Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[35Daicos]

I think you are right - Low does look a lot like Mystery Man, who you get a good look at at 15:10 in the last quarter.
http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/7kYAAOSwjXRXbgJi/s-l1600.jpg

I have Whitten as 22 every other season, so also seems likely he was 22 for 1975, or least part of it. Ditto with Smith as 8 or 35

The Football Record for rounds 10 & 15 that year has Whitten as no. 22 on the complete list of players page (he wasn't named in the actual lineup). However, Smith is shown with 8 in the round 7, 14, 17, 19 and 21 Records. One of the commentators didn't know who Smith was, so I presume they weren't expecting him to be in no. 35 in the game against Footscray.

 

[*Paul*]

I think I will give 22 to Whitten, and 35 to Smith for rds 1-2. Seems at some point he eighted up, but perhaps started with 35.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Here's a different sort of record.

In the 2017 stats book (page 695) and previous editions, Hawthorn's Jonathan O'Rourke's grandfather is credited as Richmond's Jack O'Rourke (44 games for 134 goals.)

This article on Jack O'Rourke, who died in 2008, does not mention Jono as Jack's grandson.
http://www.standard.net.au/story/722313/south-honours-legend/

Speaking of the stats book, with the family links section, it never lists uncles, cousins, great-uncles and whatever relation one can find.

 

[35Daicos]

Here's a different sort of record.

In the 2017 stats book (page 695) and previous editions, Hawthorn's Jonathan O'Rourke's grandfather is credited as Richmond's Jack O'Rourke (44 games for 134 goals.)

This article on Jack O'Rourke, who died in 2008, does not mention Jono as Jack's grandson.
http://www.standard.net.au/story/722313/south-honours-legend/

Speaking of the stats book, with the family links section, it never lists uncles, cousins, great-uncles and whatever relation one can find.

I think you may well be on the money with this:-

Basil O'Rourke (who also played for Richmond) was the brother of Jack (their father Jack also played VFL football). He died about a week ago, and did have a grandson named Jonathan:- http://tributes.heraldsun.com.au/notice/384992040/view

O'ROURKE. Basil Joseph. 27.01.1930 - 03.03.2017 Loved son of Jack and Beryl and brother of Jack (all dec. ). Dearly loved and loving husband of Elizabeth, much loved and devoted father and father-in- law of Stephen and Michelle, Peter, John and Trish, Matthew and Jane, Anne and Michael, Meaghan and Adrian. Dearest Grandpa of Laura and Jonathan; Anthony; James, Timothy and Lucy; Grace, Patrick and Abbey; Daniel, Leila, Phebe and Emma; Olivia, Sarah, Isabel and Joshua.

AustralianFootball.com has Frank O'Rourke (Carlton and Fitzroy) as the brother of Jack senior. Brothers Max (Richmond) and Ron Evans (Richmond and Hawthorn) were cousins of Basil and Jack O'Rourke and also played VFL football. John O'Rourke, a nephew of Jack is on the board at Richmond.

There's what is obviously a family photo here, and it does appear that Jonathan O'Rourke has a sister named Laura (see comments), which would make it extremely likely that he was the grandson of Basil:-



rbartlett may be able to shed some light on this.

 

[35Daicos]

Just for good measure here's something that was posted regarding Jonathan O'Rourke on another forum back in 2012. It refers to an article from the AFL website (the link no longer works) that said Basil O'Rourke was the player's grandfather:- https://www.yellowandblack.com.au/community/threads/2012-draft-thread.89286/page-29

Like this bit from the article on O'Rourke

http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/149882/default.aspx

There's some football genes in the family that might explain O'Rourke's talent.

Stephen's dad (and Jonathan's grandfather) is Basil O'Rourke, who played four games for Richmond in 1951. Basil's brother, Jack, was a star for the Tigers in 44 games between 1949-53, kicking 134 goals.

