Oppo Camp Non-Essendon Thread XI

[Dave]

Not much point going down this particular rabbit hole, Mercurial.

Just smile and nod. And hope to god it doesn't backfire AGAIN, because if it does we all know who to blame.

EFA

 

[Beerfish]

boncer34

 

[Jade]

Whilst I agree that they could be in for a world of hurt in future years through lack of quality youngsters coming in, they did just put Mitchell and Omeara into a midfield that already has Burgoyne, Hodge, Rioli, Shiels, Smith running through it, not to mention Roughy is back who they didn't have last year.

Oooooohhhhhh hold me I'm shaking.....

They are getting older but they have class on every line.

So does just about every side in the league.

They're bog average, and it's insecure supporter base knows it deep down in their little pea hearts...

 

[boncer34]

boncer34

Like he can talk.

 

[Kakkle]

Hawthorn's list really is complete s**t.

Shut up Doss, you know it's true, you just don't wanna say it...

My god you're obsessed.

 

[Jade]

My god you're obsessed.

I'll tell you when I've had enough...

 

[JayJ20]

Hawthorn 2016 is a carbon copy of Geelong 2014. Both had so many close wins to finish in the top 4, before being shown up in the finals and exiting in straight sets.

Geelong missed the finals the year after and I expect Hawthorn to struggle as well.

Then in comes Martin or Fyfe and back to the top 4 they go like Geelong with Dangerfield.

 

[lysp]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-22/afl-considers-changing-bounce-has-no-benefit/8291964

Kennedy is against the bounce, saying it has had implications for the fairness of ruck contests.

"I think there's really no benefit. I think by throwing up and creating an even contest on all occasions is probably the best way for us to go," Kennedy told radio show Sportsday.

Concern around scrapping the bounce in the past has centred around ridding the AFL of one of its most attractive qualities — its randomness.

But Kennedy is worried about the impact on umpires' bodies — something that could affect the standard of officiators rising through the ranks.

The do it at most 30 times per game ffs.

The randomness is a good thing.

 

[Beerfish]

I think we have enough randomness already with the umpiring in general and the mrp.

 

[Jade]

Hawthorn 2016 is a carbon copy of Geelong 2014. Both had so many close wins to finish in the top 4, before being shown up in the finals and exiting in straight sets.

Geelong missed the finals the year after and I expect Hawthorn to struggle as well.

Then in comes Martin or Fyfe and back to the top 4 they go like Geelong with Dangerfield.

And Geelong's list still looks quite brittle.

I'm starting to think these BIG FA signings (yes I know Dangerfield was traded) do more harm than good.

Your list has to be built around a core of elite talent, drafted and developed together.

Hawthorn have taken a total of TWO first round picks in the last SIX drafts. It completely lacks the elite young talent (comparative to other sides) to build a premiership side.

 

[JayJ20]

And Geelong's list still looks quite brittle.

I'm starting to think these BIG FA signings (yes I know Dangerfield was traded) do more harm than good.

Your list has to be built around a core of elite talent, drafted and developed together.

Hawthorn have taken a total of TWO first round picks in the last SIX drafts. It completely lacks the elite young talent (comparative to other sides) to build a premiership side.

Agreed. I don't see either winning a premiership. Sort of like Kevin Sheedy in his last years. They'll beat up on some teams, but won't be able to compete with Bulldogs, GWS, Melbourne and Sydney in the coming years. Expect one or both to drop out of the 8 as competition for spots heats up.

Sydney (although assisted) are taking the better route for sustained success.

 

[Jade]

And Clarkson's 'system' BTW, is currently wearing a Lions polo.

If you took the list they have, and put them in say a West Coast guernsey - they'd be called too old, too slow, and lacking a competitive midfield.

Far too much stock is put in to their recent success when considering how they will go in 2017 and beyond.

 

[Doss]

If we lose in Round 1 you will be banned from ever talking about Hawthorn again.

 

[Jade]

If we lose in Round 1 you will be banned from ever talking about Hawthorn again.

Run at me bro.

 

[Doss]

No.

 

[Jade]

Port Adelaide.

The one word that come to mind is 'lazy'.

On-field, off-field, just a lazy, lazy club.

You want proof? Take Wingard, Hartlett and Wines.

Talented? Sure, all three are - not quite as much as Port fans want to believe, but talented nonetheless.

But would you ever see a bigger collection of me, me, me players in a single club?

It's not a player issue though (not really). You have a Chairman that arsed up the Chinese deal so badly that the AFL had to step in and take the reins.

It's an infection that seeps down through the entirety of the club. From the senior coach, who stubbornly refuses to try and adapt when it's clear that the status quo simply won't work - to it's fans that are as gullible as any in the league.

It'll be back to tarps soon enough - it's fans don't have the stomach for real hardship.

And that's fine by me to be honest, for a bigger (or should I say smaller) minnow club you will never see.

 

[baz_machine]

And Geelong's list still looks quite brittle.

I'm starting to think these BIG FA signings (yes I know Dangerfield was traded) do more harm than good.

Your list has to be built around a core of elite talent, drafted and developed together.

So are you suggesting we don't try and land Fyfe?

 

[Jade]

So are you suggesting we don't try and land Fyfe?

I think we should very quickly pull ourselves out of the race if we have not already done so. Not interested in him or Martin.

