Mega Thread Hot Topic - Drugs and AFL

[RussellEbertHandball]

The Joint ACC - ASADA report - ie Project Aperio is rhe starting point for all this. The information collected there - where the ACC used coercive powers they have - will be part of all evidence submitted in the interiem report as well as the evidence to the AFL Tribunal.

ASADA are not going to say - we will ignore the evidnce we spent 12 months collecting with the ACC in 2012.

 

[raptalia]

The Joint ACC - ASADA report - ie Project Aperio is rhe starting point for all this. The information collected there - where the ACC used coercive powers they have - will be part of all evidence submitted in the interiem report as well as the evidence to the AFL Tribunal.

ASADA are not going to say - we will ignore the evidnce we spent 12 months collecting with the ACC in 2012.

Project Aperio there is a real laugh. As I posted previously if all that this intensive operation is able to dredge up is a few NRL and AFL footballers we should all be asking questions. From the ACC web page,

Project Aperio was established by the Australian Crime Commission in February 2012 to develop a deeper understanding of the use of performance and image enhancing drugs, including the nature, extent and resulting harms of the involvement of organised crime in this market.
Project Aperio, supported by the Australian Sports Anti-Doping Authority and the Therapeutic Goods Administration, examined four key issues:

• the availability of new generation PIEDs, which were previously considered to be only used by elite athletes

• the involvement of organised criminal identities and groups in the distribution of new generation performance and image enhancing drugs

• the use of World Anti-Doping Agency prohibited substances by professional athletes in Australia

• current threats to the integrity of professional sport in Australia

The ACC and ASADA have probably nailed the last two points but most people would believe that dot point two is the one that the Blackest Day in Australian Sport was really all about. The AFL had been testing for PEDs since 2008 well before Aperio and Essendon requested an AFL/ ASADA investigation into possible breaches prior to the release of the ACC Report. Maybe Essendon were tipped off but it is drawing a long bow to assume that the ACC Investigations and subsequent Report was the instigator of the investigation into Essendon. I cannot find any reports that the ACC was even involved in investigating Essendon. If you have a link to ACC involvement with Essendon players please post it as I would be interested.

In the link below Demetriou takes pains to repudiate that the ACC Report instigated the probe into Essendon.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...vestigation-into-essendon-20130207-2e0cu.html

The link below is interesting because it lists the drugs that have been linked to people associated with the Essendon Football Club. What is interesting is the murky status of some of these drugs. There are times when the reader has to be unsure if ASADA knew their exact status back in 2012. In fact the ACC Report got the banned status of AOD-9604 wrong.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...he-investigation/story-fni5f6kv-1226636116131

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

where do you reckon copies of all those text messages, emails, convesations etc between Dank, Charters, Alavi, Doctor Ageless, Hird, Corcoran, the Melbourne doctor, players etc came from??

Its because the ACC has the legal power to access all those telecommunications records. Do you reckon ASADA and the AFL can access them? If so can you tell me the sections of which Acts give them that legal right??

 

[raptalia]

where do you reckon copies of all those text messages, emails, convesations etc between Dank, Charters, Alavi, Doctor Ageless, Hird, Corcoran, the Melbourne doctor, players etc came from??

Its because the ACC has the legal power to access all those telecommunications records. Do you reckon ASADA and the AFL can access them? If so can you tell me the sections of which Acts give them that legal right??

I am not saying that the ACC and ASADA did not share information but that is not the same as the ACC conducting an investigation into Essendon players. It is a closed hearing so we do not know who has said what and we do not even know who has given evidence and what that evidence is but I have not heard any reports of ACC investigators fronting the Tribunal. The interesting thing about ASADA and legal rights is they appear to ignore the legal rights of others in their investigations yet seek to use the Courts when it suits them. ASADA were given clear advice that they would fail in their Victorian Supreme Court action to force Charter and Alvi to appear at an AFL Tribunal yet they went ahead and wasted taxpayer money. To some that Court action might indicate tenacity and dedication to a cause but to me it indicates desperation.

