Discussion on SEN: Pokie revenue

[tribey]

Very incorrect.

You're not one of these "it's a disease" apologists are you?

 

[Peck]

You're not one of these "it's a disease" apologists are you?

I just don't believe pokies something that people can handle unless they are very educated on what pokies are, and even then people would get addicted. Its essentially machine that trains you to keep using it.

Addictions persist because your brain tells you that you *need* more of that substance, or activity. Similar to telling you that you need more food or sex. I'm not highly informed about it so I can't describe it much better than that unfortunately, I could be overstating it a little but I cbf looking it up (sorry).

I do agree that anyone who gets addicted to pokies, drugs, or alcohol has made bad decisions, and I'd probably describe them as an idiot. However, 90% of people are idiots. I was an idiot yesterday, and I'll probably think the present me was an idiot tomorrow. Some people are really selfish or low IQ, but most idiots are just coming from different experience.

It takes a bad decision to end up addicted to something, but think of the worst decisions you've made and they are probably tied to being depressed, scared, or on some kind of high. E.g I can remember saying some pretty stupid things to my first ex after she dumped me a few years ago, but I was literally bat-shit insane for a week or so there. As they say "Its easy to get the right answer while watching at home".

Sorry for getting a bit ranty there, and honestly I'm not even sure what you mean by "it's a disease apologist". I just believe that everyone makes mistakes, and they are quite often just that. If you try and **** someone else over and it comes back on you, then I'd enjoy it, but people who just panic or are misinformed don't really deserve bad karma.

 

[StrappingTape]

I wonder if you wowsers get so uppity about betting on the horses, the tennis, the cricket or the football? Do you stand at the betting agency at the Port games wishing it wasn't there and shaking your head at the thousands making a personal choice to wager a little of the hard earned on the outcome?

I'll put it into Dobie G terms.

You let people bet at the football, therefore you are letting the betting agency break up families.

 

[Peck]

I wonder if you wowsers get so uppity about betting on the horses, the tennis, the cricket or the football? Do you stand at the betting agency at the Port games wishing it wasn't there and shaking your head at the thousands making a personal choice to wager a little of the hard earned on the outcome?

I'll put it into Dobie G terms.

You let people bet at the football, therefore you are letting the betting agency break up families.

I let you drink alcohol therefore I'm fine with crack being sold on the streets.

That is basically what you just said.

 

[StrappingTape]

I just don't believe pokies something that people can handle unless they are very educated on what pokies are, and even then people would get addicted. Its essentially machine that trains you to keep using it.

Sorry for getting a bit ranty there, and honestly I'm not even sure what you mean by "it's a disease apologist". I just believe that everyone makes mistakes, and they are quite often just that. If you try and **** someone else over and it comes back on you, then I'd enjoy it, but people who just panic or are misinformed don't really deserve bad karma.

Ah so people are too stupid to realise what they are doing with a pokie machine, therefore it wasn't their fault. You then end your rant by saying it's the individuals fault because they made a mistake..

Say I lose 10k on the stock market tomorrow on open, do I blame the government for not having enough controls to stop me losing my money? Do I blame the broker for letting me put my purchase order in? Do I blame the bank for letting the money go through? It can't possibly be my fault.

 

[StrappingTape]

I let you drink alcohol therefore I'm fine with crack being sold on the streets.

That is basically what you just said.

*straight over your head*

 

[raman]

Sorry for getting a bit ranty there, and honestly I'm not even sure what you mean by "it's a disease apologist".

It means that there is a prevailing attitude that addiction is a disease in the same sense that colon cancer is a disease.

This attitude is at best disrespectful to those who actually have real diseases, and at worst it makes addiction a more powerful concept than it actually is, by allowing/convincing addicts to believe they have no control over their situation.

 

[StrappingTape]

It allows people to not take ownership of their problems ie "it's not my fault, I've got a disease"

 

[RonSon]

I lost a lot of money by bad investing with a conman. I would like to blame him but I went in with eyes wide open looking at big dollars. When it all collapsed and I had done $100k the only one to blame was me.I knew the risks.Even he told me not to invest but I was looking for the big payday. Blaming someone else and blaming poker machines for someone elses mistakes is a big cop out.
Problem is with the individual and nobody else.

That isn't an addiction.

 

[raman]

That isn't an addiction.

He didn't say it was.

 

[RonSon]

He didn't say it was.

Oh sorry in this thread about betting and addiction I thought that was what he was relating it to.

My bad.

