Trade unions - ripping off low paid workers

[VineyIsLORD]

Title fixed.

Its still not right. It sounds like the union in question basically ripped off the scab portion of their work force, which is a victim-less crime for a union.

"Big business rips off scabs, Union doesnt care" might sound a bit better

 

[VineyIsLORD]

who cares right? after all the cost of crime and corruption is on-costed to the poor anyway.

it is a disgrace

What's a disagrace is the sheer amount of money pissed away on one small conviction.

Even today the Canberra offices of the CFMEU were raided, 22 AFP Officers showed up alongside the ACCC investiators! Do you know how much it costs to get 22 AFP Officers in the same place?

CFMEU were completely fine with it too, the cops just up and left after 30 minutes because CFMEU were completely cooperative and had nothing to hide.

The way the MUA and CFMEU have been treated by this "democratic" government, is akin to the way Hitler treated Trade Unions.

 

[Chief]

Its still not right. It sounds like the union in question basically ripped off the scab portion of their work force, which is a victim-less crime for a union.

"Big business rips off scabs, Union doesnt care" might sound a bit better

Look I am sick of the left-leaning namby pamby commies on this board!

 

[Scotland]

I bet coal miners in the South West are thrilled with the AMWU and FWC right now.

 

[VineyIsLORD]

I bet coal miners in the South West are thrilled with the AMWU and FWC right now.

As in SW WA?

Why?

 

[Power Raid]

As in SW WA?

Why?

workers were happy to take the pay rise going up in a cycle but not happy taking a cut going down. I'm not sure of the details of the agreements and whether the agreements were pre or post the company going into administration but the agreement had a working week of 35 hours and double pay over 35 hours.

The company sought to reduce the working week from 42 hours to 35. This meant a flat wage and no overtime. the overtime equates to $50k pa or 43% of the wage cost. Essentially 7 hours or 18% of the time was responsible for 43% of the cost.

 

[Scotland]

As in SW WA?

Why?

Yep SW WA. Power Raid pretty much covered it - but his maths doesn't add up. If $50k is 43% of your final wage then your total wage is $116k and before over time is $66k for a 35 hour week, or $36 an hour. $50k for an extra 7 hours a week is $137 an hour. Not sure even the most obstreperous trade union has ever negotiated quadruple time after 35 hours a week...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-12/wa-mine-workers-face-43-per-cent-pay-cut/7503584

The company had asked workers to take a 26 per cent pay cut and work an extra seven hours a week — but they had refused.

Essentially negotiations for a new collective agreement had been going on for a year without resolution. The FWC's decision was that if the union/workers weren't happy with what was offered then they should go on the black coal award, which has left them worse off.

 

[Demosthenes]

What's a disagrace is the sheer amount of money pissed away on one small conviction.

Even today the Canberra offices of the CFMEU were raided, 22 AFP Officers showed up alongside the ACCC investiators! Do you know how much it costs to get 22 AFP Officers in the same place?

CFMEU were completely fine with it too, the cops just up and left after 30 minutes because CFMEU were completely cooperative and had nothing to hide.

The way the MUA and CFMEU have been treated by this "democratic" government, is akin to the way Hitler treated Trade Unions.

Wow, that's a pretty hysterical reaction.

 

[Chief]

workers were happy to take the pay rise going up in a cycle but not happy taking a cut going down.

Workers, salesmen, executives, teachers, politicians... everyone takes credit for the good times and blames conditions out of their control for bad times.

Executives, however, generally solve it by chucking a bunch of workers under the bus and pick up a bonus for doing what everyone else does.

 

[VineyIsLORD]

Wow, that's a pretty hysterical reaction.

Entirely accurate actually.

 

[VineyIsLORD]

Yep SW WA. Power Raid pretty much covered it - but his maths doesn't add up. If $50k is 43% of your final wage then your total wage is $116k and before over time is $66k for a 35 hour week, or $36 an hour. $50k for an extra 7 hours a week is $137 an hour. Not sure even the most obstreperous trade union has ever negotiated quadruple time after 35 hours a week...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-12/wa-mine-workers-face-43-per-cent-pay-cut/7503584



Essentially negotiations for a new collective agreement had been going on for a year without resolution. The FWC's decision was that if the union/workers weren't happy with what was offered then they should go on the black coal award, which has left them worse off.

Work with quite a few WA people who seem more or less resigned to, and in some cases even embrace, the boom/bust cycle that exists over there.

It sounds like it might be a case of a national union approach not really fitting with the local conditions. Or it could just be the members in WA asking for substantially more than they can get.

 

[Demosthenes]

The CFMEU and MUA have serious governance problems and are full of crooks. If you can't admit that then your opinions on unions don't hold a lot of water.

Personally I am in favour of unions, but members of certain unions deserve much more professionally run organisations than they currently get.

 

[Power Raid]

Workers, salesmen, executives, teachers, politicians... everyone takes credit for the good times and blames conditions out of their control for bad times.

Executives, however, generally solve it by chucking a bunch of workers under the bus and pick up a bonus for doing what everyone else does.

I'd suggest most businesses and individuals with those businesses, exist like most individuals. they do their best but in reality just progress from one challenge to the next.

Further your view highlights we need to fix our IR and link employees to the performance of businesses rather than just trading time.

 

[pugsville]

I'd suggest most businesses and individuals with those businesses, exist like most individuals. they do their best but in reality just progress from one challenge to the next.

