No Oppo Supporters CAS hands down guilty verdict - Players appealing - Dank shot - no opposition - (cont in pt.2)

[pepsi]

I know a lot feel sorry for the older players but I feel most for the young players. As if they were going to do anything but follow the senior players. When you think about when the program first started some players were so young. Heppell was only 19, steinberg 19, colyer 20 and Browne 19.

 

[baz_machine]

That was one of the dodgy bits about it for me too:

My reading: it basically said he tried to get it from china which we have evidence of.. but we're not sure if its for the club, or either of his 2 side businesses, and even though there is no evidence to say it got to Australia, we just assume he got it from somewhere else - to which there is no evidence of that either

that's my biggest gripe; we couldn't find direct evidence of Dank actually having TB-4 at the club except SOME of the players seeing vials (of god knows what) in the FRIDGE but that doesn't matter as he could have got TB-4 somewhere else anyway, so we don't' need to care about that.

So what happens if none of the players saw vials in the fridge?

 

[Mr Mojo Risin]

I agree it, however the fact they didnt volunteer the injections to ASADA looks like they knew they were at least controversial. What other reasons would there be?

https://www.asada.gov.au/anti-doping-programmes/testing/testing-guide

https://www.asada.gov.au/anti-doping-programmes/testing/testing-guide

Could quite easily have told the truth and not hid anything without being evasive while doing exactly as asked.

 

[Mr Mojo Risin]

that's my biggest gripe; we couldn't find direct evidence of Dank actually having TB-4 at the club except SOME of the players seeing vials (of god knows what) in the FRIDGE but that doesn't matter as he could have got TB-4 somewhere else anyway, so we don't' need to care about that.

So what happens if none of the players saw vials in the fridge?

Shit, I've seen vials at work AND a fridge...Dank is everywhere with this TB4 shit!

 

[expires]

but not ASADA surely

Think that goes to the heart of a cultural problem. The players saw themselves as being answerable to club first and foremost. It was Essendon's secret and they were soldiers of Essendon and our next premiership.

Think their mindset would have been 'If I'm not testing positive, what's it matter'.

Actually don't think they thought they were involved in anything controversial at all. The club had allayed all those fears.

But your take may be right. Don't know. Can't imagine the likes of Jobe Watson living his days believing he might be engaging in a doping violation, best keep the supplement process away from ASADA next time I fill the vial with you know what for them. The way he opened himself up to the AOD vitriol says that wasn't his frame or mind.

 

[mxett]

Think that goes to the heart of a cultural problem. The players saw themselves as being answerable to club first and foremost. It was Essendon's secret and they were soldiers of Essendon and our next premiership.

Think their mindset would have been 'If I'm not testing positive, what's it matter'.

Actually don't think they thought they were involved in anything controversial at all. The club had allayed all those fears.

But your take may be right. Don't know. Can't imagine the likes of Jobe Watson living his days believing he might be engaging in a doping violation, best keep the supplement process away from ASADA next time I fill the vial with you know what for them. The way he opened himself up to the AOD vitriol says that wasn't his frame or mind.

I agree, can't imagine Jobe or some of the others outright cheating. Tanner claimed yesterday that pretty much everything is out in the public domain now, but I disagree. We the fans really need some answers from the club and players I think

 

[ManWithNoName]

Wow wtf are you on about? You said we couldn't complain if we were punished again. You said we were punished for governance not doping. You said we were lucky not to get punished again. You said you were "staggered" we weren't punished again.

None of that is right. None of it.

And worse, you just pretend you agree with me somehow whilst you completely ignore any of the actual points that do matter and were raised. Like the fact that EFC were denied due process by the actions of the AFL. That the penalties were based on the charge sheet. And that "governance" was nothing more than a fabrication that means nothing in reality

I honestly don't get why you're being so aggressive about something so meaningless. Chill.

 

[IHurley]

not a chance in hell, no

We will get our $2 million fine back though - if only because we will be a mendicant club for several years.

 

[Doss]

We will get our $2 million fine back though - if only because we will be a mendicant club for several years.

By stealth we'll get it back. Officially, of course not.

 

[Beerfish]

I honestly don't get why you're being so aggressive about something so meaningless. Chill.

Not sure what's so aggressive about it.

 

[caboose]

Dempsey and Winderlich were injured, or coming back from injury, at the time. I think that explains them.

