Religion The God Question (continued in Part 2 - link in last post)

[Monniehawk]

Did I not say this: "The problem lies with fallible humans and their flawed reasoning of the scriptures." So, good post, captain obvious.

I was gently suggesting the faint possibility that it could equally be you who is the fallible human with the flawed reasoning....
Or, "the rest of the parade is marching out of step" syndrome.
Since you raised the idea of fallibility, and apportioned the flaws to others, I felt compelled to point out that it is merely a matter of relative perception.
sorry if that is jarring.

 

[Pie eyed]

Look for it yourself. Your comment here goes to show that you trash something you haven't read for yourself. Not that I didn't already know this, but hence why I ignore most of your posts relating to God.

You are the one making the ridiculous claim.
I have read the Bible many times, several versions and there is no science in any.
Either post a sliver or retract your rubbish.
Either you, your self have never read the bible or you could not recognize science if it bit you in the arse.

In fact back a up single paragraph of the Bible with some fact or simply admit it has no basis in fact whatsoever.

 

[tesseract]

Killing for your god. Old Testament. You refuse to answer a simple question because you don't like the answer. If god appeared to you today and asked you to kill your child for him, would you do it?






What you call "troll" seems to be the bare facts of the bible. I'm not doing anything other than questioning direct passages from the bible. Since when has asking a question of someone who is a believer a troll? I don't have a supernatural entity as the guiding principle in my life. I am earnestly interested to see if you would openly admit that you would kill for your god or any christian for that matter if your god demanded it from you.




Yes it is ad-hom when you assume I haven't read any holy text or done a fair bit of personal research and go on to flippantly label me a troll as I have a differing opinion to you. I could say you are trolling reality believing in the supernatural but I don't feel the need. It just seems our minds have come to different conclusions with the evidence at hand.
BTW A few funny meme pics shouldn't upset you. They are right on the money. Kirk Cameron is a douche bag. I make no apologies for poking fun at that hate filled bigot. Not to mention his mate Ray Comfort's Atheist Nightmare Banana evidence that in his mind disproves evolution and proves creationism. A banana.

Tess, are you upset by the memes that are posted that critique Islam, Mormonism, Scientology or New Age religions or psychics?

Get it right. You claim to have read the bible a number of times, yet the situation I pointed to there was no killing of any human. I answered your question, did I not? You have your response. It seems to me that you're upset with that response because it wasn't what you expected. As for you re-asking the same question - asked and answered!

Condescending comments, memes, not understanding the bible but twisting passages to suit yourself isn't considered trolling to you? Now there's two things you don't understand: the bible, and now what trolling is. Btw, I've already asked you, politely, not to bother asking personal questions. If you want this info from a Christian, ask one that is accepting of providing personal answers.

My remark wasn't about whether you've read any holy book or not, done research into those, or because you have a difference of opinion to me. I said "the proof that you're a troll is littered within this thread, with your mocking pics and condescending posts." What I called you a troll over is indeed correct, for you've done those things I've claimed that make you a troll. Indisputable!

I'm not upset by you posting memes or condescending posts of any religion, including Christianity. But whether or not I'm upset or not is irrelevant in regards to such things you produce which identify you as a troll.

 

[Pie eyed]

When someone can explain our reason for being, I will stop believing there is a god.

To pass on genetic information.
Your just a messenger.

 

[tesseract]

I was gently suggesting the faint possibility that it could equally be you who is the fallible human with the flawed reasoning....
Or, "the rest of the parade is marching out of step" syndrome.
Since you raised the idea of fallibility, and apportioned the flaws to others, I felt compelled to point out that it is merely a matter of relative perception.
sorry if that is jarring.

Since I'm human, my statement of "fallible humans" is inclusive of myself. Perception isn't the issue in this case though, because there's objective measures as to which group/s is obeying God and which ones aren't. Doing as God instructs from the bible is that measure. As the bible says: "By their fruit you will recognize them."

 

[tesseract]

You are the one making the ridiculous claim.
I have read the Bible many times, several versions and there is no science in any.
Either post a sliver or retract your rubbish.
Either you, your self have never read the bible or you could not recognize science if it bit you in the arse.

In fact back a up single paragraph of the Bible with some fact or simply admit it has no basis in fact whatsoever.

You're either an idiot for saying there's no science in the bible, a liar for saying that you've actually read the bible, or understanding what you've read in the bible has gone over your head. There's at least two dozen more examples if you care to Google the topic.

The Bible described the shape of the earth centuries before people thought that the earth was spherical.