I am not the only person questioning the strength of the ASADA case. The links below make interesting reading. I am not a lawyer but a couple of people who are also question the strength of the ASADA case. If the Essendon players are guilty so be it but they need to be proved to be guilty on the basis of hard evidence not what ASADA is 100% sure happened.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-...ada-lack-evidence-to-convinct-players/5934668

http://www.theroar.com.au/2014/12/02/asadas-case-essendon-brink-collapse/

The burning question is which way the AFL Tribunal, which is not a Court of Law, will go. Will they throw the case out ? Will they bow to external pressure and impose the full 2 year sanction or will they take the NRL option and backdate the ASADA recommended 2 year ban backdated to the time the offence occurred ? Maybe none of these but a concocted deal that allows the witch hunters at ASADA to feel vindicated and the AFL to save face ? Unless there is some compelling new evidence I am hoping it is the first option but as I admit to self interest I can accept the backdate option.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

WADA gave the undertaking that they would not appeal the sanctions first proposed by ASADA then annouced by the NRL. Where ASADA felt short changed was that the 12 month penalties were backdated to the time of the offence. This meant that players like Paul Gallen in effect served three weeks. If you look about half way down in the article linked below you will see what happened.

http://www.theroar.com.au/2014/08/22/cronulla-sharks-accept-doping-ban-deal-report/

Sorry but the Roar isnt that credible a source. Its a forum for sports fans and wanna be sports journo's to write sports news and opinions. You and I could go write for the Roar - look at the top RHS link.
"The decision of players to agree to these terms is believed to have been driven by assurances communicated from the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA), that the terms of the agreement would not be appealed by the international body."

That isnt a definitive WADA did it! Before I posted my comment I went looking for confirmation from an SMH, News Ltd or ABC story because the decision was handed down on 22nd August and WADA made their statement on 29th September 2014. Why the 5 week wait?
https://www.wada-ama.org/en/media/news/2014-09/wada-statement-on-nrl-sanctions

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

I am not saying that the ACC and ASADA did not share information but that is not the same as the ACC conducting an investigation into Essendon players. It is a closed hearing so we do not know who has said what and we do not even know who has given evidence and what that evidence is but I have not heard any reports of ACC investigators fronting the Tribunal.

You have been watching too many legal dramas. The AFL Tribunal has basically been the lawyers laying out the facts of their arguments and a couple of medical experts called. The Wookie updates the basic info the AFL release every day in the opening post of this thread.
http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threa...ssed-resumes-tues-27-1-details-in-op.1084109/

No investigators have to front the tribunal if the evidence is just being laid out. There is no cross examination. When you build a house where do you stick the first brick, on the foundation or 3 feet in the air?? The ACC investigation produced the foundation information for the Essendon investigation. If you dont understand that and the importance of all the work done during Project Aperio then you don’t understand diddly squat. And I put money on Essendon being the page 17 club in that report.

If Project Aperio was so irrelevant how many clubs have employed Dank and Charters since February 2013? How many have used Alavi as their compounding chemist?

The interesting thing about ASADA and legal rights is they appear to ignore the legal rights of others in their investigations yet seek to use the Courts when it suits them. ASADA were given clear advice that they would fail in their Victorian Supreme Court action to force Charter and Alvi to appear at an AFL Tribunal yet they went ahead and wasted taxpayer money. To some that Court action might indicate tenacity and dedication to a cause but to me it indicates desperation.

So what, Lawyers give advice all the time and courts show they are wrong in that advice.

I am not the only person questioning the strength of the ASADA case. The links below make interesting reading. I am not a lawyer but a couple of people who are also question the strength of the ASADA case. If the Essendon players are guilty so be it but they need to be proved to be guilty on the basis of hard evidence not what ASADA is 100% sure happened.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-...ada-lack-evidence-to-convinct-players/5934668

http://www.theroar.com.au/2014/12/02/asadas-case-essendon-brink-collapse/

Once again lots of people have lots of opinions in cluding some Nevill at The Roar. Read the title of many of the threads in the Hot Topics - The AFL, ASADA, and Drugs board and they start off with so many journo's and others who have made a call one way or the other on this and so far got it wrong.

The burning question is which way the AFL Tribunal, which is not a Court of Law, will go. Will they throw the case out ? Will they bow to external pressure and impose the full 2 year sanction or will they take the NRL option and backdate the ASADA recommended 2 year ban backdated to the time the offence occurred ? Maybe none of these but a concocted deal that allows the witch hunters at ASADA to feel vindicated and the AFL to save face ? Unless there is some compelling new evidence I am hoping it is the first option but as I admit to self interest I can accept the backdate option.