Jack was a high-flying full forward, with charisma and an accurate kick. He would have had a much longer career, but chose to leave the club after it had sacked his favourite coach, Jack Dyer, at the end of 1952. O'Rourke played only a few games under Dyer's successor before giving the game away at 25. Jack's father Jack Snr. also played 63 games in the 1920s for St Kilda and Fitzroy.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Are either of Cameron Sinclair or Col Hutchison or other AFL stats people on Twitter?

Wow!
How about Jono's great-uncle's loyalty to Captain Blood?

I like it.

 

[35Daicos]

Are either of Cameron Sinclair or Col Hutchison or other AFL stats people on Twitter?

Wow!
How about Jono's great-uncle's loyalty to Captain Blood?

I like it.

I'm not sure, I think they had an AFL Statistics account a few years back but stopped using it for some reason. You can send an email to Michael Lovett (editor of the season guide):- http://www.afl.com.au/afl-hq/afl-season-guide-updates

As long as you do that they'll be able to look into it and get it sorted out, as it does now seem certain that they need to correct this. I'm not sure how they would have ended up with Jack rather than Basil named as the grandfather, especially as there was the article on the AFL website which named Basil.

Edit:- The last entry was about 4 years ago for the AFL Statisticians/AFLStatsGuys:-

https://twitter.com/aflstatsguys?lang=en

 

[the croucher]

I think the AFL (especially History dept) need to backtrack on a decision made in 2007.

Jack Jones (Essendon), Wayne Closter & Joe Sellwood (Geelong) were inducted into the VFL/AFL "200 Club" even though their career tally of senior games (club and/or representative) as player, coach, umpire had not reached 200. They were elevated because they had "suffered significant interruptions to their career due to war/active service."

In the last few weeks I have been researching the list of players to see if there were others who ought to have been added to the list due to the same considerations. There are at least 18 such players, some who played less than 140 club games, but served three or four years during World War One or World War Two. In such cases, the player's club played between 60 to 90 games while they were away, thus they clearly appear to have artificially reached the 200 mark in the same way that Jones, Closter and Sellwood are so regarded.

Personally, I don't think any of them including the three now included in the 200 Club should be listed. If your tally of games does not meet the criteria, then however unfortunate the circumstances, you should not be on the list.

For your general interest, and to explain an update to my earlier post:
In recent months I've been using Trove, and armed service records, to research in even more detail the number of players who appear to have had their VFL career delayed or shortened by time in war/national service. As a result, the number involved has been slightly reduced and is now 15 extra names, not 18 as I first thought.

Anyway, the Carlton FC website has today published an article written by Tony De Bolfo relating to my research,
particularly focussing on Fred Davies. The list of players (from a number of different clubs) is shown at the end of the article.
http://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/2017-03-14/200-club-push-for-mulga-baxter-and-bob

 

[Gibbsy]

For your general interest, and to explain an update to my earlier post:
In recent months I've been using Trove, and armed service records, to research in even more detail the number of players who appear to have had their VFL career delayed or shortened by time in war/national service. As a result, the number involved has been slightly reduced and is now 15 extra names, not 18 as I first thought.

Anyway, the Carlton FC website has today published an article written by Tony De Bolfo relating to my research,
particularly focussing on Fred Davies. The list of players (from a number of different clubs) is shown at the end of the article.
http://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/2017-03-14/200-club-push-for-mulga-baxter-and-bob

I agree with the point about about not handing it out regardless of circumstances, but I guess once you start you can't go back. The Sellwood one in particular seemed to be timed around being the Cats' 07 success/being awarded before his death/another J Selwood in fame.

May as well keep it consistent if they're going to be lenient.

 

[the croucher]

I agree with the point about about not handing it out regardless of circumstances, but I guess once you start you can't go back. The Sellwood one in particular seemed to be timed around being the Cats' 07 success/being awarded before his death/another J Selwood in fame.

May as well keep it consistent if they're going to be lenient.

Oh I don't know about that. Acknowledge a mistake was made - rectify it in a positive way by identifying the "career reduced by war" players in their own special paragraph at the end of, but separate from, the 200 Club list.

