Combined Kurt Tippett contract negotiation/trade possibility thread

[brent-83]

In exactly the same way that Gary Ablett had a contract with Geelong in 2010 but had signed a contract with Gold Coast for 2011-2015 at the end of 2009.

It has nothing to do with the uncontracted player clause.

1) There was an "agreement" that Tippett could "go home" at the end of 2012 for reasonable compensation (i.e. similar to what we would have received if Kurt agreed to go to the Gold Coast as an uncontracted player at the end of 2010).

2) Gold Coast decided at the end of last year that they would bring Kurt home at the end of this year and a contract was signed using the "loophole".

Did you hear Phil Harper on 5aa when asked about the "alleged agreement'. The AFC has been very careful in how they have worded their answers on this matter. Why wouldn't they simply say it is crap. Well when this all comes out at the end of the season the answer to that will be obvious.

Roo mentioned pre game last week that such a clause was not in the contract, but more of a gentlemens agreement. Further, he said that whispers from the club were that the club intended not to honour this agreement if Kurt did chose to leave.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Roo mentioned pre game last week that such a clause was not in the contract, but more of a gentlemens agreement. Further, he said that whispers from the club were that the club intended not to honour this agreement if Kurt did chose to leave.

That is very ungentlemanly of them!

 

[Crow-eater]

That is very ungentlemanly of them!

2009

Reid: Well I say Kurt, how about you sign this lovely contract here.
Kurt: but, Mr Reid, I want a guarantee that I can go to the club of my choice for a second round pick when this contract is done
Reid: Well my boy, uh, we can't put that in this contract, draft tampering, you know, let us shake on it, being the gentlemen we are
Kurt: Done

2012
Harper: So, Kurt, how about you sign this contract here
Kurt: Nah mate, I want to go home. Now me and Reidy had this deal, I go home for a second round pick, we shook on it and everything.
Harper: uh...well...uh...Word of mouth is, Reidy had his fingers crossed at the time, and therefore, all handshake agreements are void.
Kurt:But...
Harper: No buts!

 

[eastcoastcrow]

kurt is gone and lets start getting the best deal we can for him.

Arguably this is the best case scenario for the AFC we win the flag and Kurt wins Norm Smith and his value sky rockets and we get a damn good player and a top draft pick in the process!

Win win scenario.

 

[A FEW GOOD MEN]

The one thing I'm sure that you are correct on is the last paragraph. Yes, I heard Phil Harper on 5aa and he was terrible with his ducking and weaving but not answering the question.

That is a very complex arrangement that you've described.

Presuming it to be correct, what are you saying - or thinking - that we will get as recompense for Tippett?

Kurt's current contract was signed at the end of 2009. He was not financially disadvantaged between 2010-2012 since the AFC tore up the last year of his previous contract, meaning that he would receive more than $400K extra for 2010 plus be our highest paid player in 2011 and 2012. His other concern was his ability to return to Queensland to play AFL. The Gold Coast deal was a "get out of jail Adelaide free" card. It was not unreasonable for him to seek an assurance that he could return to Queensland at the end of the contract.

As I understand it, the agreement wasn't absolutely precriptive but was that the AFC would trade Kurt to a Queensland club "for an equivalent compensation to what would apply if Gold Coast picked him up as an uncontracted player". This has since become a bit clouded by the AFL subsequently inventing the "Ablett Compensation". If you accept that we should get the equivalent for Kurt (Gold Coast doesn't) then we would get a mid first round draft pick plus one after our first pick. (Melbourne received a much better deal for Scully since their first pick will be quite high this year. Geelong have not activated their picks). So Gold Coast would argue that pick 11 and pick 23 is over the odds. We would argue that the Bock equivalent (pick 23) is not enough. It is not set in stone but I would expect something similar to the Callan Ward compensation (pick immediately after our first pick). Whilst this is not very tasty this year since it would mean a pick between 19 and 23 depending where we finish, we could keep the pick for later or trade it.

