Mega Thread The 2015 Buckley coaching megathread

[popin]

It really is laughable how anyone can defend what has happened over the last few years. The excuses are never ending, Malthouses fault, injuries, retirements, compromised drafts, culture, list age profile, assistant coaches, training methods,the sub rule, players wanting to leave, a young list, etc etc etc. We havnt improved anywhere in over 3 years! These excuses are just that and are all BS.

The rat pack, Melbourne's bad tap drinking water, ed's fortune and fame

 

[ksardog]

see you just proved it again by replying to me always quoting and cant let it go, you cant help your self good luck lol but if but if but if.

Trying to explain something to u is obviously a waste of my time.

 

[ksardog]

It really is laughable how anyone can defend what has happened over the last few years. The excuses are never ending, Malthouses fault, injuries, retirements, compromised drafts, culture, list age profile, assistant coaches, training methods,the sub rule, players wanting to leave, a young list, etc etc etc. We havnt improved anywhere in over 3 years! These excuses are just that and are all BS.

No point explaining the obvious. A lot of these muppets havent experienced lows as a collingwood supporter, they think success is always just around the corner.

 

[popin]

Trying to explain something to u is obviously a waste of my time.

And again always have to have the last say and quote me lol
i have you on ignore for months and i don't care about what you post and i don't wont to hear what you have to say or explain to me, so your wasting your time quoting me mr always right cos i'm not stuck back in the past as it's 2015

 

[PieNSauce]

Ok. Some performances may have dropped off from the early season to the later season. What combination of our tailing off v some others improving is hard to measure but that's neither here nor there IMO. We lost once to the best side of period narrowly by virtue of a play on call back, once in a very ordinary display when the H&A season effectively was decided for us and once in a tough GF that IMO at least was influenced by poor coaching (changed game plan for the day to man on man and some inaction in making moves). It was an historically good season for us, albeit we failed to win the flag again. For people to somehow use a fall off to justify where were we are now I find bizarre. Geelong fell away much more in 2010 and Hawthorn fell away much more in 2009 both with older sides than we had. other than that, I'm not really sure the point you are making by mounting the argument though.

No point. Just correcting your mistake.

 

[PieNSauce]

Well, if the commentators said, it must be true.

I don't think they had to look far to see the contested possession count.

 

[PieNSauce]

I love all the debate about our game plan, or lack of one. The reality is that teams with a high quality list can display their game plan to full effect. Teams with lesser quality lists generally look like they don't have a game plan.

I think our problem at the moment is that we don't have a list capable of executing a game plan against the best. Once the pressure comes on our skills let us down and the plan turns to shit.

We lack the foot skills to implement any type of plan that might be successful against the best. This is not an easy fix. We have not recruited well in this regarded over many years. Until we have players with good skills we a doomed to not having an effective game plan. The coach is almost irrelevant.

I agree with some of this but not all. In particular, I am not convinced that we do not have the list capable of executing a game plan against the best. I've said it many times that inexperienced sides almost always look like they lack skill but from what I've seen over 50+ years of watching footy is that players who appear early in their careers to have poor skills can often turn out to be highly skilled once they have gained the self confidence that comes from experience.

I can't stress enough or too often that one of the biggest differences between the top teams and the bottom teams is confidence because generally players with confidence execute on their first option while those without often second-guess and hesitate. The effect is very obvious if you watch closely because when players execute without hesitation it buys their team time. When they second-guess, it robs the team of time. When a team is robbed of time due to a high concentration of inexperienced players without the confidence to execute it makes even the better and more experienced players look like they can't execute. I've seen Pendles occasionally look this way. Conversely, in a team with good levels of experience and confidence, players have time to execute because they have not been robbed of precious milliseconds. Of course it's not always 100% true because you will have players who cannot execute regardless of how much time they have but in general I think the rule holds fairly true. What I think also happens when a team if full of confidence is that even young inexperienced players can be made to look like world beaters because they can be carried along with the team.