 

[Dobie G]

I lost a lot of money by bad investing with a conman. I would like to blame him but I went in with eyes wide open looking at big dollars. When it all collapsed and I had done $100k the only one to blame was me.I knew the risks.Even he told me not to invest but I was looking for the big payday. Blaming someone else and blaming poker machines for someone elses mistakes is a big cop out.
Problem is with the individual and nobody else.

In your case then it is your fault if you went against the advice. I know plenty of people who followed bad advice given, lost big time and there was no repercussion at all for the adviser who still made good money regardless of how the investment went. I think investment advisers should get a commission of the profit, say 5-10% and no profit no commission or fees, that's my pipe-dream in fairyland.
Everyone is not homogeneous, different logic, different dispositions, different IQ's etc and some people are easily led by con men, how many stories have we heard about scams from Nigeria and some people still fall for it? The problem with pokies is well documented throughout this thread, no point in rehashing the points again. Suffice to say, it's very simplistic to put it down to an individual's free choice which is not the whole story and that let's the government off the hook way too easily.

 

[Killer Power]

Say I lose 10k on the stock market tomorrow on open, do I blame the government for not having enough controls to stop me losing my money? Do I blame the broker for letting me put my purchase order in? Do I blame the bank for letting the money go through? It can't possibly be my fault.

This is like saying if i go into business and lose money isn't that the same as losing money on the pokies. No. There is a difference between investing and gambling. And there is a difference between different gambling forms. No amount of analysis, experience, tactics or strategy can make you more successful on the pokies. Ten percent of all money gambled will be lost. Guaranteed.

 

[Killer Power]

I wonder if you wowsers get so uppity about betting on the horses, the tennis, the cricket or the football? Do you stand at the betting agency at the Port games wishing it wasn't there and shaking your head at the thousands making a personal choice to wager a little of the hard earned on the outcome?

I'll put it into Dobie G terms.

You let people bet at the football, therefore you are letting the betting agency break up families.

No, i dont. And i dont consider myself a wowser. I gamble occasionally in these forms myself. My argument is to the reasons a government would conciously introduce a form of gambling known to be more damaging than any other. For whose benefit? And then why subsequently do so very little to limit those impacts? The cynic in me has some strong views why.

 

[Peck]

It allows people to not take ownership of their problems ie "it's not my fault, I've got a disease"

If they want to keep that disease then thats the attitude to take. The correct response is "I've got a disease I'd better work my arse off to get rid of it".

Just because people react to the truth in a dumb way doesn't mean it isn't the truth. Its possible the universe is completely 100% deterministic and we have absolutely no free will, but that doesn't mean you should go around murdering innocent babies while saying "its not my fault, the universe made me do it".

 

[Moo87]

After reading this I gather that there is a fair few people with a poor idea of what addiction actually means.

In very basic terms, addiction can lead to structural and chemical changes within the brain mostly regarding the release of dopamine in relation to the "positive" stimuli. For those who aren't sure what dopamine is, it gives a similar feeling to say, a Port premiership.


Does this mean that people with addiction don't have a choice? Of course not! They can certainly resist it, and many do. But similarly someone with a broken leg can still choose to walk on it... it's just not a level playing field. In regards to whether giving "addiction" any credibility to being an illness - it can certainly help people understand and overcome it if they understand the pathophysiology behind what they are feeling. It certainly doesn't offer any excuses if explained properly, and isn't a "cop out", as many obviously have a degree of poor choices involved.

The reasons pokies are different to other scenarios is that we have good evidence to suggest that it primarily affects lower socio-economic groups, as Ford Fairlane pointed out (who then rely on needing "a big win" to get back to a reasonable financial position), and there is also good evidence (to the contrary of what is suggested here), that eliminating them WILL help with dollars lost to gambling, and, importantly, to stop future generations from becoming addicted in the first place. To say that it is their own fault or anything similar implies that the choice to say no to this is a level playing field, when all the evidence suggests that this is far from the truth.

 

[Dobie G]

I'll put it into Dobie G terms.

You let people bet at the football, therefore you are letting the betting agency break up families.

I wouldn't say that, generally people are responsible for their own actions.


Pokies are in a separate class of their own, their social cost is well documented. The government won’t do anything worthwhile against Pokies, the money’s too easy.