Why the need to use surreptitious language around ASADA? Their job is to catch cheats. - no different to the cops. By the sounds of things you probably would say Dank is a clean skin.

They were poorly funded and found themselves having to do a complex investigation that they didnt have the people and resources and experience, to do in the most efficient and effective way possible. Ben McDevitt has said so

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/...ns-but-hits-out-at-asada-20140930-10o9p1.html

"The reality is I don't think ASADA was ready for an investigation of this magnitude, and it's not just ASADA. I don't think any national anti-doping organisation in the world would have been ready for something of this magnitude, complexity, this enormity which was immediately made public and needed to be conducted under the public eye and in terms of resources and capabilities there significant delays in relation to

, for example interviews where we had players ready for interview but for a variety of reasons we weren't ready to actually conduct those interviews until some months later, a reason right there that players could seek backdating of penalties just for that and it's fair and reasonable and I've got to do this without fear or favour or malice or ill-will.".....

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/...ns-but-hits-out-at-asada-20140930-10o9p1.html

Ben had only been CEO since mid 2014, but he and his predecessor Aurora should have got in contact with the Bulldozer Jeff Novitzky for some help.

and USADA for some help. The BALCO - and Marion Jones/Trevor Graham group, baseballers and Armstrong and the cyclists were all long complex cases in the USA and Novitzky investigated all of them. Novitzky - has been called the Elliot Ness of PED invetigations. He started with the IRS going thru Victor Conte's bins looking for tax fraud around 2002, found documents about PEDs, chased that side of the things as well as tax dodging, the web of professional sports stars in the USA involved in tax dodging and PED's grew and grew, ended up transferring to the Food and Drug Administration as a special investigator and keeps on digging and finding stuff. He still works at the FDA.

And then there was the Major League Baseball stuff with Alex Rodriguez and the Miami clinic. I have posted this before at link below but this shows what can be done when you don't **** around at the crematorium and actually want to get to the truth. This link includes the full CBS 60 minute story.

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threa...fence-banned-for.1078688/page-4#post-35416479

The CBS 60 minutes story on Rodriguez at the start of 2014. It has Dank/Victor Conte type character - Anthony Bosch - with A-Rod being the Armstrong/Hird type arrogance and denial and the administrator from MLB who decided to do a proper investigation

"At the Manhattan headquarters of Major League Baseball, Rob Manfred had his sights on Bosch. A lawyer by training, Manfred runs Major League Baseball as the chief operating officer. Commissioner Selig told him to do what he had to do to get to the bottom of the scandal. Manfred hired the former director of the United States Secret Service and a number of retired FBI agents--more than 30 investigators in all. In the underworld of Miami, word got around. And a call came to Major League Baseball. Turned out there were more documents from Bosch's Biogenesis clinic."

The transcript is at
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-case-of-alex-rodriguez/

 

[Andre]

Players provisionally suspended

The secret talks took place last week amid growing concerns within the AFL and affected clubs that the anti-doping tribunal may not decide the case before this year’s football season starts.

The 34 players are provisionally suspended pending the outcome of the case.

Essendon will enter the 2015 season with only half a playing list to pick a team from if the tribunal does not hand down a finding before the opening round.

Players provisionally suspended

Hold on. Since when have they been provisionally suspended? I either missed that entirely, although you assume the time counts towards any suspension (yet is a Clayton's suspension since the players can remain training) or a journalist got it wrong again. And if they ARE provisionally suspended from playing wouldn't that mean the players also aren't allowed to play in the NAB challenge as well?

 

[Grave Danger]

Players provisionally suspended

The secret talks took place last week amid growing concerns within the AFL and affected clubs that the anti-doping tribunal may not decide the case before this year’s football season starts.

The 34 players are provisionally suspended pending the outcome of the case.

Essendon will enter the 2015 season with only half a playing list to pick a team from if the tribunal does not hand down a finding before the opening round.

Players provisionally suspended

Hold on. Since when have they been provisionally suspended? I either missed that entirely, although you assume the time counts towards any suspension (yet is a Clayton's suspension since the players can remain training) or a journalist got it wrong again. And if they ARE provisionally suspended from playing wouldn't that mean the players also aren't allowed to play in the NAB challenge as well?