I don't think first year players, or at least young first players, participated- so that explains J.Merrett, Kav and NOB. And, I suppose, Hunter and Dalgleish. What is interesting though, is that two of the three mature agers who started with us in 2012 (Lee, Dell) got notices, but Bags didn't.

No idea with Reimers, Ross or Long.

Reimers was asleep, I believe.

 

[ManWithNoName]

Not sure what's so aggressive about it.

It came across as aggressive. But it is very hot today so maybe my brain isn't functioning at its normal 20%. My bad. Peace Lance Uppercut

 

[Doss]

Reimers was asleep, I believe.

Getting that spider tattoo refined, maybe?

Who knows.

 

[Canyouhearthedrums]

So you are saying that any of these guys who may suffer mental stress, depression do not have a leg to stand on ?

As far as Port, The Bulldogs and the Saints go it is not like we where hiding anything from them. They knew there was a chance it could go either way.

They would have to prove that the stress etc has caused a permanent and significant psychological injury. "Significant" has a legal definition and is a high threshold - think major depression, features of PTSD etc. Also has to be permanent, so even if they are badly affected now, they need to prove that they are unlikely to recover.

This is just for damages for pain and suffering mind, nothing to do with lost wages etc.

 

[ant555]

They would have to prove that the stress etc has caused a permanent and significant psychological injury. "Significant" has a legal definition and is a high threshold - think major depression, features of PTSD etc. Also has to be permanent, so even if they are badly affected now, they need to prove that they are unlikely to recover.

This is just for damages for pain and suffering mind, nothing to do with lost wages etc.

I think being under the pressure they have been for as long as they have there will be some who will have a legit claim. Would not be all but this may be the final straw for a few.
Have seen how it works first hand myself.

 

[60sbomber]

Hi all,
Why was James Hird in the early days saying "when the truth comes out it will look very good for our club/players etc)? When is James going to tell this truth?? Is James Hird just full of shit or is there a reason why he hasn't said anything yet?

At the time, the AFL (via the Age) was painting a picture of rampant use of exotic drugs at Essendon, with Hird the main architect. The club was being investigated by ASADA for suspected use of Hexarelin and CJC1260, neither of which were used. AOD 9604 was all the talk in the papers. Essendon thought they had only given legal supplements, and it still may be true. Hird believed when everyone told the truth, and all the facts were known, there would be no illegal substance use at the club. He is, to this day, and even after the CAS verdict, still possibly correct. It's just that it doesn't seem that way, given the governance/supervision/record keeping shortcomings that the club has admitted, and given that the CAS decision has legitimised the assertion by ASADA that illegal TB4 was used.

James was gunning hard to say that demitriou tipped essendon off that ASADA was looking at them, like in the days before they self reported before with david evans, correct? Isn't he doing essendon a favour by doing this? Why is there so much angst toward the AFL? Why is the AFL to blame for our supplement program?

Yes Demetriou was trying to manage the fallout from the "darkest day" press conference, and yes, you could interpret his actions as being helpful in preparing the club for the storm. Thereafter, Demetrious and the AFL's plan was to go hard on the club and on club officials, Hird being the primary target, in the hope of striking an agreement with ASADA (under duress from the Minister for Sport) to spare the players, and in so doing, protect the AFL from stuffing its comp. Hird, believing he, and the club, had done no wrong, was not prepared to go along with being scapegoated, and fought back in one of the few ways available to him, by accusing Demetriou of lying about the tip off.
And the AFL isn't to blame for the program, but it is to blame for the massive PR campaign, via its leaks, which saw the club, and Hird, maligned and penalised in a way that was not justified by any evidence, or any hearing, using standover tactics and threats to both Hird and the club, in August 2013.
Really, this is very brief. You could write a book about it. And Chip Le Grand has done. You should read it if you want background to your questions.

Do you buy into the idea that we were just the only club that got caught, that other clubs had similar supplement programs?

Definitely. There is evidence that other clubs were under suspicion and ASADA had blood tests sent to Germany in 2012 from clubs other than Essendon. This came out in the Middleton hearing.
Hird said we were just trying to catch up to other clubs. I don't know what caused him to think that.
The judgement by the CAS also said that ASADA believed that TB4 use was widespread throughout the AFL in 2012, although this has not been publicised, surprise, surprise.
Geelong suddenly got bigger and stronger and more successful in the mid noughties when Robinson was there and, by his own admission, was consulting with Dank on an almost daily basis.
West Coast were renowned for being bigger and stronger in the early 90's, possible due to steroid use.
There are enough strands in the wire to make CAS more than comfortably satisfied.