I believe this is why where has been some dispute about what was in the agreement that didn't exist. Gold Coast would like to think it means an end of round 1 pick (the Caro Wilson story), Adelaide would like to think it is pick 4 and 11 (this is what Melbourne will get for Scully this year based on their current position).

To make a short story long, I would expect a pick around 8-12 or player equivalent. Now that's easy if it were Brisbane but would we get Gold Coast's first pick. Gold Coast response - "Tell em they're dreaming"

 

[mattymac]

That is very ungentlemanly of them!

Nice guys finish last

 

[jackster83]

I believe this is why where has been some dispute about what was in the agreement that didn't exist. Gold Coast would like to think it means an end of round 1 pick (the Caro Wilson story), Adelaide would like to think it is pick 4 and 11 (this is what Melbourne will get for Scully this year based on their current position).

To make a short story long, I would expect a pick around 8-12 or player equivalent. Now that's easy if it were Brisbane but would we get Gold Coast's first pick. Gold Coast response - "Tell em they're dreaming"

I suspect the Caddy trade will come into it:

Essendon offer their first round pick for Caddy (likely to be pick 10 or 11) which the Gold Coast then offer to us, possibly with some steak knives attached.

 

[srv23]

I suspect the Caddy trade will come into it:

Essendon offer their first round pick for Caddy (likely to be pick 10 or 11) which the Gold Coast then offer to us, possibly with some steak knives attached.

Essendon likely to need their first pick to get Danniher as F/S. Not sure exactly how they will manage to deal for Caddy.

 

[Mismatched]

Essendon likely to need their first pick to get Danniher as F/S. Not sure exactly how they will manage to deal for Caddy.

I suspect Caddy will be forced to settle for a different side, likely Carlton, Richmond, St. Kilda or Melbourne as a result of this. There just doesn't seem to be too much that Essendon have/will be willing to offer that Gold Coast will want.

 

[srv23]

Yes. And you don't know football clubs if you say otherwise. This denigration of Doughty is now pathetic.

Yep. Look I'm no Dogga fan. I think he's past his best, his form is declining and I'm not convinced that a young player couldn't come in and perfrom to the level he's been performing at at present. However he has been a loyal servant of the club for over 10 years and over 200 games. I'm sure he is well liked and respected by his teammates. While it would have been no stress to the club whether or not they knew of his intentions for next year, I suspect his teammates right now care more about giving him a decent send off than they do about constantly talking about / hearing about the contract status of the one bloke in the team who is actively shopping himself around to other clubs and refusuing to committ to the club when they are on the eve of finals and a very good chance of jagging a flag. I wonder, out of Tippo and Dogga, which bloke the players would like to see end his career at the AFC with a premiership. Dogga after 200 games or Tippett before walking out on the club to head back to Qld.

 

[Harris Specter]

kurt is gone and lets start getting the best deal we can for him.

Arguably this is the best case scenario for the AFC we win the flag and Kurt wins Norm Smith and his value sky rockets and we get a damn good player and a top draft pick in the process!

Win win scenario.

lol. Couldn't be worse for your club really.
Remember, we're not trying to trade for him, he wants to come home.

 

[FR0GGY]

lol. Couldn't be worse for your club really.
Remember, we're not trying to trade for him, he wants to come home.

Actually it could be we could be at the bottom of the ladder without a long term key forward

 

[Elder van Berlo]

In exactly the same way that Gary Ablett had a contract with Geelong in 2010 but had signed a contract with Gold Coast for 2011-2015 at the end of 2009.

It has nothing to do with the uncontracted player clause.

1) There was an "agreement" that Tippett could "go home" at the end of 2012 for reasonable compensation (i.e. similar to what we would have received if Kurt agreed to go to the Gold Coast as an uncontracted player at the end of 2010).

2) Gold Coast decided at the end of last year that they would bring Kurt home at the end of this year and a contract was signed using the "loophole".

Did you hear Phil Harper on 5aa when asked about the "alleged agreement'. The AFC has been very careful in how they have worded their answers on this matter. Why wouldn't they simply say it is crap. Well when this all comes out at the end of the season the answer to that will be obvious.

