Society/Culture Why I blame Islam for the fact it's raining today....

[Brunswick Trap King]

The Pew Research has other questions that are often ignored. Worth a read if you have the time.
Distrust of their government is much more popular than support for terrorist acts.

It was pretty fascinating. It was quite shocking to see how high a percentage of Muslims who support sharia also support the execution of apostates.

It's something I just can't even fathom.

 

[Malifice]

It was pretty fascinating. It was quite shocking to see how high a percentage of Muslims who support sharia also support the execution of apostates.

It's something I just can't even fathom.

Its abhorrent I agree. The religion needs a major reform (like what happened with Christianity). A moderate Caliph would work wonders. No easy task though.

 

[Number37]

It was pretty fascinating. It was quite shocking to see how high a percentage of Muslims who support sharia also support the execution of apostates.

It's something I just can't even fathom.

Go to a country like Jordan where the locals will tell you don't insult the King in public. There is a real fear of government.
If some guy knocks on their door and asks them a question that is effectively asking if they agree with the current law of the land, what do you think they are going to say? Far too much is read into the Pew Research.

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

Its abhorrent I agree. The religion needs a major reform (like what happened with Christianity). A moderate Caliph would work wonders. No easy task though.

It couldn't work though, could it?

Considering Islam is splintered into different sects. If Sunnis don't believe Shiites are Muslims and vice versa, it just won't happen unless it's separate.

I think it's got less to do with needing a reformation and more to do with increasing the levels of education in the poorer Islamic nations.

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

Go to a country like Jordan where the locals will tell you don't insult the King in public. There is a real fear of government.
If some guy knocks on their door and asks them a question that is effectively asking if they agree with the current law of the land, what do you think they are going to say? Far too much is read into the Pew Research.

Why did you just tell someone to read it then?

 

[Number37]

Why did you just tell someone to read it then?

It is worth reading but not the be all like it is made out.

If you polled people after the Lindt seige how many would have said Muslims are bad? How would have said ban Islam?
At the last election what percentage of the vote did One Nation get?
Add that to votes for the other ultra right wing parties.
Add in the ultra right wingers who vote LNP.
You would end up with enough people supporting bad ideas that it would also raise some alarm bells in ordinary folk.

 

[Malifice]

It couldn't work though, could it?

Considering Islam is splintered into different sects. If Sunnis don't believe Shiites are Muslims and vice versa, it just won't happen unless it's separate.

I think it's got less to do with needing a reformation and more to do with increasing the levels of education in the poorer Islamic nations.

The Pew report actually found a much stronger corellation with acceptance of violence and low human development than with any corellation with religion.

The USA again being the outlier.

A very strong argument can be made that increasing human development reduces the risk of violent extremism. I'm also reminded of the democratic peace theory (democracies dont go to war with each other) for a related concept.

 

[Malifice]

It is worth reading but not the be all like it is made out.

If you polled people after the Lindt seige how many would have said Muslims are bad? How would have said ban Islam?
At the last election what percentage of the vote did One Nation get?
Add that to votes for the other ultra right wing parties.
Add in the ultra right wingers who vote LNP.
You would end up with enough people supporting bad ideas that it would also raise some alarm bells in ordinary folk.

I dont know If I would lump One Nation supporters in with IS mate. Both demonstrate very conservative right wing views, but few One nation supporters advocate death to party defectors (although many right wingers do indeed advocate death to 'white anting leftists') or tossing homosexuals off buildings (although I dare say a vast majority support the death penalty for other things).

If we can be critical of One Nation and Far Right wing numpties (and we can be) that same criticism (and more) can be levelled at IS and its supporters.

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

The Pew report actually found a much stronger corellation with acceptance of violence and low human development than with any corellation with religion.

The USA again being the outlier.

A very strong argument can be made that increasing human development reduces the risk of violent extremism. I'm also reminded of the democratic peace theory (democracies dont go to war with each other) for a related concept.

To be fair, it would be a pretty obvious suggestion that a lack of education/low HDI is the biggest perpetrator of a lot of these problems.

I'm too lazy to be bothered going through statistics, but it's also been raised somewhere that Syria has a ridiculously low percentage of suitable education. If this is the case in Syria, I'll extrapolate that to the majority of Middle Eastern and African nations. Considering that poverty/low education is also more likely to create criminals in Australia, it's hardly surprising.

I guess where we vary is that I think that Wahhabi/Salafi Islam provide an easy and suitable vehicle for the disenfranchised to wreak havoc where possible. Or perhaps, I'm less inclined to take the chance that proponents of those more radical derivatives will cause future issues in Australia.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

I think it's got less to do with needing a reformation and more to do with increasing the levels of education in the poorer Islamic nations.

I agree 100%.

The problem is drawing out functional societies out of a region that has been a pawn for the past century.

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

I agree 100%.

The problem is drawing out functional societies out of a region that has been a pawn for the past century.