To what extent a coach can affect this I'm not exactly sure other than to give them the experience and to provide constructive feedback. Time of course is a significant factor which is why I personally am not overly concerned at this stage. As I said earlier, I'm not sure at this stage that given the personnel we have had available we have not already improved in some areas. I can't see any valid argument on exposed form so far that the team lacks desire when you're killing the contested possession count but we all know that contested possessions alone will not win many matches.

 

[ClaytonM]

Sorry I have to strongly disagree. It's called natural attrition and happens to every single club over a 3/4 year period. Sydney, Hawthorn, Geelong were no different - the only difference was they didn't offload a raft of players in their absolute prime.

Nice try. Let's us look at the players we have offloaded:
- Dawes - Done nothing since leaving
- Wellingham - Done nothing since leaving
- Thomas - Done nothing since leaving
- Shaw - gone okay
- Beams - To early
- Lumumba - to early

Dawes, Wellingham and Thomas have done nothing since leaving and we were well compensated for their departures. So far at least we have done well from those trades.

Beams we had no say in so really doesn't count in the argument. So by me the only questionable decisions are Shaw and Lumumba and they are both head cases. Yes I would like Shaw on our list but happy to have Adams as compensation.

We have lost three A graders in Buckley's time. Two we had no choice in and one a head case. The rest were bit players that had major deficiencies.

 

[ClaytonM]

The really ironic thing here is that it's so often the Buckley Brigade that bring MM back into the argument. Why can't we be as patient with Bucks, Mick was given 10 years ... Mick left a list of ageing hacks, Mick poisoned the playing group.

None of the posters I'm seeing raising concerns about Bucks seem to be calling for Mick's return. Merely questioning whether he's the right man for the job in the here and now.

I am not critical of the decisions made by MM but I do acknowledge the impact they have had on the list today. The decisions regarding Wood, Jolly, Ball, Krak/Creglar were based on sound reasoning. Even the decision re Wood I can understand. He was a high draft pick with good skills. Unfortunately he lacks heart.

That does not make me a MM hater. I would never argue that we should not have done the Jolly and Ball deals, but they are impacting us now.

In the same way Walsh is profiting from the poor on field performance of Adelaide over the past 7-8 years and their good trading/recruiting under Craig and Sanderson, Buckley is suffering due to our strong on field performance over the past 7-8 years and the trading out of our limited high draft picks.

I am not a MM hater or a Buckley devotee. I just acknowledge the situation both coaches faced and understand why they made the decisions they made.

I am not sold on Buckley the coach, but he and the club have taken a long term strategy regarding the list with our recruitment and we should take a long term view regarding the coach as well.

 

[PieNSauce]

I am not critical of the decisions made by MM but I do acknowledge the impact they have had on the list today. The decisions regarding Wood, Jolly, Ball, Krak/Creglar were based on sound reasoning. Even the decision re Wood I can understand. He was a high draft pick with good skills. Unfortunately he lacks heart.

That does not make me a MM hater. I would never argue that we should not have done the Jolly and Ball deals, but they are impacting us now.

In the same way Walsh is profiting from the poor on field performance of Adelaide over the past 7-8 years and there good trading/recruiting under Craig and Sanderson, Buckley is suffering due to our strong on field performance over the past 7-8 years and the trading out of our limited high draft picks.

I am not a MM hater or a Buckley devotee. I just acknowledge the situation both coaches faced and understand why they made the decisions they made.

I am not sold on Buckley the coach, but he and the club have taken a long term strategy regarding the list with our recruitment and we should take a long term view regarding the coach as well.

This! I would struggle to put it more eloquently! To me it seems we have a good number of very impatient supporters on here who discount the fact that Bucks is at the centre of a major cultural rebuild which inevitably has fall out especially in regard to players who have played their entire career under a single coach. There is no shortcut to success in what the club is trying to achieve and when you add on the setbacks we have endured in regard to injury I can see why some people are getting nervous but I firmly believe that there is light at the end of the tunnel if we are prepared to stick fast. Clearly some expect everything on a plate.