And as far as Sellwood goes, yes, I think you are spot on regarding the timing and context of the announcement. Sadly in the light of what has happened, I don't think he should ever have been listed anyway. He didn't serve in any of the armed services, and other claims about him seem false to me:

The following statement appears in the 2007 AFL annual report on page 60:
"Sellwood played in 181 games for Geelong and Victoria from 1930-45, albeit that Geelong withdrew from the VFL competition for two full seasons in 1942-43. He also worked in essential industry during World War II, further reducing his playing availability in 1939-41 and 1944-45."

"..further reducing his playing availability in 1939-41.." !!
1939 - Sellwood played 15 of 18 matches - Geelong's season had finished before WW2 was declared so ref to that season is irrelevant.
1940 - Sellwood missed just one match - due to influenza, see The Argus 19 July 1940 p14
1941 - Sellwood played every match of the season so his playing availability was unaffected by essential services work.

"..further reducing his playing availability in … 1944-45." !!
1944 - Sellwood missed first seven matches - he had injured his back in training before the season began; see The Argus 10 April p8, it was even considered possible he'd have to retire, once he recovered he then played the remaining 11 matches so his absence has nothing to do with being kept away due to essential services.
1945 - Sellwood played first match, injured his back again, quickly announced his retirement see The Argus 7 May 1945 p12. So his absence for remainder of the season has nothing to do with essential services work.

"..Geelong withdrew from the VFL competition for two full seasons in 1942-43."
The VFL agreed to allow Geelong players temporary permits to play with metropolitan clubs.
Joe Sellwood was one of 31 players who played a senior game for Geelong in the 1941 season. He did not take up a temporary permit in 1942-43. However, 18 of his team-mates who played in 1941 did go and play with other clubs in the VFL. A number of them then returned to play, as Sellwood did, with Geelong in 1944 when the club resumed.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

I was looking at Jack Hassett (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Hassett) trying to determine if the Hassett who played for Port Melbourne in 1899-1901 was the same person. I think that it was the same person, but that the current birth / death dates for this player are incorrect.

The current dates are those for John Joseph Hassett born in Richmond, Victoria on 4 October 1880 to Patrick Hassett and Mary Ann Booth. He moved to W.A. in 1899, taking up a position in the railways, marrying in 1901 and fathering six children (all born in W.A.) He died in Maylands in Perth on 19 August 1956 (death record list parents as Patrick Hassett and Mary Ann Booth). His work records on Ancestry make it clear he was not in Victoria between 1899 and 1910.

The Jack Hassett who played for Port Melb, South Melb and Geelong was someone else. My guess is he was John Joseph Hassett born in 1880 in Geelong to John James Hassett and Honora (Nora) Mulcahy. This Jack Hassett died on 9 Sep 1942 in Liverpool, New South Wales.

In 1899 he joined Port Melbourne from the Marylebone club in Geelong (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article165312583) After playing 13 games that year he “went shearing” and missed the final six rounds. He played a few more games in the first half of the 1900 season before leaving Port to play with Barwon in the Geelong league (along with Port team mate Harry Pears who later played with Collingwood)

He was apparently something of a “character” with news articles describing arrests for public gambling (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article197256581), drunkenness and assault (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article199389203).

In 1902 he joined South Melbourne, described as being from Geelong (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article165172816) and with a permit from Port (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article9080456). He quickly established himself as a leading player but after four years at South sought a return to Port Melbourne (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article164433428). His permit application was refused and he spent a year playing in Broken Hill before joining Geelong in 1907.

He later enlisted to serve in World War I (http://discoveringanzacs.naa.gov.au/browse/person/195634) but according to Harder Than Football was “discharged one month after enlisting in Sept 1914 for being AWOL. Nine years later his family were still unable to locate him”

 

[35Daicos]

The Jack Hassett who played for Port Melb, South Melb and Geelong was someone else. My guess is he was John Joseph Hassett born in 1880 in Geelong to John James Hassett and Honora (Nora) Mulcahy. This Jack Hassett died on 9 Sep 1942 in Liverpool, New South Wales.