There is a part of me that suspects you are just trolling Rucci, seeing if he runs a completely fictitious story. But assuming what you say is true, there are still a couple of bits that don't quite add up.
Mainly, the Ablett situation in 2009 was very different to the Tippett situation in 2011, and it has everything to do with the uncontracted player clause.

In 2009, Ablett was contracted to Geelong for 2010. However, the position was that if Gold Coast and Ablett came to an agreement for 2011, it did not require any agreement on Geelong's part, as the Gold Coast were entitled to take him as an uncontracted player without having to trade with Geelong. For Gold Coast's purposes, as at 2009, Ablett was effectively a Free Agent in 2011. They signed him in 2009 (not sure if that's actually what happened, but say it was), and it was done. Nothing Geelong can do about it.

Contrast that to Tippett's situation in 2011. He, like Ablett, was contracted to his current club for 2012. The difference lies in the fact that Gold Coast have no right to just sign him up for 2013, like they did with Ablett 2 years earlier. The only way they can do it is by trading with Adelaide or by Tippett walking to the draft. Tippett is not a Free Agent.

So point 1, any agreement couldn't have been made "in exactly the same way that Gary Ablett... had signed a contract with Gold Coast for 2011-2015 at the end of 2009."

Now, as for the agreements you set out in your numbered points 1) and 2), on my understanding of the AFL rules, neither would actually be enforceable. That's not to say the agreements don't exist, but my understanding is that all AFL contracts have to be ratified by the AFL and that any side agreement can't be enforced - putting paid to agreement 1). As for agreement 2), GC and Tippett might have come to terms, but any such contract would be based on a condition precedent that either Adelaide trades Tippett to GC or Tippett allows his contract to lapse and is drafted by GC. Either way, teh contract could only possibly come into force once Tippett is actually a GC player, which is not something that is actually within Tippett or GC's control.

So what I'm trying to say is this: these agreements you speak of may or may not exist, but if they do and the Crows don't like them, they can pretty much just ignore them. And if they do that, any "deal" Tippett may have done with Gold Coast is not worth the paper it's written on until they actually come to an arrangement with the Crows or take their chances in the draft.

 

[A FEW GOOD MEN]

lol. Couldn't be worse for your club really.
Remember, we're not trying to trade for him, he wants to come home.

The Brisbane Lions. I think you will find that you are irrelevant in this.

 

[srv23]

lol. Couldn't be worse for your club really.
Remember, we're not trying to trade for him, he wants to come home.

LOL Couldn't be worse? Yeah it would really suck to win the flag this year.

 

[jackster83]

lol. Couldn't be worse for your club really.
Remember, we're not trying to trade for him, he wants to come home.

What, like how Mitch Clark wanted to go "home" last year?

 

[Bob Neil]

Here's one from left field for a bit of fun...put yourself in Kurt's shoes at the end of last season. Gold Coast have come onto the scene with Gablett and a bunch of highly promising young stars, they've done okay in their first season and all indications are that they'll have a spike (!) in performance in the year to come. Contrast that with Adelaide who have slumped to a terrible finish in 2011 and now find themselves without a coach and with most good judges predicting more bleak times ahead.

Maybe Kurt thought the grass was greener on the other side both personally and professionally and did sign/reach in-principle agreement with GC to come back at the end of 2012 (without the AFC's knowledge or consent of course)

But is it just possible that now it is Kurt having second thoughts and wanting to get out of a GC deal...their list has taken a step backwards with question marks over them and their coach, the road to success and ultimately a premiership for them is fair less than clear than previously thought. Whilst in contrast the Crows have bounced back, with an excellent young coach whom Kurt gets on well with and very tangible prospects for success this year and in the coming years.

Any chance that this is the reason for the hold-up? Or just wishful thinking...

