Religion The God Question (continued in Part 2 - link in last post)

[Hard_to_Beat]

I don't really see one type of Christianity right, as long as they believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ I consider that person saved. You could almost say I'm non denominational although I go to a Baptist church as I see them as the most normal denom in the way that they follow the bible and gospels and don't add on anything (like LDS or JW). I guess this is how I see the RC church, as more of a business organisation than church but as I said before that's not fair on the practising Catholics. The religious practices I really adhere to are the commandments and laws of God of the bible, not any extra biblical practices specific to certain denominations. I do believe though that if you chose to be baptised, it should be when you make your own choice- but I don't see baptism as a necessity to being saved. I wonder how many people think they're going to heaven solely for the fact they were baptised/christened as a baby?

You adhere to your social programming.

 

[rayven]

I admire the true humanitarian work done by many of the mainstream churches (Anglican, RC, etc) and the seemingly continually selfless Salvos.

This year in the area I live in, uniting care workers( funded by the fed government )were advising poor people seeking Christmas assistant to tell everyone not to donate to the Salvos ( funded by donations/door knocking) Christmas tree as it wasn't for local kids (so they said). They said donate to Target instead! Salvoes were in partnership with kmart

Where's the love? I don't see it, if charities are fighting like this? this is some sort of department store war, what do they really think of the ones needing charity? obviously nothing. Perhaps the charities (christian ones) are about themselves not about the people?

 

[Monniehawk]

This year in the area I live in, uniting care workers( funded by the fed government )were advising poor people seeking Christmas assistant to tell everyone not to donate to the Salvos ( funded by donations/door knocking) Christmas tree as it wasn't for local kids (so they said). They said donate to Target instead! Salvoes were in partnership with kmart

Could I suggest that this is almost certainly more the perception of over-zealous Salvo volunteers, than than a direct policy - or even a mentality - of the UCA as an organisation?
I'd also suggest that most larger organisations (UCA, Lions, Rotary, etc.) would tend to pool the collections and distribute according to need. Some areas need more than is locally raised.
BTW. Virtually all mainstream churches are given government grants to continue their social work. Other secular organisations are also involved. They each have to apply for funding and then meet fairly stringent criteria. It is a 'business contract' where the government hives off its welfare responsibilities to a largely volunteer, community-based workforce.
If you had worked in that field, you might see it actually makes some economic and social sense.

 

[rayven]

Could I suggest that this is almost certainly more the perception of over-zealous Salvo volunteers, than than a direct policy - or even a mentality - of the UCA as an organisation?

You can suggest it as much as a typical uniting care supporter wants, but in my area the workers filling out the application for hamper assistance this Christmas were lobbying the clients in the interview to avoid the salvos and specifically pushed the venues they were in partnership for. An apparent perceived over zealous salvo volunteer might think that the organizations employees actively did similar with family and friends.

I'd also suggest that most larger organisations (UCA, Lions, Rotary, etc.) would tend to pool the collections and distribute according to need. Some areas need more than is locally raised.

yes.

If you had worked in that field, you might see it actually makes some economic and social sense.

Well I have and I see that a lot of volunteers are actually taken advantage of, and alot of positions including paid ones are staffed by people without the skills that the roles require. It does make economic sense conning people to volunteer to save on wages. it does a make some sort of social sense getting old ladies off the pokie machine chair and standing around short changing you when you purchase from the op shop they give there time too.

In the rural organizations you get alot of nepotism. Alot of the grants that are applied for through the department of human services, are actually quite fraudulent. Its just the nature of the client there is little accountability. Your dealing with the poor, noone really takes them seriously, the ruling class tend to think they don't understand and fog off there issues, much like you doing here. Mind you I'm experienced in a regional area, more than likely its different in the city.

Thats getting away from my point and more to my agenda, these organizations are getting in a marketing war between two large international department stores who only want to fleece customers for all they can , who (department stores) also run any PR campaign that facilitates that end result. Then they (UC/anglacare and such) complain about how stressful Christmas can be for the needy as result of how commercialism is dominating Christmas.