In 1899 he joined Port Melbourne from the Marylebone club in Geelong (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article165312583) After playing 13 games that year he “went shearing” and missed the final six rounds. He played a few more games in the first half of the 1900 season before leaving Port to play with Barwon in the Geelong league (along with Port team mate Harry Pears who later played with Collingwood)

This fellow played for Geelong (in 1883?) and years later was involved with the Marylebone club, so it would fit that he was the father of "your" Jack Hassett:-

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/165404643 (Geelong Advertiser 16 Sep 1919)

Mr. John James Hassett, known for many years in Geelong sporting circles as "Shambo," died yesterday. In 189? the late Mr. Hassett was secretary of the Marylebone football club when they won the junior football premiership from the Wellington club on the Geelong Oval. The match was umpired by the late Mr. J. J. Trait. The team included Messrs. Jas. D'Helin, J. Conway, Henry Young, A. Thompson, W. De Gruchy and R. S. Houston. Mr. Hassett played with the Geelong team in 18?3 when it was captained by Mr. Jas. Wilson. Teams in those days consisted of twenty players, four men in the ruck and one rover.

 

[the croucher]

I was looking at Jack Hassett (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Hassett) trying to determine if the Hassett who played for Port Melbourne in 1899-1901 was the same person. I think that it was the same person, but that the current birth / death dates for this player are incorrect.

The current dates are those for John Joseph Hassett born in Richmond, Victoria on 4 October 1880 to Patrick Hassett and Mary Ann Booth. He moved to W.A. in 1899, taking up a position in the railways, marrying in 1901 and fathering six children (all born in W.A.) He died in Maylands in Perth on 19 August 1956 (death record list parents as Patrick Hassett and Mary Ann Booth). His work records on Ancestry make it clear he was not in Victoria between 1899 and 1910.

The Jack Hassett who played for Port Melb, South Melb and Geelong was someone else. My guess is he was John Joseph Hassett born in 1880 in Geelong to John James Hassett and Honora (Nora) Mulcahy. This Jack Hassett died on 9 Sep 1942 in Liverpool, New South Wales.

In 1899 he joined Port Melbourne from the Marylebone club in Geelong (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article165312583) After playing 13 games that year he “went shearing” and missed the final six rounds. He played a few more games in the first half of the 1900 season before leaving Port to play with Barwon in the Geelong league (along with Port team mate Harry Pears who later played with Collingwood)

He was apparently something of a “character” with news articles describing arrests for public gambling (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article197256581), drunkenness and assault (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article199389203).

In 1902 he joined South Melbourne, described as being from Geelong (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article165172816) and with a permit from Port (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article9080456). He quickly established himself as a leading player but after four years at South sought a return to Port Melbourne (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article164433428). His permit application was refused and he spent a year playing in Broken Hill before joining Geelong in 1907.

He later enlisted to serve in World War I (http://discoveringanzacs.naa.gov.au/browse/person/195634) but according to Harder Than Football was “discharged one month after enlisting in Sept 1914 for being AWOL. Nine years later his family were still unable to locate him”

Well done. I think you have it spot on as far as which Hassett was which. The chap who dies in NSW must have a death date fraction earlier than 9 Sept 1942 as that is date of his funeral notice.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/a...imits=dateFrom=1942-09-09|||dateTo=1942-09-09

His National Archives WW1 record shows that a Mrs Walker (sister living in Geelong) was looking for him. This again ties in with your details being correct as later on via Trove I've found a Margaret Walker died in Geelong in 1952. Her official death record at the VIC bdm's site shows same parents as the JJ who died in 1942.

As an aside, an earlier curious record - Norah Hassett who died in 1911, her will mentions Margaret, but not JJ !! However, her death notice in the Geelong Advertiser does mention both children.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/149214071

 

[35Daicos]

Well done. I think you have it spot on as far as which Hassett was which. The chap who dies in NSW must have a death date fraction earlier than 9 Sept 1942 as that is date of his funeral notice.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/a...imits=dateFrom=1942-09-09|||dateTo=1942-09-09

His National Archives WW1 record shows that a Mrs Walker (sister living in Geelong) who was looking for him. This again ties in with your details being correct as later on via Trove I've found a Margaret Walker died in Geelong in 1952. Her official death record at the VIC bdm's site shows same parents as the JJ who died in 1942.