 

[A FEW GOOD MEN]

So what I'm trying to say is this: these agreements you speak of may or may not exist, but if they do and the Crows don't like them, they can pretty much just ignore them. And if they do that, any "deal" Tippett may have done with Gold Coast is not worth the paper it's written on until they actually come to an arrangement with the Crows or take their chances in the draft.

Do you seriously think that when Kurt and his manager (was he being managed by Goldilocks at the time) said to John Reid.

Kurt: I am happy to extend my contract until the end of 2012 provided you will guarantee that if required I can get to the Gold Coast at the end of the contract.

JR: No worries, you have my word.

Kurt and Goldilocks; Thanks JR your word is good enough for us.

On the other hand, the "arrangement" may have included a third party. Now such an agreement may not hold up in a court of law but reneging on the deal has enormous ramifications for future trading with not only the Gold Coast but all other clubs.

 

[Elder van Berlo]

Do you seriously think that when Kurt and his manager (was he being managed by Goldilocks at the time) said to John Reid.

Kurt: I am happy to extend my contract until the end of 2012 provided you will guarantee that if required I can get to the Gold Coast at the end of the contract.

JR: No worries, you have my word.

Kurt and Goldilocks; Thanks JR your word is good enough for us.

On the other hand, the "arrangement" may have included a third party. Now such an agreement may not hold up in a court of law but reneging on the deal has enormous ramifications for future trading with not only the Gold Coast but all other clubs.

I have no doubt that is an implicit part of all negotiations that if a player wants to leave, the club will attempt to facilitate a trade. It's also probable that a conversation to that effect expressly took place when Tippett was negotiating a new contract in 2009.

What I have trouble believing is that there was any firm arrangement (whether binding or otherwise) made in 2009, saying what the compensation would be if Kurt wants to leave in 3 years. I also have trouble believing that if such an arrangement was made, that it would have been as vague as "whatever the AFL would give if we took him as an uncontracted player", without agreeing exactly what the AFL would give in such a situation. Even to say "a first round draft pick" is vague and uncertain. That could be anywhere between pick 1 and 22 (at the moment, and possibly lower once FAs are signed and any new GWS compo picks are activated).

If your information is correct, I would be more inclined to believe that we said something along the lines of "if you sign now and want to go home in 3 years, we will be reasonable at the trade table", and that Kurt might have signed a heads of agreement or something with GC last year, having decided at the time that Adelaide was going nowhere. Regardless, it would have to be contingent on him actually getting to GC under AFL player movement rules, because he's not a free agent.

I believe Kurt will go, but that it has turned out to be a tougher decision than he thought it would be 12 months ago. Possibly even a decision he hasn't made yet.

What I really don't believe is that it is all done and dusted, with the trade deal and the contract having already been signed months or even years ago.

 

[whatboutbob]

Do you seriously think that when Kurt and his manager (was he being managed by Goldilocks at the time)....

FWIW Tippett is managed by the same mob who manage Tom Scully - Velocity Sports.

 

[jenny61_99]

What, like how Mitch Clark wanted to go "home" last year?

I know Mitch really wanted out of Brisbane. His preference was "home", but he absolutely wanted away from Voss. He'd had 2 offers from Sheedy for GWS on the table quite early in the season. One for 3 years, one for 5 - and mega $$$. Fremantle weren't prepared to come to the party, so what choice did he have? GWS or.... Melbourne were the only other Club to put their hand up. His choice was limited, and he made the best choice under the circumstances. Very different to Tippetts situation IMO.

 

[Hollow Knight]

I know Mitch really wanted out of Brisbane. His preference was "home", but he absolutely wanted away from Voss.

No offense Jenny (and I feel you've copped some harsh treatment in this thread) but that is actually complete crap. Mitch was actually quite close with Voss and I reckon he'd be quite annoyed if people were saying otherwise.

Mitch's private life and divorce got exceedingly messy up here and that is why he wanted to get away from Brisbane (the city) for a fresh start.

 

[A FEW GOOD MEN]

I have no doubt that is an implicit part of all negotiations that if a player wants to leave, the club will attempt to facilitate a trade. It's also probable that a conversation to that effect expressly took place when Tippett was negotiating a new contract in 2009.