Source

Research by University of Adelaide gambling expert Associate Professor Paul Delfabbro found three-quarters of problem gamblers used poker machines.
Women were found to be extremely vulnerable, with nine out of 10 problem female gamblers indentifying poker machines as the cause of their problem.
Anti-gambling campaigner Reverend Tim Costello said about 40 per cent of poker machine revenue came from addicts.
“The social costs are high, including relationship breakdown, mental health issues, unemployment, debt, financial hardship, theft and other crime, social isolation and all too often suicide,’’ he said.
“Money spent on the pokies is money taken from too many local economies. The ripple effects cause job losses and community breakdown.’’
According to the federal government up to 500,000 Australians are at risk of becoming or are already problem gamblers.
Research conducted by the Productivity Commission in 2010 found one in six people who played pokies had a serious addiction.
Problem gamblers lose on average about $21,000 a year, or one-third of the average salary.

More

 

[Dalphonso]

In your case then it is your fault if you went against the advice. I know plenty of people who followed bad advice given, lost big time and there was no repercussion at all for the adviser who still made good money regardless of how the investment went. I think investment advisers should get a commission of the profit, say 5-10% and no profit no commission or fees, that's my pipe-dream in fairyland.
Everyone is not homogeneous, different logic, different dispositions, different IQ's etc and some people are easily led by con men, how many stories have we heard about scams from Nigeria and some people still fall for it? The problem with pokies is well documented throughout this thread, no point in rehashing the points again. Suffice to say, it's very simplistic to put it down to an individual's free choice which is not the whole story and that let's the government off the hook way too easily.

It is entirely my fault.
So is doing my Weeks wages on the pokies.No one dragged me into the gaming venue and held a gun to my head and forced my money in the slots. I got greedy just like poker players.
Did you know the poorest areas in cities are the biggest poker players? They all want that big pay day and want to get out of the shit.Greed is not an addiction.

 

[Dobie G]

It is entirely my fault.
So is doing my Weeks wages on the pokies.No one dragged me into the gaming venue and held a gun to my head and forced my money in the slots. I got greedy just like poker players.
Did you know the poorest areas in cities are the biggest poker players? They all want that big pay day and want to get out of the shit.Greed is not an addiction.

Respectfully, you are completely missing the point on Pokies.

 

[Dalphonso]

This is a discussion no one can ever win with.A bit like a poker machine actually.

 

[Killer Power]

This is a discussion no one can ever win with.A bit like a poker machine actually.

Can't win it no. But if you could please take the time to do even a little research you wouldn't be so flippant as to suggest that pokie use is driven by greed, or that there is no difference between investing and gambling, or assert that choice is a black and white concept with no mitigating factors.

 

[Hartletts Heroes]

I have found as a very casual pokie player ( i may play them 2-3 times a month) that i only tend to win money back on the more expensive machines.. Think its called shogun or art of shogun? Anyway there's 2 machines at the club 1 of them is a 20 cent one which if you are like me you play 5 lines so thats a $1 a push. Or theres the other shogun one which cost $1 per line and has 3 lines so thats $3 a push. Basically the only way to even break even playing these machines is to get the 3 horseman which gives you 25 free games where the prizes are tripled. I won $548 just recently on the free spins about a week ago. That doesnt happen often though as i usually get around $130 or so on the free spins ($3 shogun machine)

 

[wharfietilidie]

Pokies are different to sports betting because it is a machine made after a close study of the human brain that taps into the most addictive reward patterns known to man - small, unpredictable monetary rewards followed by the very rare big win, meanwhile you don't realize you are steadily losing tons of money in the process. On a different point I think the copious amounts of online sports betting ads at footy games is conditioning a younger generation to not be able to watch sport without a wager on it. Problem gambling is hard enough to control when there is a tab within a 10 km radius of your house open 9-5, let alone in your pocket 24/7.

 

[Concussion]

I have found as a very casual pokie player ( i may play them 2-3 times a month) that i only tend to win money back on the more expensive machines.. Think its called shogun or art of shogun? Anyway there's 2 machines at the club 1 of them is a 20 cent one which if you are like me you play 5 lines so thats a $1 a push. Or theres the other shogun one which cost $1 per line and has 3 lines so thats $3 a push. Basically the only way to even break even playing these machines is to get the 3 horseman which gives you 25 free games where the prizes are tripled. I won $548 just recently on the free spins about a week ago. That doesnt happen often though as i usually get around $130 or so on the free spins ($3 shogun machine)

Easily one of the top 5 worst posts on big footy. Good luck with your illness.

 

[Ford Fairlane]

According to Productivity Commission estimates, pokie players account for 75-80% of problem gamblers.

Problem gamblers account for less than 1% of the population but account for around 40% of gambling losses.