Mega Thread Hot Topic - Drugs and AFL

[finbarr]

I hope we didn't make a massive mistake going for Ryder.

It only would have been a big mistake if we'd somehow caved to Essendon's demands for our first pick and a best 22 player.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Also - was chatting to a dude at the pub tonight who work's in Freo's sports science department and he was saying that at it's height, Essendon's injection program proscribed 20 injections per player per week.

That's 3 a day. Pharmacologically experimental environment indeed!

Your friend is correct if Colostrum and Tribulus were injected and not taken orally. These two are legitimate multivitamins. From the AFL's charge sheet against Essendon.

http://www.afl.com.au/staticfile/AFL Tenant/AFL/Files/EssendonFC-notice-of-charges.pdf

68. Following that meeting, 38 players at the Club signed “Patient Information/Informed Consent” forms in relation to these four substances. In relation to these substances, those 38 players agreed to:
(a) one AOD-9604 injection per week for the season;
(b) one Thymosin injection once a week for six weeks and then one injection per month;
(c) two Colostrum daily in each training week and two colostrum post-game. The dose may vary according to training needs; and
(d) one Tribulus forte daily in each training week and one Tribulus prior to the game. The dose may vary according to training needs.

69. If the dosages the subject of the “Patient Information/Informed Consent” forms were administered, the playing group would receive in the order of:
(a) more than 1,500 injections of AOD-9064 and Thymosin; and
(b) more than 16,500 doses of Colostrum; and
(c) more than 8,000 doses of Tribulus.

http://www.afl.com.au/staticfile/AFL Tenant/AFL/Files/EssendonFC-notice-of-charges.pdf

 

[Sneeky]

Is it march 31 yet?

 

[Byrons Firen]

Benny Boy Cousins at it again out west
http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/b...fter-mysterious-incident-20150323-1m5oep.html
Its like watching somebody sprint thru a minefield.

 

[TeeKray]

If not found guilty and WADA appeals straight to CAS then they could miss a year or two whilst they are provisionally suspended and CAS finally gets to hear their case. Whilst the AFL tribunal is independent of AFL executives and Commissioners and chairman David Jones QC will not be listening to what AFL wants, he will consider the ramifications of a wrist slap to the players, as being a potential big issue in this process coming to its final legal conclusion ie it could go on well past his ruling.

Yep. It's in everyone's interests that the end game is a 6 monthish backdated suspension with the players missing only a month or two of actual games. And we've been buttered up for that outcome for close to a year.

 

[TeeKray]

I hope we didn't make a massive mistake going for Ryder.

He's got a 4 year contract, we've got a relatively young team. Even if he copped 2 years we'd still be a chance to win on the trade.

 

[LukeSA]

Hmm... the plot thickens.

A FORMER Essendon player is set to take take legal action against the AFL and Essendon, potentially linked to the supplements scandal.

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/sport...afl-and-essendon/story-fnia3v71-1227276034390

 

[Garibaldi Red]

Hmm... the plot thickens.



http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/sport...afl-and-essendon/story-fnia3v71-1227276034390

There was a former player who voiced his opinion in the media very early in the piece and was hounded down by Essendon flogs in the media. I wonder if this is the same person.

 

[Doctor Feel]

Kyle Reimers, wouldn't be anyone else. An action like this means he is likely anticipating a guilty verdict.

 

[Tibbs]

A former Essendon player is planning to take legal action against the AFL and the Essendon Football Club

Wow! This is going to get ugly! The players have been screwed by Essendon, and then reamed by the AFL! It woulnt suprise me if more players sue, especially if they are found guilty, and it affects their careers & remuneration as players. How can Hird, and the other Essendon officials involved, sleep at night?!!

 

[Jim Dixon]

How can Hird, and the other Essendon officials involved, sleep at night?!!

They've got a supplement for that?

 

[Andre]

If not found guilty and WADA appeals straight to CAS then they could miss a year or two whilst they are provisionally suspended and CAS finally gets to hear their case. Whilst the AFL tribunal is independent of AFL executives and Commissioners and chairman David Jones QC will not be listening to what AFL wants, he will consider the ramifications of a wrist slap to the players, as being a potential big issue in this process coming to its final legal conclusion ie it could go on well past his ruling.

No way the AFL is going to cop a 2 year suspension of Essendon. The TV networks would want money back, as they'd need to be either excluded from the draw altogether (8 games instead of 9) or their games are such farces with top-ups they'd say they aren't worth showing anyway.

The AFL only reluctantly joined ASADA / WADA to get some government funding. They're big enough to do without it and if push came to shove, IMO, they'd withdraw, wear the flack and move on. AFL fans aren't going to abandon the sport and there's no higher than AFL level competition like the Olympics they can be excluded from.

 

[Andre]

Kyle Reimers, wouldn't be anyone else. An action like this means he is likely anticipating a guilty verdict.

