitude is there we will finish top 4.

 

[The Coach]

Who are these pretend Carlton fans of whom you speak? What a pathetic comment to make about supporters who support every player who pulls on the Navy Blue & White & backs the coach instead of wanting him knifed in the back at the first sign of things not going our way. You are clearly one of those supporters who you hear at the ground constantly bagging our players, making the rest of us wonder why you are even bothering to watch the game.

As for calling me a dog (yes I made the comment about Maclure, because he is paid to say something controversial, preferably about our club, not to provide rational commentary), you ever post this sort of shit about me again & I will make sure you never post on BF again. It is supporters like you that have led me to the conclusion that there are a minority of Carlton supporters who are even less tolerable than Collingwood or Essendon supporters & that is saying something.

I need clarification on this because on first read it looks really bad.

Are you saying that JaB called you a dog (and nothing more?) in response to you calling Mark Maclure a dick (I remember that) - Poster to Poster stuff I am assuming AND now you are telling him that using your power as a mod you will ban him for life if he was to ever do it again.

There has got to be more to this surely?

 

[40yearBLUE]

I need clarification on this because on first read it looks really bad.

Are you saying that JaB called you a dog (and nothing more?) in response to you calling Mark Maclure a dick (I remember that) - Poster to Poster stuff I am assuming AND now you are telling him that using your power as a mod you will ban him for life if he was to ever do it again.

There has got to be more to this surely?

What difference does it make Coach. Some of us are sick to death of the negativity. If posters want to hang shit on the club then why cant they take it to the common board or the bay. At least there most would agree with them. Why must they post in here? Some of us dont want to hear it. We shouldnt have to.

If I were a mod I would be handing out life bans too to some of the morons on here.

 

[mediumsizered]

I need clarification on this because on first read it looks really bad.

Are you saying that JaB called you a dog (and nothing more?) in response to you calling Mark Maclure a dick (I remember that) - Poster to Poster stuff I am assuming AND now you are telling him that using your power as a mod you will ban him for life if he was to ever do it again.

There has got to be more to this surely?

You will notice the difference is that I didn't call the poster in question anything. What I said about Mark Maclure is no different to certain posters calling our players/coaches hacks etc. Maclure is fair game when he uses his media profile to knock our club. He was a fine servant of our club, but that doesn't give him the right to take pot shots at the club just to play up to the other panellists on the show, who do not take him seriously anyway.

 

[The Coach]

You will notice the difference is that I didn't call the poster in question anything. What I said about Mark Maclure is no different to certain posters calling our players/coaches hacks etc. Maclure is fair game when he uses his media profile to knock our club. He was a fine servant of our club, but that doesn't give him the right to take pot shots at the club just to play up to the other panellists on the show, who do not take him seriously anyway.

And the poster JaB called you a dog? A repeat of which will see him banned for life?
So if someone calls me a dog - I can expect you to ban him for life too?

 

[mediumsizered]

And the poster JaB called you a dog? A repeat of which will see him banned for life?
So if someone calls me a dog - I can expect you to ban him for life too?

I'll tell you what. You worry about what you want to post on BF & leave the moderating of the board up to those appointed to do so.

 

[The Coach]

I'll tell you what. You worry about what you want to post on BF & leave the moderating of the board up to those appointed to do so.

Embarrassing.