Further your view highlights we need to fix our IR and link employees to the performance of businesses rather than just trading time.

+
only makes sense if the employees are given stake in ownership. you employ labour it;s your job to make it work, you get the profits from the performance of the business. employers are not committed to the long term interests of their employees. it's illogical to think the reverse should exist.

-

 

[Scotland]

Work with quite a few WA people who seem more or less resigned to, and in some cases even embrace, the boom/bust cycle that exists over there.

It sounds like it might be a case of a national union approach not really fitting with the local conditions. Or it could just be the members in WA asking for substantially more than they can get.

It is what it is. If you work in mining or agriculture you don't really have any say in it. You take the good with the bad. Other industries tend to get the flow on effects. The boom/bust (historically boom/plateau) real estate cycle is what affects most people.

The Collie case is a little from column A, a little from column B. Coal mining isn't big in WA, the mines only exist to service the power stations and some local industry. It's not like iron ore with a huge export market where every 5 years every man and his dog is rushing to open new mines, it's pretty slow and steady. But workers who live in the SW working for coal miners going broke still want the perks of those working in the Pilbara. Clearly overestimated their bargaining position.

 

[Freo Big Fella]

Coal's problem is the same as iron ore - the set-up is pretty infrastructure intensive and specialised, but the actual mining doesn't take an enormous amount of skilled labour. These guys can't jump straight over to a gold or nickel mine the way they could with an iron ore mine.

The present EBA is a hangover from when they had to pay big to stop the drain of workers up north. The money simply isn't justifiable now.

 

[Chief]

I'd suggest most businesses and individuals with those businesses, exist like most individuals. they do their best but in reality just progress from one challenge to the next.

Further your view highlights we need to fix our IR and link employees to the performance of businesses rather than just trading time.

Link employers to the performance (satisfaction, standard of living, education of children) of employees.

Too complex. People in power too self-centered.

Use the tax system?

 

[Power Raid]

+
only makes sense if the employees are given stake in ownership. you employ labour it;s your job to make it work, you get the profits from the performance of the business. employers are not committed to the long term interests of their employees. it's illogical to think the reverse should exist.

-

That exactly where I think we need to go. It aligns the interest of the business with employees by offering equity.

It also makes tax evasion and transfer pricing harder with eyes and ears on the ground.

 

[VineyIsLORD]

The CFMEU and MUA have serious governance problems and are full of crooks. If you can't admit that then your opinions on unions don't hold a lot of water.

Personally I am in favour of unions, but members of certain unions deserve much more professionally run organisations than they currently get.

We've had absolute proof that this is in fact, not true. By way of a multi-million dollar royal commission that found no systemic corruption within the union movement.

Nobody cares what you're in favour of. You're either a member or you're not, and you hold an opinion on unions that is categorically proven to be bullshit.

 

[Demosthenes]

Haha, so corruption is widespread and deep seated, but not systemic? That's some impressive hair-splitting.

Stop embarrassing yourself.

 

[VineyIsLORD]

Haha, so corruption is widespread and deep seated, but not systemic? That's some impressive hair-splitting.

Stop embarrassing yourself.

Except the RC did not show that corruption was widespread or deep seated (those words mean the same thing in this context btw, stop tying to flesh out your posts - they still have no substance) so you are in fact, yodelling directly from your sphincter.

 

[Demosthenes]

'Widespread and deep seated' is a direct quote from the commissioner. The two words do in fact have separate meanings, as I'd have thought most primates capable of operating a keyboard would be aware. One refers to incidence and the other refers to entrenchment.

Again, stop embarrassing yourself.

 

[VineyIsLORD]

'Widespread and deep seated' is a direct quote from the commissioner. The two words do in fact have separate meanings, as I'd have thought most primates capable of operating a keyboard would be aware. One refers to incidence and the other refers to entrenchment.

Again, stop embarrassing yourself.

The commissioner that then presented evidence resulting in a single charge against one person?

Heydon is a Liberal party donor and stooge, an arch conservative and a complete piece of s**t.

He can say deep seated and widespread all he likes, if his evidence is $90m for a single charge over a minor case of corruption, then he (like you) is completely misinformed at best (but he isn't misinformed, he is just absolutely corrupt).

Show me the actual evidence of widespread corruption in the CFMEU ad MUA. Not the opinion of a conservative fossil who needs to be strung up.

Also, you should actually quote my posts when you reply so I can tell that you've replied. Unless you're hiding.

 

[Demosthenes]

Quoting you would only force people to read your drivel twice.

Royal Commissions aren't designed to generate prosecutions. They're designed to identify problems and recommend a way to fix them.

If you think that the RC exonerated the unions because it didn't put a bunch of crooks in gaol, you're an extremely deluded young man who doesn't understand the legal system.

 

[VineyIsLORD]

Quoting you would only force people to read your drivel twice.

Royal Commissions aren't designed to generate prosecutions. They're designed to identify problems and recommend a way to fix them.

If you think that the RC exonerated the unions because it didn't put a bunch of crooks in gaol, you're an extremely deluded young man who doesn't understand the legal system.

Show me the corruption then. Show me how the problem of widespread corruption was identified.

Justice Heydon being a McCarthyist does not count as evidence.

You could edit my quoted posts a bit, so that others wouldn't see them twice. That way I would still get notified.

Or you could PM me and let me know when you reply. Either way is fine.