Not necessarily. If he thinks he was given things he wasn't aware of, he can think he's innocent of doping, but still have been given shit that's detrimental. That's effectively Ryder's position.

 

[Doctor Feel]

Not necessarily. If he thinks he was given things he wasn't aware of, he can think he's innocent of doping, but still have been given shit that's detrimental. That's effectively Ryder's position.

Ryder and Monfries are both allowing Essendon to represent them in court, they haven't gone it alone. It wouldn't be them. It's likely Reimers (given his previous opinion on it all) and possibly Lovett.

 

[Killer Power]

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...tion-against-afl-bombers-20150324-1m68gi.html

A former Essendon player is planning to take legal action against the AFL and the Essendon Football Club

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...tion-against-afl-bombers-20150324-1m68gi.html

Doesn't have an infraction notice? Maybe it is Vitamins McVeigh!

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

No way the AFL is going to cop a 2 year suspension of Essendon. The TV networks would want money back, as they'd need to be either excluded from the draw altogether (8 games instead of 9) or their games are such farces with top-ups they'd say they aren't worth showing anyway.

The AFL only reluctantly joined ASADA / WADA to get some government funding. They're big enough to do without it and if push came to shove, IMO, they'd withdraw, wear the flack and move on. AFL fans aren't going to abandon the sport and there's no higher than AFL level competition like the Olympics they can be excluded from.

I'm not really sure what you are saying. The AFL have no say in what their tribunal says. The AFL have no say in what CAS says. If the AFL tribunal succumbs and trys to rule a wrist slap ruling, then WADA will appeal straight to CAS and the AFL will have to wear the players being out of the game for as long as it takes for CAS to hear the case, and then make a ruling. Bad Flaming Luck

The AFL can jump up and down and leave the WADA Code but these guys know the PR consequence of doing that and the cancellation of government funding for footy and community programming and most importantly for stadium infrastructure, although most grounds now have been upgrade or funding like Burswood stadium has been fully committed.

 

[Jim Dixon]

If the players are found 'not guilty' and WADA/ASADA appeal to CAS, do they get to play or do they remain provisionally suspended?

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

If the players are found 'not guilty' and WADA/ASADA appeal to CAS, do they get to play or do they remain provisionally suspended?

They are provisionally suspended I believe - that is why I have said what I have in my last few points.

 

[PatientMental]

The problem with everything is that anti-doping has been setup to punish individuals in sport not teams, it's why American sports refuse to comply with the WADA code because it's a useless system when more than one person is involved. The case of Amed Saad was an easy one, given an 18 month suspension without any hesitation after testing positive to a banned substance found in an energy drink. It's setup for that, because it's a swift positive test to sentence verdict.

But when it comes to a group of 34 players on top of never tested positive it becomes incredibly muddied and difficult to handle.

What ASADA had to argue against Saad:
Positive samples of the energy drink 'Before Battle' containing the banned substance methylsynephrine.
Saad confessing to his club doctor and then ASADA that he took the banned substance match day.

What ASADA has to argue against Essendon:
0 positive A samples.
~40 various accounts of what happened
A practice of injecting the players with ASADA compliant substances.

But because it's similar to Brisbane's IV drip re-hydration of the early 2000's the injection program was punished by the AFL purely from the bad look on the game.​

An alleged practice of injecting the players with non-ASADA compliant substances.
Dank refusing to be questioned about the practice.

If ASADA somehow finds positive samples of physical proof banned ASADA substances:
The 18 month - 2 year ban will be handed down, destroying Essendon and they'll take the AFL down with them.
Potentially backdated to show cause letter date and Essendon will take them to court to back date it to original investigation date.

If ASADA has no physical proof banned ASADA substances were administered and used on players:
The players will cop a short to medium ban because of a lack of due care for their players welfare.

No matter what the outcome, Essendon are probably going to try and sue the pants off of ASADA/WADA for damages.

The WADA code does not work with team sports and until they rewrite an entire law to include team situations like this one, it will never work.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

The problem with everything is that anti-doping has been setup to punish individuals in sport not teams, it's why American sports refuse to comply with the WADA code because it's a useless system when more than one person is involved. The case of Amed Saad was an easy one, given an 18 month suspension without any hesitation after testing positive to a banned substance found in an energy drink. It's setup for that, because it's a swift positive test to sentence verdict.

But when it comes to a group of 34 players on top of never tested positive it becomes incredibly muddied and difficult to handle.

What ASADA had to argue against Saad:
Positive samples of the energy drink 'Before Battle' containing the banned substance methylsynephrine.
Saad confessing to his club doctor and then ASADA that he took the banned substance match day.

What ASADA has to argue against Essendon:
0 positive A samples.
~40 various accounts of what happened
A practice of injecting the players with ASADA compliant substances.

But because it's similar to Brisbane's IV drip re-hydration of the early 2000's the injection program was punished by the AFL purely from the bad look on the game.​

An alleged practice of injecting the players with non-ASADA compliant substances.
Dank refusing to be questioned about the practice.