As an aside, an earlier curious record - Norah Hassett who died in 1911, her will mentions Margaret, but not JJ !!
VPRS 7591/P0002 unit 464, item 120/742
Nora HASSETT. Date of grant: 26 Jul 1911; Date of death: 27 Jun 1911; Occupation: Married; Residence: Geelong,

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/149214071

7 Sept 1942 from what I've seen, the Public Trustee was trying to track down his relatives, and had that as the DoD.

Edit:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206363442

John Joseph Hassett, late of Liverpool, formerly Redfern, who died on September 7, 1942, or anyone knowing ~~

 

[35Daicos]

The Jack Hassett who played for Port Melb, South Melb and Geelong was someone else. My guess is he was John Joseph Hassett born in 1880 in Geelong to John James Hassett and Honora (Nora) Mulcahy. This Jack Hassett died on 9 Sep 1942 in Liverpool, New South Wales.

He later enlisted to serve in World War I (http://discoveringanzacs.naa.gov.au/browse/person/195634) but according to Harder Than Football was “discharged one month after enlisting in Sept 1914 for being AWOL. Nine years later his family were still unable to locate him”

According to those army records, when he enlisted in September 1914 his age was 35 years and 1 month(s), which should suggest he was born around August 1879.

He joined the Army 10/09/1914 and was discharged 12/10/1914 for going AWOL, and was said to be "Not likely to become an efficient soldier"!

 

[rbartlett]

In Richmond's 1908 Annual Report, under Players for that season, it lists two names that have never appeared on any other official lists.

J Green
W Johnson (note that is separately lists A Johnson (sic) who is Alex Johnston)

If anyone comes across who they are, or why they are on that list, please advise.
Perhaps they were practice match players ? , or players permitted to the club that never played a senior game.

Secondly, from around 1910 til 1985, Richmond's Annual Report constantly listed it's foundation year as 1884.
From 1985 AR it lists it as 1885.
If anyone can find a reason/article of note documenting something in 1884 please advise. Or if they could offer any insight as to why 1884 was selected, not 1885 please advise. (no minute book exists for those years)

 

[35Daicos]

Williamstown Chronicle 23 May 1908 says of the Brighton vs Williamstown VFA clash from 16 May 1908 "The Age was the only "daily" that gave
the correct scores of the match at Brighton. The Argus quoted the Herald's figures (8-10 to 6-11,) which were wrong."

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/69700312

The Age has Williamstown 8.12 60 to Brighton 6.10 46:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/197333478

It says (in a couple of places) the winners scored 5.3 to 0 in the last quarter.

VFA Results and Tables has Williamstown 8.10 58 to Brighton 6.11 47 (with 5.1 to 0.1 in the 4th qtr.). There's also a discrepancy with the 1/2 time score of Williamstown (2.5 / 2.3):- http://www.thegapchessclub.org.au/vfa/ww/1908.htm

The Australasian has scores that match those on the above website yet it also says "Williamstown, who added 5-3 to nothing after the last change of ends."
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/139200165

This is certainly worth looking into. VFA1877

 

[Gibbsy]

Williamstown Chronicle 23 May 1908 says of the Brighton vs Williamstown VFA clash from 16 May 1908 "The Age was the only "daily" that gave
the correct scores of the match at Brighton. The Argus quoted the Herald's figures (8-10 to 6-11,) which were wrong."

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/69700312

The Age has Williamstown 8.12 60 to Brighton 6.10 46:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/197333478

It says (in a couple of places) the winners scored 5.3 to 0 in the last quarter.