Isaiah 40:22
It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.

The word translated “circle” here is the Hebrew word chuwg which is also translated “circuit,” or “compass” (depending on the context). That is, it indicates something spherical, rounded, or arched—not something that is flat or square.
The book of Isaiah was written sometime between 740 and 680 BC. This is at least 300 years before Aristotle suggested that the earth might be a sphere in this book On the heavens.

 

[Pie eyed]

You're either an idiot for saying there's no science in the bible, a liar for saying that you've actually read the bible, or understanding what you've read in the bible has gone over your head. There's at least two dozen more examples if you care to Google the topic.

The Bible described the shape of the earth centuries before people thought that the earth was spherical.

Isaiah 40:22
It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.

The word translated “circle” here is the Hebrew word chuwg which is also translated “circuit,” or “compass” (depending on the context). That is, it indicates something spherical, rounded, or arched—not something that is flat or square.
The book of Isaiah was written sometime between 740 and 680 BC. This is at least 300 years before Aristotle suggested that the earth might be a sphere in this book On the heavens.

The size of the Earth was determined for the first time some 2,200 years ago. At the time it was already known that our world is a sphere, but nobody had as yet come up with a way of accurately measuring its circumference.

That the earth is a sphere was one of the discoveries made by Pythagoras, a Greek philosopher who lived in the sixth century, B.C

Plutarch attributed the discovery that the earth is a sphere to Thales of Miletus, who preceded Pythagoras by a generation

I rest my case.
Apparently God only realized the earth was a circle or conveniently the word "chuwg" which literally translates to "circuit" has been
spontaneously, without need, other the obvious fraud, changed to "circle".

Let's read that first line as it reads without extraneous tampering....

"It is He who sits above the circuit of the earth,"

Yep that's conclusive....not.

Keep posting such stuff.
I look forward to smashing it.

 

[tesseract]

I rest my case.
Apparently God only realized the earth was a circle.
Keep posting such stuff.
I look forward to smashing it.

More like your claim of "no science in any (bible)" has been found out to be false. You are smashing something, but my posts you are not. Perhaps the beers though.

Btw, even your edit is clutching at straws and a fail.

 

[bombermick]

And why should it?
Let's think it through.
To validly do "something", society would first have to assess that "religion" (per se) is in some way fundamentally wrong, undesirable or evil.
I just do not subscribe to that notion. Even as an atheist, I can see religion in general as not a threat, but just another human construct trying to reconcile man's place in the universe. (Specific manifestations of particular religions may well be a different matter!)
Therefore religion entertains a number of the flaws of humanity. Like Capitalism or Welfare. It may not be perfect, but it requires constant maintenance to keep it in line. Not annihilation.
I find it abhorrent that a society would completely ban religion from children (Avert your eyes, son. Here comes a nun!!) because of a rather paranoid fear that xians are manipulative, deranged or irrational mind-twisters. Strike! That criteria endangers icons such as News Ltd, Gina Rinehart, Anzac/Australia Day, Scouts, the Union Movement, H.R. Nichols Society, the Business Council of Australia, ATSIG, etc, and any school ever built!
Aboriginal kids would necessarily have to be denied access to the so-called 'Dreaming' thereby losing contact with a fundamental part of their cultural heritage.
By all means monitor and temper any aberrations, but banning a complete human activity that does not fully address our prejudices or philosophical expectations is pretty severe. It would send us beyond the Dark Ages!
I'd go to war over that one!

I agree. I guess I'm annoyed about kids not having an open mind because I used to hang around those children all the time. Most Christians are very decent people, and quite a few are open-minded. But, like all religions many of its more fervent followers end up not questioning.

As long as their schools teach what the state demands (receiving public funds) it's okay.

 

[bombermick]

Where does the bible say "every animal was created almost simultaneously 6000 years ago"?

Unlike some believers who turn to an authority on matters such as homosexuality, those who believe as you do make up their own morality as they go, then claim that their way is correct and believers are wrong. Who to believe... an infallible God or a fallible human?

"In the beginning God created ..." If you count the dates in the genealogies a figure between 6000-7000 is what you get. Even if you reject that figure, creationism requires each "kind" being created almost simultaneously. This is despite the fossil record clearly showing this to be incorrect.

The morality of the west works very well, much better than the Christian ethos it once lived by. The best countries to live in according to the UN Developmental Index include heathen states like Finland and Australia. Much better than the U.S where it's still common for the religious to try to force their version of morality on everyone else.

edit: As for the verse in Isiaih it seems the knowledge of Earth's spherical shape was lost, just like has happened many times before. The Middle and Dark Ages was very anti-intellectual, where to question meant death. It wasn't the case in the centuries before Jesus.