In the early days I felt like essendon was almost wrongly accused, I bought into their carefully prepared words that the players were innocent, we firmly believe nothing was wrong rah rah rah, but now I'm feeling more like there should be no one to blame except the coaches and administration at the club in 2012 inclusive of james hird. I want to cry for jobe and the playing group because i feel like they were lead astray and didn't have any malicious intent, but i ams tarting feel really angry toward james and the supporting staff of 2012, interesting Tim Watson said he doesn't speak to james at all anymore on SEN...

Nothing wrong with your early days thoughts. All that has really changed from that time is the evidence of poor supervision of, and too much trust placed in, Dank and Robinson. The players are innocent. This so, despite CAS finding them guilty on the basis that a few suspicious circumstances equals proof to comfortable satisfaction. I still believe Hird did nothing wrong.
What has happened is that there has been enough consequences, and enough accusations, and now the BS guilty verdict, that have made the PR and the accusations seem like they are well founded.
What we had was a pair of rogues, Dank and Robinson, a trusting and lax supervisory group, a poor management structure that enabled Reid to be sidelined, and a campaign by the AFL that made it all seem worse than it was.

Anyway, that's my thoughts. No doubt others think more harshly of Hird and the club.
I don't want to kick off another round of debate on the subject of blame. I think we should all take the lead from Tanner when he said there is no point in pointing the finger at individuals (within the club) and that the club as a whole has to share the blame.
I still feel the need to point the finger fairly and squarely at the AFL, ASADA, WADA and CAS, as well as a compliant media, for making this the disaster it has become for us.

 

[Bombermania]

is that we have now put in charge of our club a member of the very government that put us in this position for the sake of distracting the media!!! YES FOLKS!! JUST REMEMBER THAT LYNDSAY TANNER WAS ONE OF GILLARD'S RIGHT HAND MEN AND NOW HE IS RUNNING OUR CLUB!!!

.

I share your displeasure with how this club and the Gillard government handled this matter but in fairness to Tanner, he is no friend of Gillard, in fact he hates her, they are factional rivals within the same faction.

 

[eth-dog]

I share your displeasure with how this club and the Gillard government handled this matter but in fairness to Tanner, he is no friend of Gillard, in fact he hates her, they are factional rivals within the same faction.

Tanner doesn't actually hate Gillard. They weren't friends, no, but that's actually incorrect.

 

[The Dustbin]

listen to this on Audioboo

Tony Jones upset with Tracey because she didn't say what he wanted to hear about James Hird.

 

[Bombermania]

Tanner doesn't actually hate Gillard. They weren't friends, no, but that's actually incorrect.

Interesting, the political community describes their relationship as frosty and often use the word hate but strangely no one knows why which might explain your point.

 

[eth-dog]

Interesting, the political community describes their relationship as frosty and often use the word hate but strangely no one knows why which might explain your point.

He just hated the direction the party was going in and when Gillard got power he left because he knew they were ****ed

 

[lysp]

http://www.essendonfc.com.au/news/2016-01-13/jobe-watson-statement

Essendon Captain Jobe Watson has made the following statement on behalf of the 34 players;

The decision announced by the Court of Arbitration for Sport to uphold WADA’s appeal is devastating.

We are struggling to come to terms with this decision, and feel it does not support the players’ firm belief that we are innocent.

Our legal team is conducting a thorough review of the decision and will explore any avenues available to us.

The players would like to thank our families, our friends, our members and supporters for their unwavering support.

We would also like to thank the AFLPA for their ongoing support throughout the last three years.

We will not be making any further comment and ask the media to please respect our privacy during this extremely challenging period.

 

[pepsi]

It may be futile, but I'm glad they are exploring their options.

 

[abers47]

What's the deal with the part that says none of the players bothered to check the status of the substances. I thought Amanda Crameri said they (the Crameri's) had researched all of them online and check their status on the WADA website? Was that not presented as part of the defence?

She did and I bought this up with friends today

 

[tesla1962]

listen to this on Audioboo

Tony Jones upset with Tracey because she didn't say what he wanted to hear about James Hird.

lol terrible from jones
'i am not going to tell you how to do your job' - translation: i am a patronising dickhead