 

[ClaytonM]

All of them if they hadn't been able to maintain the dominance.
From 1980 between flags
Richmond. 1980 Still waiting.
Essendon. 1985 8 years. Came off back to back though.
Hawthorn. 1991. 17 years although somewhat excused due to 80's.
Carlton. 1995. Still waiting
North 1999. Still waiting.
Swans. 2005. 7 years
West Coast. 2006 Still waiting
It's what makes Brisbane (aided), Geelong and Hawthorn so bloody good. They are exceptions to the rule.
We had the chance in 11 to go back to back and get the two flags some think we should have had. Didn't happen.

There have been three 'dynasty' in the last 15 years. Brisbane's was manufactured by a merger. Geelong's was built on an over generous father son rule and an exceptional cohort of sons. If only all of Cloke's boys were any good. The Hawks was built on years of failure (high draft picks) and some exceptional trading and the exploitation of the new free trade rules.

As you said these are all exceptions to the rules. We are progressing as the system is designed. Period at the top where access to talent is limited followed by a period of decline before a rebuild commences. That is what the AFL has built. If we had access to free trade in 2009 we may have been able to recruit a ruckman without giving up pick 14. But they were the rules at the time and giving up those picks is hurting us now.

 

[ClaytonM]

you should get the gist of it soon the bucks haters are pretty much the mick m lovers like some people above ksardog who rather mick be coach still etc etc so have fun trying to move fwd on here as it always comes back full circle to i love mick people v's supporters who back any coach of our team.
I don't hate mick or bucks so it get's old on here as it's 2015 not 2010 (mick) etc

I am neither a MM hater or a Buckley admirer. I like to see myself as a realist. I like most on here I assume got caught up in the hubris of 2010/11. We thought we had a dynasty and multiple flags was our destiny. But unlike some I can now reflect on what I thought at that time and realise the problem was my expectations, not MM or Bucks.

The list we had was not as good as we thought. It had a short lifespan because much of it was getting old and we did not have ready replacements. 2011 & 12 should/could have been the years but injuries and other factors prevented that.

Don't blame MM or Buckley, just acknowledge the facts. Our list needed a major overhaul post 2012 and we have started on that process. Grundy and Broomhead are both in their third years now and their performances against the Crows were promising. Time is needed for these kids to come on.
I would leave Buckley there for the next two years regardless of the results. If we stink it up we get good draft picks as compensation and we get a new coach to move us forward. If we progress well we keep Buckley and continue.

I am a realist about where we were and where we are now. Sacking Buckley any time soon I believe would be extremely detrimental. From all reports the players support Buckley. Sacking Buckley while the players support him will only undermine the players confidence and confidence in the club. Not a good outcome when you are building a young list. If we are stinking it up really badly at the end of this year, or are not showing real signs of improvement next years (not necessarily ladder position) then I would suspect the club and the players will both acknowledge that it is time for Buckley to go.

 

[MarkT2]

I believe they were pumped by Brisbane the following year and fell in to obscurity for the next decade.

They were tipped to have a 'dynasty' too from memory...

I think you are getting the 1993 and 2000 sides mixed up.

 

[Starcevich90]

Nice try. Let's us look at the players we have offloaded:
- Dawes - Done nothing since leaving
- Wellingham - Done nothing since leaving
- Thomas - Done nothing since leaving
- Shaw - gone okay
- Beams - To early
- Lumumba - to early

Dawes, Wellingham and Thomas have done nothing since leaving and we were well compensated for their departures. So far at least we have done well from those trades.

Beams we had no say in so really doesn't count in the argument. So by me the only questionable decisions are Shaw and Lumumba and they are both head cases. Yes I would like Shaw on our list but happy to have Adams as compensation.

We have lost three A graders in Buckley's time. Two we had no choice in and one a head case. The rest were bit players that had major deficiencies.

Don't underestimate the value of role players in any successful unit. Dawes, Wellingham and guys like L Brown were crucial to the flag and GFs.

I know some people differ to me on this, but I assess the departed on what they did with us, not what they've done under a completely different regime elsewhere.