 

[Pie eyed]

More like your claim of "no science in any (bible)" has been found out to be false. You are smashing something, but my posts you are not. Perhaps the beers though.

The bible overwhelmingly describes the Earth as flat, square and immovable. That last attempt was pathetic. Admit it.

Isaiah 11:12
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH. (KJV)

Daniel 4:11
11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the ENDS OF ALL THE EARTH: (KJV)

The Psalm 104:5 and Ecclesiastes 1:5 verses from the Bible in this section were sent to me by Abdullah Bisyir; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him.
"He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 104:5)"

"The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises. (From the NIV Bible, Ecclesiastes 1:5)"

 

[Pie eyed]

in Genesis 1. God makes the Earth, and then makes “light” (vaguely), and then makes the Sun and other stars. He makes all the plants before there’s a Sun. (How do they photosynthesize?) These are specifically described as flowering plants, which did not in fact exist before there were any animals on the planet. God makes every animal that lives in the water and every bird before he makes any animals that live on land, which is not how it happened. Marine mammals like whales, seals, and manatees, for just one example, evolved from land animals. There’s also this very strange thing about heaven, sky, and earth being made in the midst of some continuous body of water — as though the Israelites (and God?) saw the universe as a giant ocean, with no concept of outer space. And then there’s the whole issue of the second creation story that suddenly begins in Genesis 2:4 with a different chronology altogether.

 

[Malifice]

Whilst the bible doesn't claim to be a scientific textbook, what science the bible has is completely correct.

****s sake, there is no Science in the Bible.

Sceintific Theory and the Scientific Method wasnt even invented till well over a millenia after it was written.

 

[Malifice]

Since your question is obviously leading to another of your trolls, I will answer by means of an example of such, such as when God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac on the alter.

What about when Jephthah burns his daughter?

At that time the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he went throughout the land of Gilead and Manasseh, including Mizpah in Gilead, and led an army against the Ammonites. And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD. He said, "If you give me victory over the Ammonites, I will give to the LORD the first thing coming out of my house to greet me when I return in triumph. I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."

"So Jephthah led his army against the Ammonites, and the LORD gave him victory. He thoroughly defeated the Ammonites from Aroer to an area near Minnith – twenty towns – and as far away as Abel-keramim. Thus Israel subdued the Ammonites. When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter – his only child – ran out to meet him, playing on a tambourine and dancing for joy. When he saw her, he tore his clothes in anguish. "My daughter!" he cried out. "My heart is breaking! What a tragedy that you came out to greet me. For I have made a vow to the LORD and cannot take it back." And she said, "Father, you have made a promise to the LORD. You must do to me what you have promised, for the LORD has given you a great victory over your enemies, the Ammonites. But first let me go up and roam in the hills and weep with my friends for two months, because I will die a virgin." "You may go," Jephthah said. And he let her go away for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never have children. When she returned home, her father kept his vow, and she died a virgin. So it has become a custom in Israel for young Israelite women to go away for four days each year to lament the fate of Jephthah's daughter."

There is also this (Josiah and Human Sacrifice):

At the LORD's command, a man of God from Judah went to Bethel, and he arrived there just as Jeroboam was approaching the altar to offer a sacrifice. Then at the LORD's command, he shouted, "O altar, altar! This is what the LORD says: A child named Josiah will be born into the dynasty of David. On you he will sacrifice the priests from the pagan shrines who come here to burn incense, and human bones will be burned on you." (1 Kings 13:1-2 NLT)

He [Josiah] executed the priests of the pagan shrines on their own altars, and he burned human bones on the altars to desecrate them. Finally, he returned to Jerusalem. King Josiah then issued this order to all the people: "You must celebrate the Passover to the LORD your God, as it is written in the Book of the Covenant." There had not been a Passover celebration like that since the time when the judges ruled in Israel, throughout all the years of the kings of Israel and Judah. This Passover was celebrated to the LORD in Jerusalem during the eighteenth year of King Josiah's reign. Josiah also exterminated the mediums and psychics, the household gods, and every other kind of idol worship, both in Jerusalem and throughout the land of Judah. He did this in obedience to all the laws written in the scroll that Hilkiah the priest had found in the LORD's Temple. Never before had there been a king like Josiah, who turned to the LORD with all his heart and soul and strength, obeying all the laws of Moses. And there has never been a king like him since. (2 Kings 23:20-25 NLT)