Wasn't if from when they were issued their SCNs (or the date that they had to respond to them)? If nothing is resolved before the NAB challenge starts I'd think they wouldn't be able to play.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

once infraction notices are issued an athlete is provisionally suspended. He/she can train but cant compete in a competition run by the relevant sport.

If you go back a few pages there was a discussion about the Essendon players playing in the game against the Irish. The argument was that the IRS was a not a competition run by the AFL. a technicality.

If Armstrong was provisionally suspended from cycling he could have competeted in triathlon. But once he got a ban - he isnt allowed to compete in any sport who signed up to the Wada code.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

The provisional suspension was part of the reason I wanted us to make sure we had 5 ruck men on our list including someone like Baulerstone on the rookie list or even main list and banged on so much about having 5 in October and November. No Redden, Ryder and if Lobbe goes down late in the preseason, then Billy Frampton could be making his debut. Nice insurance and worst case scenario forward planing by some in our footy department team.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Hold on. Since when have they been provisionally suspended? I either missed that entirely, .....

Where were you mid November. From the most trustworthy journo on this whole saga - Jon Pierek of the Age someone who presents the facts rather than wide speculation and filling up a book of hidden agendas.

Essendon players want closed anti-doping tribunal hearing
Date (Saturday) November 15, 2014
The 34 former and current Essendon players issued with infraction notices want their cases to be heard behind closed doors.

Infraction notices were issued by the AFL on Friday, and the players, along with their AFL Players Association legal representatives, and lawyers for the Australian Sports Anti-Doping Authority, will appear before the AFL's anti-doping tribunal chairman David Jones, a former County Court judge, on Tuesday for a directions hearing.
.....
The players have now been provisionally suspended but can still train with teammates at the club. As it's out of season, the provisional suspension does not have major consequences.

It was still unclear on Saturday night whether Jobe Watson and Dustin Fletcher would, should they be part of the 34-man group, be allowed to play in the International Rules series against Ireland next weekend. If the anti-doping tribunal does find to a "comfortable satisfaction" there has been an anti-doping breach, and suspensions do eventuate, .........

Essendon players want closed anti-doping tribunal hearing

 

[Andre]

Where were you mid November. From the most trustworthy journo on this whole saga - Jon Pierek of the Age someone who presents the facts rather than wide speculation and filling up a book of hidden agendas.

Thanks. As long as the provisional suspension counts as part of any subsequent real suspension then I'm happy for a verdict to be laid down one day before our first round match.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Thanks. As long as the provisional suspension counts as part of any subsequent real suspension then I'm happy for a verdict to be laid down one day before our first round match.

I'm not 100% sure but I think any back dating will start at the latest when the provisional suspension was issued and probably early when its deemed the investigation finished, which Phhht has previously worked out is about early June 2014.

 

[Jim Dixon]

Lance Armstrong has come out and admitted that he'd dope again.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/jan/26/lance-armstrong-cheat-again-doping-cycling

“My answer is not a popular answer. If I was racing in 2015, no, I wouldn’t do it again, because I don’t think you have to. If you take me back to 1995, when it was completely and totally pervasive, I’d probably do it again. People don’t like to hear that. When I made the decision – when my team-mates made that decision, when the whole peloton made that decision – it was a bad decision and an imperfect time. But it happened.”

It's really hard to know what to make of Armstrong and how much credit to give to his words. But that's what he's saying, anyway.

 

[Killer Power]

I'm not 100% sure but I think any back dating will start at the latest when the provisional suspension was issued and probably early when its deemed the investigation finished, which Phhht has previously worked out is about early June 2014.

With Essendon now seeking for their players to be able to play pre-season matches despite the provisional suspensions it would be a joke of the highest order if they were to do so and still be allowed to backdate suspensions. Surely it is one or the other.

 

[scottjr]

With Essendon now seeking for their players to be able to play pre-season matches despite the provisional suspensions it would be a joke of the highest order if they were to do so and still be allowed to backdate suspensions. Surely it is one or the other.

No there is precedent in other sports they will get an extra day suspension for every game that they compete. So 6 months becomes 6 months and 3 days. It's something they'll have to weigh up I guess.