How do you give proper aid to areas where the money just goes to dictators/terrorist groups/etc anyway?

 

[Malifice]

I guess where we vary is that I think that Wahhabi/Salafi Islam provide an easy and suitable vehicle for the disenfranchised to wreak havoc where possible.

We dont disagree here at all. Weve seen examples of it happening here already.

I think where we might differ is in what the best method of combating that risk of extremism is.

 

[fleabitten]

I'm against all those things as well. However, I don't hate all Americans because of drone strikes in the Middle East, I don't rail against all Chinese because of their govrrnment's actions in the South China Sea, I don't criticise all Russians because of events in Crimea and I don't blame all Muslims for ISIS. Wonder if I have enough for my team.

I don't blame individuals either.

 

[Lethality]

About time this lunatic was locked up.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/aug/16/anjem-choudary-convicted-of-supporting-islamic-state

 

[CLUBMEDhurst]

I thought it was a really funny joke.

so did I.

About time this lunatic was locked up.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/aug/16/anjem-choudary-convicted-of-supporting-islamic-state

agreed.

We dont disagree here at all. Weve seen examples of it happening here already.

I think where we might differ is in what the best method of combating that risk of extremism is.

I think the point that's being missed, in all of this survey polling (Total Power is aware of my dislike of this form of research, particularly in the digital age - really struggles to be representative) is who are these homegrown terrorists and how do they become radicalized.

Only then, can we focus on the best solutions to combat this.

From a recent report by the Australian Strategic Policy Institute

Most of those who have become radicalised have had some vulnerability in their lives that made them receptive to extremist ideology. For most, radicalisation tends to take a long time, yet there’s potential for more rapid radicalisation with the level of propaganda that’s now available online. The key vulnerabilities making people more open to extremist ideology include the experience of migration to a country where the person faces marginalisation and racism; a serious criminal past; religious misunderstanding and naivety; failure to find anything but low-level employment, despite holding degrees; and travelling abroad and having direct contact with extremist networks.

https://www.aspi.org.au/publication...adicalisation-in-australia/GenY_jihadists.pdf

These are the folk that are targeted by ISIS' recruiters, who use strategies similar to cults in their grooming of potential recruits.

It's worth noting that Australia's most successful and well reported recruiters, Neal Prakash and Musa Cerantonio were converts to Islam, like many western jihadists.

I posted an article from Haaretz yesterday, on a leaked report which confirms that the majorty of recruits are extremely naive about Islam. Unfortunately this was not commented on by those of an anti-islam bent.

 

[fleabitten]

I'm against all those things as well. However, I don't hate all Americans because of drone strikes in the Middle East, I don't rail against all Chinese because of their govrrnment's actions in the South China Sea, I don't criticise all Russians because of events in Crimea and I don't blame all Muslims for ISIS. Wonder if I have enough for my team.

We're pretty much on the same team, it's just you're not comfortable with how hard I go after Islam. If it helps, I'm usually pretty savage on Christianity and Judaism as well, it's just that Islam is giving us a lot more reasons to condemn it than those others lately.

 

[smokingjacket]

The Pew Research has other questions that are often ignored. Worth a read if you have the time.
Distrust of their government is much more popular than support for terrorist acts.

Yeah I've leafed through a few of them at different times as part of research. You're right, sometimes certain flashy stats leap out and you miss other undercurrents.

 

[Malifice]

I think the point that's being missed, in all of this survey polling (Total Power is aware of my dislike of this form of research, particularly in the digital age - really struggles to be representative) is who are these homegrown terrorists and how do they become radicalized.

Only then, can we focus on the best solutions to combat this.

From a recent report by the Australian Strategic Policy Institute



https://www.aspi.org.au/publication...adicalisation-in-australia/GenY_jihadists.pdf

These are the folk that are targeted by ISIS' recruiters, who use strategies similar to cults in their grooming of potential recruits.

It's worth noting that Australia's most successful and well reported recruiters, Neal Prakash and Musa Cerantonio were converts to Islam, like many western jihadists.

I posted an article from Haaretz yesterday, on a leaked report which confirms that the majorty of recruits are extremely naive about Islam. Unfortunately this was not commented on by those of an anti-islam bent.

Ive been trying to get a discussion on this (radicalisation; how, what, where, why, who?) in the terror thread, but it constantly gets shouted down by our more conservative voices who find it easier just pointing the finger at 'Muslims' without actually discussing the topic.

A valid ani-terrorism strategy has to include adressing why people get radicalised, and intervention at the early stages (or stopping it from happening in the first place).

Later today I might move some of these posts (related to radicalisation and so forth) over to that thread.

 

[CLUBMEDhurst]

Ive been trying to get a discussion on this (radicalisation; how, what where, why?) in the terror thread, but it constantly gets shouted down by our more conservative voices who find it easier just pointing the finger at 'Muslims' without actually discussing the topic.