VFA Results and Tables has Williamstown 8.10 58 to Brighton 6.11 47 (with 5.1 to 0.1 in the 4th qtr.). There's also a discrepancy with the 1/2 time score of Williamstown (2.5 / 2.3):- http://www.thegapchessclub.org.au/vfa/ww/1908.htm

The Australasian has scores that match those on the above website yet it also says "Williamstown, who added 5-3 to nothing after the last change of ends."
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/139200165

This is certainly worth looking into. VFA1877

This is cool, how did you come across it?

 

[35Daicos]

This is cool, how did you come across it?

Just a fluke! I was trying to find something about the 'unknown' Richmond players from 1908 (see Rhett's post above mine) and I happened to spot it.

 

[35Daicos]

In Richmond's 1908 Annual Report, under Players for that season, it lists two names that have never appeared on any other official lists.

J Green
W Johnson (note that is separately lists A Johnson (sic) who is Alex Johnston)

If anyone comes across who they are, or why they are on that list, please advise.
Perhaps they were practice match players ? , or players permitted to the club that never played a senior game.

T. Johnson (half-back; Lancefield and Carlton) gets a mention for having played well in a practice match for Richmond early in 1908. A. Johnson is also named.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10659500 (21 April 1908)

 

[35Daicos]

Williamstown Chronicle 23 May 1908 says of the Brighton vs Williamstown VFA clash from 16 May 1908 "The Age was the only "daily" that gave the correct scores of the match at Brighton. The Argus quoted the Herald's figures (8-10 to 6-11,) which were wrong."

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/69700312

The Age has Williamstown 8.12 60 to Brighton 6.10 46:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/197333478

I've heard from the folks behind the VFA Results and Tables and AustralianFootball websites and they have altered the final scores for this game:-
http://www.thegapchessclub.org.au/vfa/ww/1908.htm
http://australianfootball.com/seasons/season/vfa/193/premiership%2Bseason/8/8/1908#round-4

 

[Harry Hook]

In Richmond's 1908 Annual Report, under Players for that season, it lists two names that have never appeared on any other official lists.

J Green
W Johnson (note that is separately lists A Johnson (sic) who is Alex Johnston)

If anyone comes across who they are, or why they are on that list, please advise.
Perhaps they were practice match players ? , or players permitted to the club that never played a senior game.

Secondly, from around 1910 til 1985, Richmond's Annual Report constantly listed it's foundation year as 1884.
From 1985 AR it lists it as 1885.
If anyone can find a reason/article of note documenting something in 1884 please advise. Or if they could offer any insight as to why 1884 was selected, not 1885 please advise. (no minute book exists for those years)

It's funny. There are references to a Richmond 20 as early as 1871:

Weekly Times 29 July 1871

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article220406552

But this seems to be a junior team.

There seems to be some interrelationship with University in this. Both Richmond and University were admitted together and there seems to have been some competitiveness between the two.

University seem to have had a meeting in November 1884 to establish a senior team:

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article6061824

Notice the reference to the richmond cricket club curator.

There is nothing about Richmond at this time.

Then lo and behold Richmond decide to have a senior team 3 months later, specifically, 20 February 1885.

The Argus

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article137599437

So we have the seeds of competition at this early stage. Maybe Richmond wanted to fudge the year, given only 3 months was involved like 2 twins, one being born at 11.59 December 31 and another being born at 12.01 1 January and the date of the later being wheeled back.

Certainly the Richmond soccer (ie English Football) club was started in 1884

Argus 13 March 1884
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article11848271
But even as late as 1954, the press was still saying 1884 for the Richmond Australian Rules side

The Argus 16 July 1954
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article70699750


Confusing the issue is that in 1884 an Anglo Australian Football Association was created to which Richmond sent a delegate:

Age 22 March 1884

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article198555138

However the VFA was started in 1877 in May

cf Ovens and Murray advertiser

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article198228568


Richmond were admitted to the VFA (the 1877 VFA not the 1884 VFA) in March 1885 as were University in the same year.

The Argus 30 March 1885
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article6073217

The Australasian got it right in 1940

cf Australasian 8 June 1940

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article141822275

Note the confirmation of the earlier Richmond and the reference to Richmond being created in 1885.