DO"H

 

[Monniehawk]

You can suggest it as much as a typical uniting care supporter wants, but in my area the workers filling out the application for hamper assistance this Christmas were lobbying the clients in the interview to avoid the salvos and specifically pushed the venues they were in partnership for. An apparent perceived over zealous salvo volunteer might think that the organizations employees actively did similar with family and friends.

I had no intention of trivialising the issue. As you state, it is in 'your area' and one would hope it was confined to that. Still, it needs to be reported in detail to an authority, no matter how isolated the incident.

Well I have and I see that a lot of volunteers are actually taken advantage of, and alot of positions including paid ones are staffed by people without the skills that the roles require. It does make economic sense conning people to volunteer to save on wages. it does a make some sort of social sense getting old ladies off the pokie machine chair and standing around short changing you when you purchase from the op shop they give there time too.

Many of those 'conned' volunteers are fully aware of what the scheme of things are, but the tasks still have to be done. The government is happy to have cheap labour, but there is also the direct involvement of locals helping others that is a benefit less tangible.
Don't underestimate the warm and fuzzy feeling of helping your neighbours.

In the rural organizations you get alot of nepotism. Alot of the grants that are applied for through the department of human services, are actually quite fraudulent. Its just the nature of the client there is little accountability. Your dealing with the poor, noone really takes them seriously, the ruling class tend to think they don't understand and fog off there issues, much like you doing here. Mind you I'm experienced in a regional area, more than likely its different in the city.

Nepotism is a human quality, not a rural one.
There is accountability (ever been through the paper warfare when running a charity event?), responsibility and a fair whack of heavy-handed bureaucracy. Each, again, is the nature of people. The government doesn't like giving money away without seeing something for it, but there are slick traders who make a career of marketing, reading bureaucracies and side-stepping legislation and they sell themselves to charity groups on a commission basis.
The disadvantaged still need support. I feel for your concerns, but take it further than BF so they can get it right.

Thats getting away from my point and more to my agenda, these organizations are getting in a marketing war between two large international department stores who only want to fleece customers for all they can , who (department stores) also run any PR campaign that facilitates that end result. Then they (UC/anglacare and such) complain about how stressful Christmas can be for the needy as result of how commercialism is dominating Christmas.

Yes! And this is the real issue!
Having dealt with similar situations myself, I can see the marketing and economic power of the companies running rings around the charities. Although not all are so mercenary, there are different imperatives for commerce, but the companies can see big profits and PR brownie points if they position themselves right. You can see that the charities are actually the victims of this trend, rather than perpetrators.
All the more reason to expose this whole turgid mess - in another arena.
Start something.

 

[holy diver]

The ones that are applicable and acceptable in today's times obviously like the ten commandments. was it even worth posting dude?

So you pick and choose the parts of the bible you decide to adhere and that in your mind makes you the proper christian?

You lack the courage to follow your ancient text. Do you not trust in yahweh's instructions. Perhaps baal may have the answers.

How do you decide what's applicable? Do you claim to know the mind of god, dude?

 

[Bennett.]

So you pick and choose the parts of the bible you decide to adhere and that in your mind makes you the proper christian?

You lack the courage to follow your ancient text. Do you not trust in yahweh's instructions. Perhaps baal may have the answers.

How do you decide what's applicable? Do you claim to know the mind of god, dude?

Do you even yourself believe the tripe that you come out with?
I understand trolling etc, but rehashing old and foolish lines for cheap points
in a futile effort to try to show that you are knowledgeable about the subject
when in fact, you are quite ignorant, does nobody any service.

 

[rayven]

Do you even yourself believe the tripe that you come out with?
I understand trolling etc, but rehashing old and foolish lines for cheap points
in a futile effort to try to show that you are knowledgeable about the subject
when in fact, you are quite ignorant, does nobody any service.

He's not trolling, he's pissed at religon as a result of experience, not belief..

 

[evo]

It is all too convenient, isn't it.

Moreover, the similarities to Jebus are not just confined to Horus. Many other religious, folk and cultural 'heros' display these characteristics - Lord Raglan documented them....

http://department.monm.edu/classics/courses/clas230/mythdocuments/heropattern/default.htm

 

[Bennett.]