And you could easily argue the booting of a guy like Shaw starts a snowball effect, hence you lose a guy like Beams.

It's poor management not to be able to hold a list together - Bucks is getting paid $1m a year to manage and massage all of the different personalities and he hasn't been able to do it, and now we find ourselves up shit creek.

 

[PieNSauce]

Don't underestimate the value of role players in any successful unit. Dawes, Wellingham and guys like L Brown were crucial to the flag and GFs.

I know some people differ to me on this, but I assess the departed on what they did with us, not what they've done under a completely different regime elsewhere.

And you could easily argue the booting of a guy like Shaw starts a snowball effect, hence you lose a guy like Beams.

It's poor management not to be able to hold a list together - Bucks is getting paid $1m a year to manage and massage all of the different personalities and he hasn't been able to do it, and now we find ourselves up shit creek.

Unless of course the list is not what you want to hold together. You can argue about the relative merits of the strategy employed but there is no conclusive evidence that Bucks cannot hold together a list of players that he actually wants.

 

[Unknown Identity]

I am still unsure whether i fully believe Buckley can coach..

But the plain undeniable fact is that our injury profile over the last 3 years has been horrendous.

And Again this year, we have missing..

Greenwood
Sidebottom
Sinclair
Kennedy
Scharenberg
Macaffer
Young
Reid (could be back in seniors this week)
Freeman (could debut in seniors this week)
Keefe (drugs)
Thomas (drugs)

We continue to have excessive amounts of players sitting on the sidelines, no team would flourish having that many players not available for senior selection.

We have still yet to have 2 top 10 draft picks debut for us from 2013 draft while Kelly, Billings, Bontempelli, Kolodjashnij, Aish, McDonald, Salem, Sheed, Dunstan, McCarthy, Impey, Taylor, Honeychurch are all having a positive impact on field for their respective clubs.

I cannot dismiss Buckley as coach until we have at least a solid run at it fielding the best possible team or close to it for a sustained period of time.

 

[PieNSauce]

I am still unsure whether i fully believe Buckley can coach..

But the plain undeniable fact is that our injury profile over the last 3 years has been horrendous.

And Again this year, we have missing..

Greenwood
Sidebottom
Sinclair
Kennedy
Scharenberg
Macaffer
Young
Reid (could be back in seniors this week)
Freeman (could debut in seniors this week)
Keefe (drugs)
Thomas (drugs)

We continue to have excessive amounts of players sitting on the sidelines, no team would flourish having that many players not available for senior selection.

We have still yet to have 2 top 10 draft picks debut for us from 2013 draft while Kelly, Billings, Bontempelli, Kolodjashnij, Aish, McDonald, Salem, Sheed, Dunstan, McCarthy, Impey, Taylor, Honeychurch are all having a positive impact on field for their respective clubs.

I cannot dismiss Buckley as coach until we have at least a solid run at it fielding the best possible team or close to it for a sustained period of time.

I think injuries are a small if important part of the reason we are where we are. You simply cannot dismiss the fact that the stated aim of the club and the coach is to change the culture and that was always going to result in list turn over. I am also unconvinced about Bucks but I'm still very much of the belief that I haven't had time to assess.

 

[MarkT2]

Unless of course the list is not what you want to hold together. You can argue about the relative merits of the strategy employed but there is no conclusive evidence that Bucks cannot hold together a list of players that he actually wants.

Yeh there is. They tried to keep Thomas. At the very least Buckley himself has said he didn't want to lose Beams.

It's academic though. If he decided a premiership wasn't what he wanted for cultural reasons and we end up with what we have he's still not the right person IMO. Great coaches get Heath Shaw's to play for them. They understand his medical issues and work with them and make them great players.

 

[PieNSauce]

Yeh there is. They tried to keep Thomas. At the very least Buckley himself has said he didn't want to lose Beams.

It's academic though. If he decided a premiership wasn't what he wanted for cultural reasons and we end up with what we have he's still not the right person IMO. Great coaches get Heath Shaw's to play for them. They understand his medical issues and work with them and make them great players.