 

[BrunoV]

They may have lost some of their stars, but you take any player and put them into Hawthorns System under Clarkson and they seem to play 10-15% better.

Whilst I agree that they could be in for a world of hurt in future years through lack of quality youngsters coming in, they did just put Mitchell and Omeara into a midfield that already has Burgoyne, Hodge, Rioli, Shiels, Smith running through it, not to mention Roughy is back who they didn't have last year.

They are getting older but they have class on every line.


Personally I want them to have a good list, I want them to be in the best condition they can be. A round 1 victory means so much more when you beat a good team rather than a team that is still coasting off past success.

Agree with this. I want rivals to be strong when we beat them.

Hawthorn's list may not not be in particularly good shape, and it probably isn't, but who cares. If they're playing their top 28 they're a really good chance of winning another flag.

Rough is back and O'Meara and Mitchell make them much more powerful around the ball. They still have the best coach and the smartest players.

If injuries strike the wrong players they're cooked but let's worry about that if and when it happens.

I'd take a few years of mediocrity and the excitement of a rebuild, if that's what it comes to, to win a fourth flag in five years.

There is a lot of Month Python "what have the Romans ever done for us" irony in Jade's position on the Hawks. My guess is that Jade understands as much.

 

[baz_machine]

I think we should very quickly pull ourselves out of the race if we have not already done so. Not interested in him or Martin.

apart from selling papers, i doubt either of them are moving anyway

 

[Jade]

apart from selling papers, i doubt either of them are moving anyway

Agreed.

Martin is a bloody good player, but would come at a huge expense and he is NOT the kind of player I want at Essendon; flies in the face of everything we've put together these last few years. A seriously bad influence.

Fyfe is going to be the highest paid player in the league, or close to it. I'd rather concentrate on what we have.

 

[eth-dog]

I think we should very quickly pull ourselves out of the race if we have not already done so. Not interested in him or Martin.

Kelly/Shiel?

 

[BOMBERS 4 LIFE!!!!]

I'm down for removing the bounce just have the umps throw the ball in the air like they do in the basketball.

 

[Mercurial89]

H̶a̶w̶t̶h̶o̶r̶n̶
P̶o̶r̶t̶ ̶A̶d̶e̶l̶a̶i̶d̶e̶

Who's next, maybe Saints?

 

[Jade]

Agree with this. I want rivals to be strong when we beat them.

Hawthorn's list may not not be in particularly good shape, and it probably isn't, but who cares. If they're playing their top 28 they're a really good chance of winning another flag.

Rough is back and O'Meara and Mitchell make them much more powerful around the ball. They still have the best coach and the smartest players.

If injuries strike the wrong players they're cooked but let's worry about that if and when it happens.

I'd take a few years of mediocrity and the excitement of a rebuild, if that's what it comes to, to win a fourth flag in five years.

There is a lot of Month Python "what have the Romans ever done for us" irony in Jade's position on the Hawks. My guess is that Jade understands as much.

Is their best 28 really that good?

I know I take the piss frequently, or speak in hyperbolic terms, but that side is seriously void of a lot of talent.

Ignoring the fact that it's youth stocks would have to be damn near the worst in the league, and just concentrating on its best 22 plus spares, what do they really have?

Quality? Sure, they've got some. Let's start with the obvious quality - it's forward line. Roughead, assuming he plays near his best, is a great key forward. Something that many clubs have. Behind him as tall? Vickery?? Look, I'm not saying a complete turnaround isn't possible, but the bloke is a bloody spud. Has a peak return of 36 goals in a season, and his bad games are utterly putrid. He is the very literal example of a 'less than average' AFL player.

Gunston is a great lead up forward. Don't dispute that at all. Just quality. Sicily looks like he'll be a long term option.

Rioli and Breust are both very good small forwards. Puopolo isn't in the same class, but is still a very good player. Overall, I would suggest that the Hawks still have among the top handful of forward lines in the game.

From there is where the holes are.

It's midfield is wafer thin. So seriously brittle that it almost literally can't afford to lose a single player out of it's starting midfield before it starts to become woefully outmatched by opponents.

Don't get me wrong, I would absolutely have swapped T. Mitchell and O'Meara for S. Mitchell and J. Lewis solely due to the age difference - but to suggest that change could actually make Hawthorn's midfield better in 2017 is stark raving mad.

Hodge is done. I'm sorry, he is. He might throw up the occasional game that is commensurate with his talent and career - but he is finished as a top line player. Burgoyne is class stacked on top of class, but he is NOT a midfield general, he is a player who cuts up sides already having to deal with what was an impressive Hawks midfield. And he's 34.

Smith? Birchall? Both are good players, make no mistake. But EVERY. SINGLE. TEAM. has players of their ilk running around in the middle. They do not (quite rightfully) strike fear in to the hearts of any opponents.

This midfield was already, demonstrably, the worst contested side in the AFL.

If you are an opposition midfield, if the sound of playing Hawthorn doesn't sound like a dinner bell ringing you need to take a serious look at yourself.

Defensively, they were better only than North for finalists in 2016. How does this get better? Where does the improvement come from?

It's not flag capable. It's very best side may not even be finals capable. And the list decisions they've made will make recovery from this condition hard in the next few years.