Alastair Clarkson - The Age 12.11.05

[Hawkk]

This was written before the Grand Final...

The Buzz: Alastair Clarkson on brink of becoming Hawthorn’s best coach and all-time coaching great

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...e-coaching-great/story-fnp04d70-1227068069182

Clarkson is the first and so far only Hawthorn coach to guide us to back 2 back premierships (which is amazing considering we've won 25% of all silverware over a 50 year period). In my mind he is without question our greatest coach ...better than Kennedy and Jeans

 

[Flukey!]

In my mind he is without question our greatest coach ...better than Kennedy and Jeans

A couple of things:
I think we always seem to judge current day coaches/players as better than past coaches/players because their performances are front of mind. We see them perform every week.

Jeans deserves to be revered as a club great, and only missed having B2B due to ill health.

The thing that Clarko has brought to the club is innovation which in my mind is what has contributed greatly to the success. Add supreme list management, good support staff etc etc.

Kennedy was known for his ruthlessness and Jeans had extraordinary talent at his disposal.

Different people from different eras doing the best with what they had at their disposal.
In my mind they are equals.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Pound for Pound I think he has grounds to be considered our greatest ever coach already (and #12 in VFL/AFL history).

By my rough calculation 15 coaches have won 3 or more VFL/AFL flags...

McHale won 7 VFL flags in 38 years (achieving his 3rd success after his 16th season)
Smith won 6 VFL flags in 22 years (achieving his 3rd success after his 9th season)
Worrell won 5 VFL flags in 18 years (achieving his 3rd success after his 8th season)
Hughes won 5 VFL flags in 20 years (achieving his 3rd success after his 13th season)
Hafey won 5 VFL flags in 23 years (achieving his 3rd success after his 8th season)
Matthews won 4 AFL flags in 17 years (achieving his 3rd success after his 13th season)
Parkin won 3 VFL / 1 AFL flag in 22 years (achieving his 3rd success after his 8th season)
Reynolds won 4 VFL flags in 22 years (achieving his 3rd success after his 11th season)
Barrassi won 4 VFL flags in 23 years (achieving his 3rd success after his 11th season)
Jeans won 4 VFL flags in 25 years (achieving his 3rd success after his 22nd season)
Sheedy won 2 VFL / 2 AFL flags in 29 years (achieving his 3rd success after his 12th season)
Clarkson has won 3 AFL flags in 10 years (achieving his 3rd success after his 10th season)
Kennedy won 3 VFL flags in 19 years (achieving his 3rd success after his 14th season)
Hickey won 3 VFL flags in 28 years (achieving his 3rd success after his 21st season)
Mathouse has won 3 AFL flags in 28 years (achieving his 3rd success after his 23rd season)


Pound for pound Clarkson ranks 5th of all time with respect to seasons taken to become a triple premiership coach...

Parkin reached it after 8 seasons (1 with Hawthorn, 2 with Carlton)
Worrell reached it after 8 seasons (hat trick with Carlton)
Hafey reached it after 8 seasons (3 with Richmond)
Smith reached it after 9 seasons (hat trick with Melbourne)
Clarkson reached it after 10 seasons (3 with Hawthorn)

If Clarkson salutes next year he will easily rank amongst the top 5 coaches in VFL / AFL history. In terms of AFL history, he ranks #2...

Matthews - 4 flags in 13 seasons
Clarkson - 3 flags in 10 seasons
Malthouse - 3 flags in 25 seasons
Blight - 2 flags in 8 seasons
Thompson - 2 flags in 11 seasons
Pagan - 2 flags in 15 seasons

Whilst Clarkson has age on his side it should be noted that most coaches win flags early in their coaching careers...

I'm not sure the about the Greatest ever Hawkk....His current record & standing is more an argument for him being placed within the confines of the same conversation as Kennedy Snr & Jeans.

Clarko has had 5 Elite seasons in his 10 year tenure compared with Jeans 7 elite seasons within his 9 seasons & Kennedy's 6 in his 14 years.....Also, if not for his aneurism, we'd likely be talking about Jeans as a 5 time Premiership coach over a 12 year stint.

The current state of our list also owes much to Wrighty's genius over the past 5 seasons of securing ready made senior players in recognizing the weakness of those drafts with the concessions awarded to both the Gold Coast & G.W.S.

There is also the contingency of having Hodge & Mitchell already on the list for which he cannot be credited for....Such happy circumstances as these cannot be legislated for in accounting for a successful career.

As it currently stands, Clarko sits on the precipice of becoming our greatest ever coach if he can secure for us another Premiership or 2 in the next 5 seasons....The platform is now in place where he has all the pre-requisite tools necessary, in order for him to achieve that feat.

However, let us not count our chickens before they hatch!