If ASADA somehow finds positive samples of physical proof banned ASADA substances:
The 18 month - 2 year ban will be handed down, destroying Essendon and they'll take the AFL down with them.
Potentially backdated to show cause letter date and Essendon will take them to court to back date it to original investigation date.

If ASADA has no physical proof banned ASADA substances were administered and used on players:
The players will cop a short to medium ban because of a lack of due care for their players welfare.

No matter what the outcome, Essendon are probably going to try and sue the pants off of ASADA/WADA for damages.

The WADA code does not work with team sports and until they rewrite an entire law to include team situations like this one, it will never work.

If 34 Essendon players tested positive to a ban drugged the AFL/WADA code would have worked fine. Its when you dont have a positive and you have to go thru a long investigation process that it effects the day to day running of a team sports.

 

[Garibaldi Red]

If the players are found 'not guilty' and WADA/ASADA appeal to CAS, do they get to play or do they remain provisionally suspended?

Even the AFL signing off on the new WADA case will not help them play in Round 1

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...don-ryan-crowley/story-fni5f22o-1227275368272
AFL will sign off on new WADA code but little benefit for Essendon, Ryan Crowley
THE AFL Commission will sign off on the 2015 edition of the World Anti-Doping Agency code at Tuesday’s meeting, but there will be no immediate benefit to Docker Ryan Crowley or the “Essendon 34”.
.......
The provisions will not be a factor in the Essendon case — where there was potential for the Bombers to be allowed to play between next Tuesday’s verdict and, should they be found guilty, the final determination of a sanction.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...don-ryan-crowley/story-fni5f22o-1227275368272

 

[It Just Is]

Work safe Victoria should feel fairly ashamed that an individual needs to take such a well publisised case to Court.

Or does an AFL imposed fine excuse them of any responsibility?

 

[Andre]

The AFL can jump up and down and leave the WADA Code but these guys know the PR consequence of doing that and the cancellation of government funding for footy and community programming and most importantly for stadium infrastructure, although most grounds now have been upgrade or funding like Burswood stadium has been fully committed.

The government isn't going to shut out the AFL long term, let's remember they don't give the AFL money out of the goodness of their hearts, it's for votes. Those voters aren't going to disappear and you can bet one of the major parties in close seat(s) would quickly be back giving / offering money to get wins.

Bad PR in the short term is more manageable for the AFL, IMO, then risking losing TV rights and other monies from other than the government in the short / medium term.

 

[Andre]

The problem with everything is that anti-doping has been setup to punish individuals in sport not teams, it's why American sports refuse to comply with the WADA code because it's a useless system when more than one person is involved. The case of Amed Saad was an easy one, given an 18 month suspension without any hesitation after testing positive to a banned substance found in an energy drink. It's setup for that, because it's a swift positive test to sentence verdict.

But when it comes to a group of 34 players on top of never tested positive it becomes incredibly muddied and difficult to handle.

Individual sports it's easy. Athlete talks to their people, clarifies if unsure with ASADA. It's f-ing ridiculous to expect 34 players to all ring ASADA to clarify everything. That's why team sports the Doctor and club have to be taking more responsibility. Along with the coach and IMO those in the Essendon 2012 leadership group.

It's nice in theory that the players all line up so they can in turn talk to the ASADA rep (as it's meant to be every player for themselves so they can't trust what anyone else says), but idiotic in practise in a large team sport environment. With such a large group they should be able to rely on a designated person / people to handle any queries as required. Again the players as a whole should have been able to rely on Watson and the other leadership group members as their 'go to' people with the rest of the world to come back to them if there were any concerns. It's why I think the penalties should differ between the 34. The bulk deserve the 6 months backdated, but I'd give the leadership group 12 months. They were chosen to be the players reps and massively let the rest down.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

The government isn't going to shut out the AFL long term, let's remember they don't give the AFL money out of the goodness of their hearts, it's for votes. Those voters aren't going to disappear and you can bet one of the major parties in close seat(s) would quickly be back giving / offering money to get wins.

Bad PR in the short term is more manageable for the AFL, IMO, then risking losing TV rights and other monies from other than the government in the short / medium term.

Why would the goverment give the AFL $$$ for community programs when they get bagged for giving it to them, when they could give it to WADA compliant sports to do the community program? You dont reckon NRL, A-League, ARU, cricket, netball, basketball clubs will ask the feds for funding to run those programs in place of the AFL?

Look at the uproar that Athletics Ausralia was considering appointing someone who was in Charlie Francis'/Ben Johnson's training group as national athletics coach recently.

The AFL are full of spin merchants and PR consultants. They will not be prepared to accept the fall out from not being WADA compliant.

The 4 big US sports are the only major sports that have told WADA to get nicked. The yanks being the only global super power tell the rest or the world to get stuffed. They only use the UN when they get some benefit and ignore it when they dont. Soccer and Euro basketball dont tell WADA to get stuffed. We arent as big and as great as we think.