So there you have it. In my opinion, slack historians, mixed with a lack of available resources, a lack of contemporary records, data or writings and confusion over the nomenclature of the leagues led to the mistake.

Eventually someone did the research.

 

[barrackers]

It's funny. There are references to a Richmond 20 as early as 1871:

Weekly Times 29 July 1871

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article220406552

But this seems to be a junior team.

There seems to be some interrelationship with University in this. Both Richmond and University were admitted together and there seems to have been some competitiveness between the two.

University seem to have had a meeting in November 1884 to establish a senior team:

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article6061824

Notice the reference to the richmond cricket club curator.

There is nothing about Richmond at this time.

Then lo and behold Richmond decide to have a senior team 3 months later, specifically, 20 February 1885.

The Argus

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article137599437

So we have the seeds of competition at this early stage. Maybe Richmond wanted to fudge the year, given only 3 months was involved like 2 twins, one being born at 11.59 December 31 and another being born at 12.01 1 January and the date of the later being wheeled back.

Certainly the Richmond soccer (ie English Football) club was started in 1884

Argus 13 March 1884
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article11848271
But even as late as 1954, the press was still saying 1884 for the Richmond Australian Rules side

The Argus 16 July 1954
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article70699750


Confusing the issue is that in 1884 an Anglo Australian Football Association was created to which Richmond sent a delegate:

Age 22 March 1884

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article198555138

However the VFA was started in 1877 in May

cf Ovens and Murray advertiser

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article198228568


Richmond were admitted to the VFA (the 1877 VFA not the 1884 VFA) in March 1885 as were University in the same year.

The Argus 30 March 1885
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article6073217

The Australasian got it right in 1940

cf Australasian 8 June 1940

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article141822275

Note the confirmation of the earlier Richmond and the reference to Richmond being created in 1885.

So there you have it. In my opinion, slack historians, mixed with a lack of available resources, a lack of contemporary records, data or writings and confusion over the nomenclature of the leagues led to the mistake.

Eventually someone did the research.

Looks like 1885 is the correct year

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/137599437

A public meeting was held on Friday, 20th
inst., at Byrne's Royal Hotel, Punt-road,
Richmond, at which a senior football club
was satisfactorily started to represent the
city of Richmond for the ensuring year. As
some of the most prominent members of
other senior clubs have signified their inten
tion of playing, it is anticipated that a good
team will be brought into the field. Sub
scriptions will be received by committee,
treasurer, and secretary.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/137599674

A committee meeting of the Richmond Football
Club was held at Byrne's Hotel, Punt-road, on Thurs
day, 26th ult, when it was decided that the colours
should be all blue with yellow and black sash and cap
to correspond. The tickets for the above club will be
ready in a day or two, when the committee hope to
have good support. As the committee and others are
working very hard, they anticipate bringing a good
good team into the field.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/137599930

RICHMOND SENIOR FOOTBALL CLUB. A gene-
ral meeting of the above dab will be held in
the Temperance-hall, Church-street on Thurs-
day 19th inst, at 8 p.m., when all footballers
and supporters are invited to attend.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/229820228

The Richmond senior club intend holding a
meeting in the Temperance Hall,
Church street, to-morrow. (Thursday), at 8
p.m. when all supporters of the yellow and
black stripes are urged to attend.

 

[Harry Hook]

Looks like 1885 is the correct year

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/137599437



http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/137599674



http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/137599930



http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/229820228

Absolutely. 1885. And University predated them seemingly.

 

[rbartlett]

Thanks gentleman for this.
I'm already aware of previous incarnations of a Richmond Football Club. There are 5.
They are all documented on my tigerlandarchive.org site at the bottom.

As for 1884 foundation year for this current club, I may have to hope that one day we find the minute books from 1885 / or Annual Report to shed light.
Certainly in 1910 it was already being peddled that Richmond were founded in 1884. On reflection it could be simply based off a recollection of James Charles, the first secretary, who was still alive at that time, and perhaps confused his memory by a year.

Cheers
Rhett