If players want to leave then there is not much you can do and arguably not much you'd want to do other than move on and recruit players who want to be there. I cannot see how anyone can logically blame Bucks for Thomas following daddy or Shaw deciding that he wanted off the bus just because he was told there were standards he would have to conform to. Beams is in a similar boat to Daisy but I don't think anyone can confidently say that his reasons for leaving have anything to do with Bucks or in fact that they weren't all about family.

 

[JackoSpades]

As a midlife collingwood supporter l have spent years in the wilderness supporting the pies. At this point I can see the potential for a great future under bucks and the young players already on the list, we should get a couple more this year too. Its going to be 2017 before we see the light if everything goes our way and the potential comes through. I think Bucks should be given the chance to be there when it does.
I am still passionate and want to see us winning every week and may show my disappointment occasionally, but overall I am trying to be patient.

 

[domin8tors]

Mr argument is what we are are currently and have been serving up for 4 years now.

Like I said, eventually the masses will see it for what it is- a failure. Eventually, the club will make the call on financial grounds rather than football ones once the wheels completely come off.

those with realistic expectations see it as it is, which is a club in transition.

 

[ksardog]

those with realistic expectations see it as it is, which is a club in transition.

Its not the being in transition now that im concerned with, all clubs go up and down. The competition is designed to be that way.

Its the not getting the most we could get out of the playing group we had assembled is the part that annoys me. We didnt give ourselves every chance in '11,'12 and even '13 to achieve what we could of and probably should of.

 

[cleomenes]

It's good to see that reasonable voices still appear on this thread, despite the weary years of blame for the coach. Every team's season is hostage to its availability list, after the actual list is taken into account. This has always been true, and will continue to be.
I don't agree with every coaching decision I observe on screen, but I'm often wrong. Most decisions I am not even aware of, as I don't see their consequences on TV. Most of us (all?) are in this position.
So few on this thread seem prepared to accept that anything better than one premiership every 17 years is beating the odds. I can't see any point in blaming the coach when there is no evidence that he has caused a problem. There is plenty of supposition on this thread, but no evidence.
All I am doing is looking at the group we can put into the midfield at the moment and admitting that those players are doing above average jobs to compete with their opposition. They are too young to be reliable performers there. By the end of the year, I expect the midfield to be doing a lot better, and therefore the team to be doing better, simply because of the experience that will have accumulated there. If we can pick up some wins against the weaker teams as this develops, we can still look like a finals team in the last weeks of the roster. We won't look like a premiership team this year.
What exactly will sacking the coach achieve? Nothing. AFL coaches are sacked far too often as scapegoats for lack of success when 14 teams will consider themselves unsuccessful EVERY year.

 

[hellfire]

Its not the being in transition now that im concerned with, all clubs go up and down. The competition is designed to be that way.

Its the not getting the most we could get out of the playing group we had assembled is the part that annoys me. We didnt give ourselves every chance in '11,'12 and even '13 to achieve what we could of and probably should of.

I think we're kidding ourselves if we believe that our list could have won anything in 2012 or 2013. Hawthorn had seemingly already gone past us in late 2011, and it was only their choke and some individual brilliance from Dane Swan and Travis Cloke that got us onto the big stage. In 2012 and 2013, we were never going to be able to touch them at their best because their list was more talented and quite simply better.

 

[ksardog]

I think we're kidding ourselves if we believe that our list could have won anything in 2012 or 2013. Hawthorn had seemingly already gone past us in late 2011, and it was only their choke and some individual brilliance from Dane Swan and Travis Cloke that got us onto the big stage. In 2012 and 2013, we were never going to be able to touch them at their best because their list was more talented and quite simply better.

Made the prelim in 2012, hawthorn almost choked in prelim that year too. Anything can happen on the day. We didnt give ourselves the best chance.

Anyway, i didnt say win it in '12 and '13, i said give it our best chance to win it. U need luck, u also make your own luck. We did neither.