Oh, come on, all that revisionist tripe. Actually do some research and you'll find that the story of Jesus does not mirror any of the other legends of gods.

 

[Bennett.]

He's not trolling, he's pissed at religon as a result of experience, not belief..

Yep, we've all sadly had our bad experiences with religion. Unfortunately, putting our trust in people rather than a God will do that.
However, being blindly dismissive of things out of hurt, hatred, ignorance or whatever does not actually help. It's playing the man in a way.

 

[Bennett.]

The Truth About Horus
The mythical Egyptian God, Horus, was worshipped principally in two cult centers at Bekhdet in the North and Idfu in the south. Little remains at the northern location, but there is still a large and well preserved Ptolemaic temple at Idfu. So, most information about Horus comes from this southern temple. Horus was usually represented as a falcon, as he was a great sky God and the Son of Isis and Osiris. Let’s take a look at the claims we have already described and separate truth from fiction, and then try to understand the underlying hope of the people who invented the god called Horus:
Claim: Horus was conceived by a virgin mother named Meri, and had a stepfather named Seb (Joseph)
Truth: Horus was NOT conceived of a virgin. In fact both mural and textual evidence from Egypt indicate that Isis (there is no evidence that “Meri” was ever part of her name) hovered over the erect penis (that she created) of Osiris and conceived Horus. While she may have been a virgin before the conception, she utilizes Osiris’ penis to conceive. She later had another son with Osiris as well. There is no evidence of three wise men as part of the story at all (in neither Horus’ nor Jesus’ birth story for that matter!). Seb was actually the ‘earth god’, (earth itself, just as Nut was the sky); He was not Horus’ earthly father. Seb is NOT the equivalent of Joseph and, in most cases, he is described as Osiris’ father!
The Reasoning Behind the Horus Mythology: Clearly men dream and think about God, and when we do that, it is reasonable for us to imagine that God be in some way different from the natural order that He has created. It’s reasonable to assume then, that He would appear in a supernatural way, defying the natural order of things.
Claim: Horus was born in a cave, his birth announced by an angel, heralded by a star and attended by shepherds
Truth: There is no reference to a cave or manger in the birth story at all. In fact none of these details are present in the ancient Egyptian stories of Horus. Horus was born in a swamp. His birth was not heralded by an angel. There was no star to announce his birth.
Claim: Horus attended a special rite of passage at the age of twelve and there is no data on the child from the age of 12 to 30
Truth: There is no continuous effort in the Horus mythology to account for all these years, so there are no real gaps in the chronology. Horus never taught in any temple at twelve (as did Jesus), and keep in mind that Jesus didn’t ‘disappear’ in the years between His teaching in the temple and His baptism. He was simply working as a carpenter.
Claim: Horus was baptized in a river at the age of 30, and his baptizer was later beheaded.
Truth: Horus was never baptized. While the conspiracy theorists will often point to “Anup the Baptizer” and claim he was later beheaded, there is no such person in Horus’ story.
Claim: Horus had 12 disciples
Truth: Horus had only four disciples (called ‘Heru-Shemsu’), but at some point in his story there is reference to sixteen followers, and a group of unnumbered followers who join Horus in battle (called ‘mesnui’). But there’s no reference to twelve followers.
The Reasoning Behind the Horus Mythology: It is reasonable to imagine that God, if he was to come to earth, would then gather to himself disciples that would continue to share the truth with others.
Claim: Horus performed miracles, exorcized demons, raised someone from the dead, walked on water