Also:

Child sacrifice was something that several Biblical people either did, or assisted others in doing so. Abraham was not morally repulsed by the command itself and there is no command against this practice there by God (Genesis 22). Then there is Jepthah who sacrificed his daughter because of a stupid vow (Judges 11); David (II Sam. 21:7-9); Solomon and his wives (I Kings 3:16); Ahab (I Kings 16:33-34); Ahaz (II Kings 16:2-3); Hoshea (II Kings 17:7); and Manasseh (II Kings 21:6; II Chronicles 33:6). It was a problem for King Josiah (II King 23:10), for Jeremiah (Jeremiah 7:30-31; 19:3-5; 32:35), and Ezekiel (Ezekiel 16:20-21; 20:25-26, 30-31). The prophet Micah wonders if he should sacrifice his oldest son “as a sin offering” (6:6-8). It was a practice so prevalent when offered to foreign gods, that it is named as one of the reasons God sent the Babylonians to conquer Israel and forcibly take many of them as captives (II Kings 17:16-18). We even read where the King of Moab sacrificed his son which caused the Israelites to retreat in defeat. Moab’s sacrifice created a great “wrath,” (ketzef), which was an external force to the warriors in the story, indicating that his sacrifice caused some divinity to act on behalf of Moab. (II Kings. 3:26-27). In the New Testament God the Father sacrifices his only son (Jesus) as the central redemptive act of Christianity, and God still seeks to fulfill his lust for human sacrifice by burning humans forever in the lake of fire.

And this:

“For most of biblical history, Yahweh was not against child sacrifice per se, but rather against child sacrifice to other gods.” Jon D. Levenson states that "only at a particular stage rather late in the history of Israel was child sacrifice branded as counter to the will of YHWH and thus ipso facto idolatrous." The Death and Resurrection of the Beloved Son, (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1993), p. 5. Susan Niditch, in War in the Hebrew Bible: A Study in the Ethics of Violence (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1993) says, “While there is considerable controversy about the matter, the consensus over the last decade concludes that child sacrifice was a part of ancient Israelite religion to large segments of Israelite communities of various periods.” p. 47. S. Ackerman argues that within the ancient Israelite community, “the cult of child sacrifice was felt in some circles to be a legitimate expression of Yawistic faith.” Under Every Green Tree: Popular Religion in Sixth-Century Judah (Atlanta: Scholars Press, 1992), p. 137. See also Francesca Stavrakopoulou, King Manasseh and Child Sacrifice: Biblical Distortions of Historical Realities, (Walter De Gruyter Inc., 2004).

http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.co.uk/2009/07/excerpt-from-my-book-on-child-sacrifice.html

Face it Brah. Your 'Lord' was cool with Human sacrifice. Including kids.

 

[tesseract]

"In the beginning God created ..." If you count the dates in the genealogies a figure between 6000-7000 is what you get. Even if you reject that figure, creationism requires each "kind" being created almost simultaneously. This is despite the fossil record clearly showing this to be incorrect.

The morality of the west works very well, much better than the Christian ethos it once lived by. The best countries to live in according to the UN Developmental Index include heathen states like Finland and Australia. Much better than the U.S where it's still common for the religious to try to force their version of morality on everyone else.

edit: As for the verse in Isiaih it seems the knowledge of Earth's spherical shape was lost, just like has happened many times before. The Middle and Dark Ages was very anti-intellectual, where to question meant death. It wasn't the case in the centuries before Jesus.

"In the beginning God created ..." is not saying "every animal was created almost simultaneously 6000 years ago". The dates in the genealogy have zero to do with when the animals were created. And even if each kind of animal were created almost simultaneously, that's not the same as "every animal was created almost simultaneously 6000 years ago".

Opinions as to morality are subjective. Christianity's stems from an authority, western civilizations doesn't. Western civilization seems to have taken up Luciferianism in this regard, for they've adopted: Do as thou wilt.

I doubt morality is part of the criteria when judging best countries to live according to the UN developmental index. You're really reaching by going down this path.

 

[tesseract]

****s sake, there is no Science in the Bible.

Sceintific Theory and the Scientific Method wasnt even invented till well over a millenia after it was written.

The conclusions are in the bible and they're scientifically correct. So, either God gave man advanced knowledge or man had a form of science that works.

 

[tesseract]

What about when Jephthah burns his daughter?