 

[play2win]

^i agree with a lot of the sentiment in your post....however, there is a difference between what clarko started with compared to what jeans started with. you could argue that we were almost at rock bottom. yes we had hodge and mitchell but they were far from being the stars they are today. whilst jeans inherited players of the ilk such as matthews, tuck, scott, knights etc. he entered a club that had been through a period of success and many star/experienced players remained.
never in the history of the afl has a coach taken a club from rock bottom to premiers within a 4 year period. and then in the next 4 years built the foundations of a club and playing list that looks like being able to contend for another 5 years (and is now winning flags).

 

[Agent Smith]

A truly great coach is one who can build a list and get the most of the players over a sustained period. Kennedy is renowned for doing the hard yards first up - turning a rabble, a laughing stock into a formidable force. He then rebuilt the list in the 70s with some great players coming in. Jeans inherited a reasonable list in the 80s but turned them into a super power that lasted almost an entire decade. Clarkson took over a list that was poor and going nowhere and turned it into something special very quickly. Yes, he inherited players of the ilk of Hodge and Mitchell, then Buddy and Roughie fell into his lap, but the very fact he could take the team to a premiership and then rebuild the team to back-to-back is extraordinary.

All three are exceptional in what they've achieved, the difference being Clarko still has the opportunity to write more history. Considering he's the hardest working coach currently in the business, it's no surprise he finds himself the 'luckiest' as well (actually, that's not surprising at all, is it).

 

[Procrastinator35]

^i agree with a lot of the sentiment in your post....however, there is a difference between what clarko started with compared to what jeans started with. you could argue that we were almost at rock bottom. yes we had hodge and mitchell but they were far from being the stars they are today. whilst jeans inherited players of the ilk such as matthews, tuck, scott, knights etc. he entered a club that had been through a period of success and many star/experienced players remained.
never in the history of the afl has a coach taken a club from rock bottom to premiers within a 4 year period. and then in the next 4 years built the foundations of a club and playing list that looks like being able to contend for another 5 years (and is now winning flags).

Yep....I appreciate what you are saying here & my comments are in no way an attempt to belittle nor diminish Clarko's achievements.

My point rather was in contending the claim that he has earnt the mantle of our greatest coach ever on current standings alone....I.E historical perspective.

John Kennedy Snr dragged this this club up by it's shirt-tails from a perennial easy-beat & cellar-dweller into a respectable & tough opposition....When he first arrived in 1950 we did not win a single game & had secured for ourselves our 10th wooden spoon in 26 years of football....Unlike clarko, Kennedy was not the beneficiary of Draft concessions in order to build his squad from the best kids available in the land. Clarko also facilitated the arrival of other top draft talent by trading away our top end mature talent barr Crawford. Kennedy also had no precedent of club accomplishments upon which to point towards nor draw from as inspiration....In other words, Kennedy transformed the entire culture of our team & club from one of Losers to one of winners!...It is my contention that without him, our club would be in much the same predicament today as Footscray or St.kilda, or worst yet, not even exist at all!

Also, Jeans/Joyce record of 8 Grand finals in 9 seasons of football will take some beating indeed....Regardless of the dearth of champions he had at his disposal. To maintain the level of hunger necessary in order to play in so many Grand finals is a phenomenal coaching achievement!...To say that on the back of his Back to Back flags following his 2008 Triumph that Clarko has somehow transcended both Jeans & Kennedy as our best coach ever is a fundamentally naïve perspective in my opinion. Especially when taking into account all of our history & accomplishments as a club prior to his arrival!

That said however, another flag or 2 in the foreseeable future should render such debates as these as obsolete....With our current squad, there is no reason why he cannot....But even then, I'd probably still stump for Kennedy Snr on the back of aforementioned reasons alone!

 

[Hawkk]

Yep....I appreciate what you are saying here & my comments are in no way an attempt to belittle nor diminish Clarko's achievements.

My point rather was in contending the claim that he has earnt the mantle of our greatest coach ever on current standings alone....I.E historical perspective.

John Kennedy Snr dragged this this club up by it's shirt-tails from a perennial easy-beat & cellar-dweller into a respectable & tough opposition....When he first arrived in 1950 we did not win a single game & had secured for ourselves our 10th wooden spoon in 26 years of football....Unlike clarko, Kennedy was not the beneficiary of Draft concessions in order to build his squad from the best kids available in the land. Clarko also facilitated the arrival of other top draft talent by trading away our top end mature talent barr Crawford. Kennedy also had no precedent of club accomplishments upon which to point towards nor draw from as inspiration....In other words, Kennedy transformed the entire culture of our team & club from one of Losers to one of winners!...It is my contention that without him, our club would be in much the same predicament today as Footscray or St.kilda, or worst yet, not even exist at all!