Truth: Of course Horus performed miracles, after all he was supposed to be a god!! But there was no mention of exorcizing demons, raising people from the dead or walking on water.
The Reasoning Behind the Horus Mythology: It is reasonable to expect that if there is a God (a true God), He would have the power to perform the miraculous and control the forces of the natural environment.
Claim: Horus was called “Iusa”, the “ever-becoming son” and the “Holy Child”
Truth: No one in Egyptian history was ever called “Iusa” (the word does not exist) nor was anyone called “Holy Child”.
Claim: Horus delivered a “Sermon on the Mount”, and his followers recounted his sayings. He was transfigured on the Mount
Truth: Horus never delivered a “Sermon on the Mount”, nor was he transfigured.
Claim: Horus was crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, and was resurrected
Truth: Horus is not reported to have died at all in the vast majority of story versions. There is also no crucifixion story. Instead, Horus is usually described as eventually merging with Re (the Sun god) after which he ‘dies’ and is ‘reborn’ every single day as the sun rises. (This is a bit of a stretch at a death and resurrection parallel). Now there is an unofficial story that describes Horus as dying and being cast in pieces into the water, and later fished out by a crocodile at Isis’ request.
The Reasoning Behind the Horus Mythology: If there is a true God, we would expect him to have mastery over death and be able to control the powers of death and life.
Claim: Horus was called “Way”, “the Truth the Light”, “Messiah”, “God’s Anointed Son”, “Son of Man”, “Good Shepherd”, “Lamb of God”, “Word made flesh”, “Word of Truth”, “the KRST” or “Anointed One”
Truth: None of these titles are in Egyptian history, but Horus IS called by several names you might expect for any god in mythology: “Great God”, “Chief of the Powers”, “Master of Heaven”, and “Avenger of His Father”. Horus was also not called “the Krst” because this word in Egyptian means “burial” (it wasn’t a title at all).
The Reasoning Behind the Horus Mythology: If there is a God, we would expect Him to be powerful and possess a title that reflects that power.
Claim: Horus was “the Fisher” and was associated with the Fish, Lamb and Lion.
Truth: Some of the conspiracy theorists try to show an association with fish (by virtue of the fact that Horus WAS a fish, very unlike Jesus), but there is no evidence that Horus was ever called a “fisher” or was ever associated with the Lion or the Lamb.
Claim: Horus came to fulfill the Law, and was supposed to reign one thousand years
Truth: There was no Egyptian “law” for Horus to fulfill, and there is no mention of a thousand year reign in Egyptian mythology.
So, What is Left?
From this quick examination of the Horus tradition, we can see that he was NOT conceived of a virgin, and his mother’s name was NOT Meri. There were NOT three wise men who attended his birth, and he had NO earthly father named Joseph. He was NOT born in a cave or manger (he was born in a swamp), his birth was NOT heralded by an angel, nor was it attended by shepherds. There are NO missing 18 years in his life story, and NO story about a special event in the temple at twelve. He was NOT baptized at 30 by a baptizer who was later beheaded. He did NOT have 12 disciples, and while he certainly performed miracles, he did NOT exorcize demons, raise the dead or walk on water like Jesus. Horus was NOT called, “Iusa”, the “ever-becoming son”, the “Holy Child”, the “Way”, “the Truth the Light”, “Messiah”, “God’s Anointed Son”, “Son of Man”, “Good Shepherd”, “Lamb of God”, “Word made flesh”, “Word of Truth”, “the KRST” or the “Anointed One”! He did NOT deliver a “Sermon on the Mount”, NOR was he transfigured. He was NOT crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, NOR resurrected! He did NOT come to fulfill the law and was NOT said to reign for one thousand years. So in hindsight, how similar is Horus to Jesus after all?