There is also this (Josiah and Human Sacrifice):



Also:



And this:



http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.co.uk/2009/07/excerpt-from-my-book-on-child-sacrifice.html

Face it Brah. Your 'Lord' was cool with Human sacrifice. Including kids.

You fail, Malifice. bowie cash and I were discussing the Abraham and Isaac situation when I said "yet the situation I pointed to there was no killing of any human." I never stated the bible as a whole didn't contain such.

 

[tesseract]

The bible overwhelmingly describes the Earth as flat, square and immovable. That last attempt was pathetic. Admit it.

You fail, again, Pie eyed. Have I not already stated that there are roughly 40 types of figurative language in the bible. 'Four corners of the earth', and 'ends of all the earth' is figurative; just like telling a loved one: 'I'd go to the ends of the earth for you'.

What's pathetic is that you got shown up, and now you're clutching at straws.

 

[Malifice]

The conclusions are in the bible and they're scientifically correct. So, either God gave man advanced knowledge or man had a form of science that works.

The Bible has a ton of 'conclusions' and none of them are Scientific.

Some of them are correct. Some of them are blatantly false.

You fail, Malifice. bowie cash and I were discussing the Abraham and Isaac situation when I said "yet the situation I pointed to there was no killing of any human." I never stated the bible as a whole didn't contain such.

So you agree, that for a while there your God was totally cool with Child Sacrifice.

Cool.

 

[Malifice]

You fail, again, Pie eyed. Have I not already stated that there are roughly 40 types of figurative language in the bible. 'Four corners of the earth', and 'ends of all the earth' is figurative; just like telling a loved one: 'I'd go to the ends of the earth for you'.

What's pathetic is that you got shown up, and now you're clutching at straws.

Four corners of the earth is figurative, yet you stretch the Aramaic word for circle into in meaning sphere.

Despite scholars for centuries claiming it meant... circle.

I still dont understand why you cling to parts of the OT, yet happily disregard other bits.

Slavery and Sacrifice are now evil, but you still cant be Gay.

Go figure.

 

[tesseract]

The Bible has a ton of 'conclusions' and none of them are Scientific.

Some of them are correct. Some of them are blatantly false.



So you agree, that for a while there your God was totally cool with Child Sacrifice.

Cool.

So, scientifically correct conclusions were happened upon without science? Perhaps God gave mankind a leg-up.

Nowhere did I agree that God was cool with child sacrifice, so don't be putting words in my mouth. Did I not mention earlier in this thread how Satan is the ruler over things on earth for a time, and how all the badness that occurs is on his watch?

 

[tesseract]

Four corners of the earth is figurative, yet you stretch the Aramaic word for circle into in meaning sphere.

Despite scholars for centuries claiming it meant... circle.

I still dont understand why you cling to parts of the OT, yet happily disregard other bits.

Slavery and Sacrifice are now evil, but you still cant be Gay.

Go figure.

I stretched nothing. Circle, in this context , means sphere or orb.

Until I say that I disregard this or that, don't speak for me.

Your last comment on slavery, sacrifice and homosexuality shows you don't understand the main premise of the bible and it's involvement in these issues.

 

[Malifice]

So, scientifically correct conclusions were happened upon without science?

Yes, they frequently did.

The ancient Greeks (who predated your Bible) stumbled upon a number of theories that we now know to be true.

They didn't use Science either.

Neither did the Mayans or Incas, and their knowledge of the Solar system was pretty freakishly accurate.

Tell me, is this proof of Quetzalcoatl's divinity?

Nowhere did I agree that God was cool with child sacrifice, so don't be putting words in my mouth. Did I not mention earlier in this thread how Satan is the ruler over things on earth for a time, and how all the badness that occurs is on his watch?

In the passages I provided above, the LORD clearly condoned (and ordered) human sacrifice, and was pleased when it occurred!

Please 'interpret' that away for me.

 

[FIGJAM]

God exists.

God is the unlimited, unconditioned, 'aphysical' super-system and you are a co-existing, conditioned sub-system learning, and evolving, within it.

The super-system is always with you, whether you choose to see it or not. It is there. Always. It is inexplicably magnificent!

The capacity to make error is the greatest gift you could ever know.

May the Christ (Vishnu/Chokmah) Consciousness find you this Christ Mass. We need to evolve collectively. Peace be upon you.

 

[tb_fanboy]

****s sake, there is no Science in the Bible.

Sceintific Theory and the Scientific Method wasnt even invented till well over a millenia after it was written.

1 Corinthians 15: 41

The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor

as far as I know it was popular belief in that time that all star were the same and that they were also countable to humans.