Also, Jeans/Joyce record of 8 Grand finals in 9 seasons of football will take some beating indeed....Regardless of the dearth of champions he had at his disposal. To maintain the level of hunger necessary in order to play in so many Grand finals is a phenomenal coaching achievement!...To say that on the back of his Back to Back flags following his 2008 Triumph that Clarko has somehow transcended both Jeans & Kennedy as our best coach ever is a fundamentally naïve perspective in my opinion. Especially when taking into account all of our history & accomplishments as a club prior to his arrival!

That said however, another flag or 2 in the foreseeable future should render such debates as these as obsolete....With our current squad, there is no reason why he cannot....But even then, I'd probably still stump for Kennedy Snr on the back of aforementioned reasons alone!

As always this is an excellent post and I can't really debate any particular...

With respect to Clarkson and his record to date, he averages 78 games per premiership

...as a triple premiership coach that record is phenomenal and ranks him amongst the top 5 / 6 coaches of all time for flags to games conversion...

In an age of (almost) absolute equalisation where the competition, salary cap, draw, draft etc is geared towards every club winning a flag every 15-20 years, Clarkson stands without pear in the modern era (and could be regarded with the same esteem as Smith, McHale and Worrell)

...and that doesn't take anything away from the Hawthorn coaching immortals (Kennedy, Jeans and Parkin - albeit a departure to Carlton)

 

[heh]

I just love that we have a collection of great coaches to debate

 

[wahawk]

3 different coaches

3 totally different eras

3 unique men

1 great club

Personally, would never say any 1 was better than another

 

[MightyHawks]

Yep....I appreciate what you are saying here & my comments are in no way an attempt to belittle nor diminish Clarko's achievements.

My point rather was in contending the claim that he has earnt the mantle of our greatest coach ever on current standings alone....I.E historical perspective.

John Kennedy Snr dragged this this club up by it's shirt-tails from a perennial easy-beat & cellar-dweller into a respectable & tough opposition....When he first arrived in 1950 we did not win a single game & had secured for ourselves our 10th wooden spoon in 26 years of football....Unlike clarko, Kennedy was not the beneficiary of Draft concessions in order to build his squad from the best kids available in the land. Clarko also facilitated the arrival of other top draft talent by trading away our top end mature talent barr Crawford. Kennedy also had no precedent of club accomplishments upon which to point towards nor draw from as inspiration....In other words, Kennedy transformed the entire culture of our team & club from one of Losers to one of winners!...It is my contention that without him, our club would be in much the same predicament today as Footscray or St.kilda, or worst yet, not even exist at all!

Also, Jeans/Joyce record of 8 Grand finals in 9 seasons of football will take some beating indeed....Regardless of the dearth of champions he had at his disposal. To maintain the level of hunger necessary in order to play in so many Grand finals is a phenomenal coaching achievement!...To say that on the back of his Back to Back flags following his 2008 Triumph that Clarko has somehow transcended both Jeans & Kennedy as our best coach ever is a fundamentally naïve perspective in my opinion. Especially when taking into account all of our history & accomplishments as a club prior to his arrival!

That said however, another flag or 2 in the foreseeable future should render such debates as these as obsolete....With our current squad, there is no reason why he cannot....But even then, I'd probably still stump for Kennedy Snr on the back of aforementioned reasons alone!

While I agree that Kennedy turned the club from perpetual losers to the most successful club in the competition, and that Jeansy's record in the 80s was unbelievable, I tend to have Clarko a nose in front already ahead of these two

The difficulty in winning flags has risen, more clubs - harder to win when there's 16-18 clubs rather than 12-14, interstate clubs, salary cap & draft make it harder to stay successful. The innovation and constant tactical development required to stay ahead of the pack is much harder now than it has ever been. In the 1980s we weren't getting punished for our success by being given harder fixturing every year - the fixture is weighted and Clarko's Hawks have been top weight the last 2 years for sure

If you need any convincing that flags are getting harder to win and sustained success even more challenging have a look at the multiple premiership coaches, everyone with 5+ won them all before 1965...

 

[play2win]

There is no doubt that clarko has learnt from his predecessors, which makes it so much more difficult to compare coaches from different eras (amongst other reasons). Personally I don't have an opinion as to who is the greatest ever coach at hawthorn, I just view each of these great coaches as being the best of their respective eras, which imo is the highest accolade each of them could ever attain.

 

[tommyk72]

I also think the environment that we have at hawthorn today can't be discounted. While we are thankful to Don Scott and the anti-merged gang, the environment, expectations, and self belief are all built on a foundation that both Kennedy and jeans contributed to.