 

[Bennett.]

No, just thoroughly answering a fallacy

 

[Pie eyed]

No, just thoroughly answering a fallacy

How do you separate one man's fallacy from another man's fallacy when the only logical difference between the two is a generational gap in when these fallacy were both equally "believed" and adhered to?

 

[evo]

No, just thoroughly answering a fallacy

Pah! This doesn't even go part way to explaining why we see these hero archetypes arise time and time again across numerous eras and cultures. Despite your protestations Jesus fits neatly into this archetype too.

It is obvious, to me at least, that the Jesus story like many before and after in history was just another manifestation of the ritual-myth paradigm. They are all too similar to be coincidence.No doubt those of a psycho-analytic bent could explain why this is so.

Moreover it shows that Jesus is about as likely to literally be the son of God as Heracles, Krishna or Watu Gunung of Java.

Unfortunately, he's just a very naughty boy.

 

[tb_fanboy]

How do you separate one man's fallacy from another man's fallacy when the only logical difference between the two is a generational gap in when these fallacy were both equally "believed" and adhered to?

One was written about a mythical God, one written from a supposedly real God

 

[Pie eyed]

One was written about a mythical God, one written from a supposedly real God

The only difference I see is a localised preponderance of the faithful professing the "truth" of their allegedly real God.
The Horus myth was probably much discussed in the antiquarian equivalent of BF SRP board all those moons ago. Equally adament of the correctness of their views.

Your first statement "written about a mythical God" is that of any atheist, non-theist or anti-theist, except you qualify it by adding "written from a supposedly real God", hinting that there is a supernatural being which does exist and is evidenced.

 

[Pie eyed]

Comparing apples with oranges is no less a discussion about fruit.

Faith was and is no more or less fatal than questioning the faith being espoused by those in power was, at anytime in history.
Whether religious or any other kind of faith.

People have died for their faiths, of every kind, since people first banded together in groups. Their deaths at the hands of others or their own hands lend not a single iota of credibility to their beliefs other than that they believed them.

 

[Pie eyed]

yes but, no but..Horus people weren't questioning anybody, they supported the authorities.
Choosing to be Christian didn't prove it was true, but they carried a cost the Horusians didn't (pronounced "horusian"). And Christians didn't start out trying to take power, it was just a belief they had which was likely to be deadly.

Christianity only rose from the cacophony of rival cults after Rome adopted it as the principal religion for political purposes. Had this not happened Christianity would be no different than innumerable cults which went before and since.
No people have been as violently repressed as the Jews in recent history.

This lend not more credence to their beliefs.....

 

[placebo]

Pah! This doesn't even go part way to explaining why we see these hero archetypes arise time and time again across numerous eras and cultures. Despite your protestations Jesus fits neatly into this archetype too.

It is obvious, to me at least, that the Jesus story like many before and after in history was just another manifestation of the ritual-myth paradigm. They are all too similar to be coincidence.No doubt those of a psycho-analytic bent could explain why this is so.

Moreover it shows that Jesus is about as likely to literally be the son of God as Heracles, Krishna or Watu Gunung of Java.

Unfortunately, he's just a very naughty boy.

I can't decide whose beard I like better, Heracles or Jesus.

 

[Pie eyed]

I'm only doing this to get 25 posts up so I can start a thread about my hidden agenda. How's your day so far?

I thought as much......
Who are you really? (As Noah said in response to God's request to build an Ark.)

 

[Bennett.]

Christianity only rose from the cacophony of rival cults after Rome adopted it as the principal religion for political purposes. Had this not happened Christianity would be no different than innumerable cults which went before and since.
No people have been as violently repressed as the Jews in recent history.

This lend not more credence to their beliefs.....

This is completely silly. Christianity was not adopted by Rome until 313AD. You are conveniently leaving out the previous 250-odd years of
growth of the early church and giving no credence to the fact that Rome chose to make it the official religion as it could not quash it.
Why does this happen? The early church growth was almost unbelievable - through persecution, death, violence it grew exponentially.
Do not try to pass it off as only surviving because of Rome. If you had any ability to think critically, you could see this.

 

[Pie eyed]

This is completely silly. Christianity was not adopted by Rome until 313AD. You are conveniently leaving out the previous 250-odd years of
growth of the early church and giving no credence to the fact that Rome chose to make it the official religion as it could not quash it.
Why does this happen? The early church growth was almost unbelievable - through persecution, death, violence it grew exponentially.
Do not try to pass it off as only surviving because of Rome. If you had any ability to think critically, you could see this.

I am conveniently stating the facts.

 

[Tassieboy]

Spartwana, since you're a religious fellow whose bullshit radar has obviously failed, it's a little peculiar to accuse someone of not thinking critically...

 

[Tassieboy]

Anyone else find it repulsive that Catholic fellows bombard Government schools spreading their wicked crap? Fair enough if people from all religions and evolution was well covered and everything was critically analysed but it usually is not - in Tasmania anyhow.