 

[Andre]

No there is precedent in other sports they will get an extra day suspension for every game that they compete. So 6 months becomes 6 months and 3 days. It's something they'll have to weigh up I guess.

And us with Ryder. With Redden in recovery and Trengove out of the NAB we both want at least one game Lobbe and Ryder play together before the real stuff. And we don't want to start the year by having Lobbe having to do the lot again.

Could be early rucking duties for a couple of the new recruits, plus the Hoff.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Port playing a waiting game

PORT Adelaide will wait and see how the AFL anti-doping hearing involving 34 past and current Essendon players unfolds in coming weeks before making any decision on whether it would seek permission for Paddy Ryder and Angus Monfries to play in the club’s NAB Cup opener.

There is a growing possibility the hearing — involving the Australian Sports AntiDoping Authority — will not be finished before Port’s opening NAB Cup match on March 8. Ryder, Monfries and the other 32 past and current players are provisionally suspended pending the outcome of the hearing.

If the hearing is still pending when Port opens its NAB Cup campaign against West Coast at Norwood Oval, the Power can request that the AFL lift the provisional suspensions and allow the pair to play. Essendon will ask the AFL to lift a provisional ban against about 18 current players should the case not be settled.

Port declined to make any comment on the case or its potential courses of action. Ryder was Port’s marquee off-season signing and the club knew when it recruited him there was a possibility he could still be caught up in saga when the season began.

If the AFL were to reject Essendon’s request to have provisional bans lifted and the hearing drags out through March, the Bombers might have to start the premiership season without playing a single warm-up match.

If the hearing were to continue beyond April 2, and Essendon’s players were still denied permission to play, the 2015 season would be in a tailspin from its opening weekend, with the Bombers struggling to fill a side.

Port playing a waiting game

 

[Andre]

Port playing a waiting game

If the AFL were to reject Essendon’s request to have provisional bans lifted and the hearing drags out through March, the Bombers might have to start the premiership season without playing a single warm-up match.

If the hearing were to continue beyond April 2, and Essendon’s players were still denied permission to play, the 2015 season would be in a tailspin from its opening weekend, with the Bombers struggling to fill a side.

Port playing a waiting game

My cynical view is the AFL will deny Essendon permission for the NAB, but let them play the H&A if it's still going then. They'll then spin it as punishing Essendon (keeping them out of a competition that means nothing), but not making a farce of the real stuff by handing their H&A early opponents an unfair advantage over teams who get them when they could play the players.

 

[snozulu]

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2015-01-29/asadadons-dday-looms
Outcome could only be a month away.

 

[Honeyboy Wilson]

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2015-01-29/asadadons-dday-looms
Outcome could only be a month away.

So after Feb 18, the only thing we will be waiting on is a verdict.

Hallelujah. Final-fudgin-ly.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

All closing submissions – from the Australian Sports Anti-Doping Authority, the players and the AFL – are due to be lodged and heard by February 18, at which point the Tribunal will adjourn to consider its decision.

There is no timetable for the Tribunal to make its ruling. The Bombers launch their NAB Challenge campaign on March 7.

So the tribunal might make a decision before the season starts. Good. But the bad is if ASADA or WADA appeal - it still wont be over - and the provisional suspensions are still in play I believe.

Which this bit confirms

Should any of the 34 current and former Essendon players or the former Essendon employee facing infraction notices be found to have breached the AFL Anti-Doping Code, a hearing would follow to set a sanction.

While the finish line appears in sight, the prospect of further legal challenges following a finding makes it possible for the players to remain in limbo going into the 2015 season, which launches on April 2. - See more at: http://www.afl.com.au/news/2015-01-29/asadadons-dday-looms#sthash.5EHdclVd.dpuf

 

[raptalia]

If this farce is still going in April all concerned should have their arses kicked. The hearing started in December, some murder trials are quicker. The suspensions are 'provisional' so thankfully the AFL can lift them pending a decision.

 

[Ralph Lorenz]

Well, Hird's case has been dismissed as expected.

 

[Forzaport]

Hird appeal dismissed. No surprises there.

So all these reports of Hird's lawyers telling him they had a strong chance of success turned out to be bullshit.