 

[mustang]

As it now stands he win's a flag ever 77 games after the 2014 flag if we win in 2015 it will be every 64 games

 

[Agent Smith]

While I agree that Kennedy turned the club from perpetual losers to the most successful club in the competition, and that Jeansy's record in the 80s was unbelievable, I tend to have Clarko a nose in front already ahead of these two

The difficulty in winning flags has risen, more clubs - harder to win when there's 16-18 clubs rather than 12-14, interstate clubs, salary cap & draft make it harder to stay successful. The innovation and constant tactical development required to stay ahead of the pack is much harder now than it has ever been. In the 1980s we weren't getting punished for our success by being given harder fixturing every year - the fixture is weighted and Clarko's Hawks have been top weight the last 2 years for sure

If you need any convincing that flags are getting harder to win and sustained success even more challenging have a look at the multiple premiership coaches, everyone with 5+ won them all before 1965...

Very true, though in 1960 there were no attempts at equalisation, higher draft picks for lower ranked clubs, or salary caps to keep the richer clubs in check. Instead it was dog-eat-dog, so the problem was why should anyone who was any good play for a cellar-dweller like Hawthorn when they could be paid ten times as much at a big club where fortune and glory beckoned? Make no mistake, Kanga didn't get gifted a Roughead or a Buddy because Hawthorn was at the bottom of the ladder. He had to turn around the culture of the club's entire existence and actually teach the team how to win. Actually, that gives no credence to Hale, his predecessor who had started the ball rolling, but still Kanga somehow turned that motley crew into a premiership team. Not a bad effort if I do say so myself, and not one that should be underestimated. If anyone was wondering, that's how he gets himself a statue.

That all being said, I'm struggling to determine who is/was our 'best' coach. They all had different obstacles in front of them, and thankfully they all overcame them to become elite coaches in their own right.

 

[mustang]

All we can hope for is that state of origin returns one day and Clarko is the big V coach

 

[MrFujiMoto]

It is hard to rate these three against each other as actual coaches. The environments are too different. No equalization, no draft handicaps etc etc when Kennedy was coach but he and Jeans did 90% of the coaching, recruitment and plenty more themselves. They also held down jobs after hours. Now we have a whole heap of equalization measures, draft handicapping and the inherent corruption that comes with professional sport but Clarko has 5 assistants, recruiting teams and a whole host of other support to get the job done.

None of this makes any of the 3 of them less or more than the others, it just makes them different. Because of that you can probably only judge them on the legacy they have left at the club and that is hard in Clarko's case because his is still being built. Currently I would say -

Kennedy Snr a bees whisker in front of Jeans who is a bees whisker in front of Clarko. Snr built the foundations that allowed Clarko and Jeans to operate. Without him we could easily, very easily, be in the same boat as the Saints or Bulldogs.

 

[Hawkk]

Sorry for bringing the round game into the equation but Kennedy - Parkin - Jeans - Joyce - Clarkson is a bit like Liverpool's Shankly - Paisley - Fagan - Daglish...

Jeans aside all Hawthorn premiership coaches have been embedded with Kennedy's ideology (although Kennedy and Jeans were life long friends with Kennedy instrumental in Jeans landing at Hawthorn)...

Kennedy is the godfather of the Glenferrie Oval boot room...

 

[Rushed_Behind]

If anyone hasn't read Clarko's article from Hawk Talk do it. He mentions Kennedy(kanga) in it, and enforces the fact the club still functions on the ethos he embedded in our culture.

Like others have said 3 great men, 3 great coaches 1 proud club.

We owe a lot to these greats but one made it possible for us to have this conversation by planting the seed to turn a rabble into a powerhouse.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Sorry for bringing the round game into the equation but Kennedy - Parkin - Jeans - Joyce - Clarkson is a bit like Liverpool's Shankly - Paisley - Fagan - Daglish...

Jeans aside all Hawthorn premiership coaches have been embedded with Kennedy's ideology (although Kennedy and Jeans were life long friends with Kennedy instrumental in Jeans landing at Hawthorn)...

Kennedy is the godfather of the Glenferrie Oval boot room...

Yeah....Noice sentiments there Hawkk....But speaking for myself, I'd like to see young Al create a dynasty, in the mould of a certain Sir Alex Ferguson.

Screw that Scouse Shite!...They're second best & second rate at best mate!

 

[BOP66]

3 different coaches

3 totally different eras

3 unique men

1 great club

Personally, would never say any 1 was better than another

Summed up perfectly mate!

 

[Agent Smith]

Like others have said 3 great men, 3 great coaches 1 proud club.

Or dare I say at this time of year... 3 wise men?

They offer gifts of gold, commonsense, and myrrh flags still to come.

 

[seysearles]

Or dare I say at this time of year... 3 wise men?

They offer gifts of gold, commonsense, and myrrh flags still to come.