What I have trouble believing is that there was any firm arrangement (whether binding or otherwise) made in 2009, saying what the compensation would be if Kurt wants to leave in 3 years. I also have trouble believing that if such an arrangement was made, that it would have been as vague as "whatever the AFL would give if we took him as an uncontracted player", without agreeing exactly what the AFL would give in such a situation. Even to say "a first round draft pick" is vague and uncertain. That could be anywhere between pick 1 and 22 (at the moment, and possibly lower once FAs are signed and any new GWS compo picks are activated).

Firstly no player or player manager would accept something as vague as "we'll look after you at the trade table" when they have a guaranteed return home in 12 months time.

The problem was that in late 2009 no one knew what the AFL compensation would be. The AFC were to say the least shocked with the compensation that they received for Nathan Bock twelve months later. It is also impossible to say we want pick 5 or anything that specific. The best that Gold Coast could offer was their first and/or second round draft picks. As you outlined theoretically this could have been pick number 1 and number 22 or it could be as low as number 21 and 40 this year (in the highly unlikely outcome that Gold Coast won the 2012 flag).

The in principle arrangement between the AFC, Kurt and Gold Coast couldn't be precise and I understand that it was worded in a way that may lead to different interpretations. If Kurt went in the draft at the end of the year what number would he go? I would argue that GWS would probably take him at number 1 but he would certainly be in the top 5. There is no way that we will get full value for Kurt (since Gold Coast could have picked him up for free with the AFL picking up the bill). I don't know the exact wording of the agreement but it is much less generous that the BF optimists would like. Our only hope was to engineer a better deal with Brisbane which would fulfill our agreement to provide the opportunity for him to go home.

Unfortunately the inner sanctum at West Lakes are now convinced that Kurt has already done the deal with the Gold Coast and the options are
1) Renege on the "arrangement" and suffer the future consequences.
2) Suck it up and fulfill the arrangement.

It would be fair to say that some people at West Lakes are white hot with anger and not everyone agrees with the current approach of burying our heads in the sand until the season is over. Some people passionately believe that our chance of winning the flag will be increased by bringing this to a head.

It's a bit like politics, when there are different "factions" then "leaks" start to happen. Does anyone really believe that Roo was just a loose cannon?

 

[jenny61_99]

No offense Jenny (and I feel you've copped some harsh treatment in this thread) but that is actually complete crap. Mitch was actually quite close with Voss and I reckon he'd be quite annoyed if people were saying otherwise.

Mitch's private life and divorce got exceedingly messy up here and that is why he wanted to get away from Brisbane (the city) for a fresh start.

No offence, but not crap at all. I have a very reliable source on this. He didn't like Voss and wanted out the year before but Voss wouldn't do the deal. So he waited for his contract to expire. And I'll tell you this, he wasn't on his own about wanting out. Some got out... some are still there.

 

[Elder van Berlo]

The in principle arrangement between the AFC, Kurt and Gold Coast couldn't be precise and I understand that it was worded in a way that may lead to different interpretations.

...

Unfortunately the inner sanctum at West Lakes are now convinced that Kurt has already done the deal with the Gold Coast and the options are
1) Renege on the "arrangement" and suffer the future consequences.
2) Suck it up and fulfill the arrangement.

See this is where I think your version of events, wherever it comes from, doesn't quite add up. I understand you're probably paraphrasing, but if the in principle arrangement can be interpreted in different ways, then "reneging" is a very strong way to describe simply adopting our interpretation of it. Similarly "fulfilling" it implies some certainty as to what exactly "it" is.

I tend to think that regardless of what the "arrangement" is, negotiations will probably end up starting again, albeit informed broadly by what was in the arrangement.

Anyway, there's probably not much point going any further with this - it's done its dash unless there's more you can tell us. Your original point on this particular tangent was that Kurt already signed with GC last year, which is plausible (if not binding). Will be interesting to find out - if we ever do - whether or not that's true.