A valid ani-terrorism strategy has to include adressing why people get radicalised, and getting them at the early stages (or stopping it from happening in the first place).

Later today I might move some of these posts (related to radicalisation and so forth) over to that thread.

Good. I think it's the most important topic in the debate (particularly from an Australian POV).

I'll confess that I thought the threat of a terror attack on Oz soil was overblown, however given that ISIS is on the back foot in the Levant has seen an increase in their strategy of engaging local jihadis, the threat is very real.

If we do not identify the profiles of these potential extremists and the silver-tongued recruiters, we're not going to have much success.

Thankfully we do multicultural integration more effectively than most countries, authorities can work closely with local muslim communities to identify potential problems.

The rise of Hanson and the gathering anti-Islam sentiment in the community will only increase marginalisation of muslims and provide a more fertile ground for the recruiters

 

[fleabitten]

If the majority of Muslims were able to say something like this, I think it would go a long way toward combating radicalization:

The Koran is not a perfect book. It was written for another age and much of it is irrelevant, even damaging, to modern civilization. Many of Muhammed's values may have been an improvement over the values of the warring tribes that he emerged from, but they are immoral by today's standards. Parts of the book are purely superstition, stories to capture the attention of a violent desert people. However, there are other parts that I find truly beautiful and profound. My religion helps me to understand my place in the world and so I choose to identify as a Muslim. I am opposed to any act of violence for any reason and believe every person (including my own children) is free to believe or disbelieve anything they choose and live their life accordingly.


But I think most would already object to the first sentence.

 

[Ruck Machine]

If the majority of Muslims were able to say something like this, I think it would go a long way toward combating radicalization:

The Koran is not a perfect book. It was written for another age and much of it is irrelevant, even damaging, to modern civilization. Many of Muhammed's values may have been an improvement over the values of the warring tribes that he emerged from, but they are immoral by today's standards. Parts of the book are purely superstition, stories to capture the attention of a violent desert people. However, there are other parts that I find truly beautiful and profound. My religion helps me to understand my place in the world and so I choose to identify as a Muslim. I am opposed to any act of violence for any reason and believe every person (including my own children) is free to believe or disbelieve anything they choose and live their life accordingly.


But I think most would already object to the first sentence.

Would you the average Muslim is more fundamental than the average Christian ... I would.

 

[fleabitten]

Would you the average Muslim is more fundamental than the average Christian ... I would.

Probably, partly due to the fact that a higher proportion of Muslims are living in war torn or impoverished parts of the world with less access to a modern education, and partly because you don't hear many Muslims saying anything like my above post (even among "moderates"). They might condemn acts of terrorism, but not many are at all critical of the holy book that inspired the terrorists.

 

[CM86]

If the majority of Muslims were able to say something like this, I think it would go a long way toward combating radicalization:

The Koran is not a perfect book. It was written for another age and much of it is irrelevant, even damaging, to modern civilization. Many of Muhammed's values may have been an improvement over the values of the warring tribes that he emerged from, but they are immoral by today's standards. Parts of the book are purely superstition, stories to capture the attention of a violent desert people. However, there are other parts that I find truly beautiful and profound. My religion helps me to understand my place in the world and so I choose to identify as a Muslim. I am opposed to any act of violence for any reason and believe every person (including my own children) is free to believe or disbelieve anything they choose and live their life accordingly.


But I think most would already object to the first sentence.

What if you changed it to "Most interpretations of the Koran are not perfect"?
Or even "The interpretations of the Koran are not perfect"?

It's their holy book, so it would probably be as hard for many of them to condemn it, as people who follow the Bible.

We still use the Bible to swear into powerful positions of office in Australia.
Do American courts still use the Bible?

As most people have said, religion is bad, and the religion of Islam is the worst. I definitely think the world would be better off without Islam.

 

[fleabitten]

What if you changed it to "Most interpretations of the Koran are not perfect"?
Or even "The interpretations of the Koran are not perfect"?

How about "Parts of the Koran are not perfect"? There are passages that require some pretty intensive re-interpretation to become anything other than disgusting by modern standards.

It's their holy book, so it would probably be as hard for many of them to condemn it, as people who follow the Bible.

I think the majority of Christians that I know would concede that the bible is not perfect and that parts of it are outdated to the point of being immoral. I realise these aren't the same people who are most vocal about Christianity, but there are definitely plenty of Christians just like that. Saying that as a Muslim can be dangerous though.

 

[Lethality]

What if you changed it to "Most interpretations of the Koran are not perfect"?
Or even "The interpretations of the Koran are not perfect"?

Would this mean Muslims are less able to interpret their book than Christians with theirs? Interpretation doesn't seem to be the issue, it's the implications of interpreting a book which contains damaging content. The Qur'an is so literal and so violent and intolerant that it's inevitable that a certain percentage will take a message out of it that is not helpful to our civilization.