Autopsy Heartbreaking loss to St Kilda

[ydraw]

Its what we have, so we have no choice.

Tabs is on the outer and won't ever be given any real chance to develop. First couple of poor games and he's back to Peel, unlike both McCarthy and Kersten. Apeness is injured and might well end up another injury prone player who never worked (hope not though).

We do have a choice though. We have a choice to play Tabs. We just continue to make the wrong choice. And by "we", I mean Ross Lyon.

 

[ydraw]

Fine, where do we get another Pav, only taller?

We don't get another Pav. As I said about 10 posts back, people are eventually going to have to accept that our next key forward won't be as good as Pav, but we still need to play key forwards.

 

[Mudd]

Another one who expects every person we try there to be great at it from day 1.

Completely missing the point.

I think a lot of fans were just spoilt by the Pavlich era and don't see the point of perservering with anyone who isn't as good as Pavlich. Gonna be a long wait for those guys until they see a KPF they're happy with.

These are the same people who complain about our forward 50 entries each week and can't seem to connect the dots.

A large percentage of your forward 50 entries are going to be kicks to a contest under pressure. You need people in the forward line to contest those contests. No team relies purely on hit up passes to leading forwards. It's just not realistic. That's why every football team in the history of football plays key forwards.

I think Richmond are a lot like 2013 Freo, they play 1 key forward who is 195cm, are top 2 in restricting scores against but bottom 6 in scoring themselves.

Not sure if that proves your point or not as they may be even better if they had another quality KPF.

 

[imperial_oz]

We do have a choice though. We have a choice to play Tabs. We just continue to make the wrong choice. And by "we", I mean Ross Lyon.

I agree on Tabs. Check my posting history. I rate him higher than most on here and I'm of the view he should be our tall forward. I also think he should be left in the side like McCarthy and Kersten were and allowed to grow into the job. I think he'd eventually be worth the wait.

Not going happen though

 

[ydraw]

I agree on Tabs. Check my posting history. I rate him higher than most on here and I'm of the view he should be our tall forward. I also think he should be left in the side like McCarthy and Kersten were and allowed to grow into the job. I think he'd eventually be worth the wait.

Not going happen though

Personally I don't care if it's Tabs or Apeness or Uebergang or Dawson or Strnadica. It just has to be someone. It's gone on for too long us trying to compete with no key forwards and it's been a miserable failure.

It's proven that we're a higher scoring side when Tabs plays. That's not because Tabs is a gun. It's because you score more when you play with a proper forward structure.

That is, after all, why forward lines even exist. There's never been a rule that says you have to play a big bloke at Full Forward and another big bloke at CHF. But that's what teams have always done, because it works.

 

[imperial_oz]

I think Richmond are a lot like 2013 Freo, they play 1 key forward who is 195cm, are top 2 in restricting scores against but bottom 6 in scoring themselves.

Not sure if that proves your point or not as they may be even better if they had another quality KPF.

1 KPF generally won't cut it. Needs to have a good 'support' act.

Hawks in the premiership years always had 2 but good marks around them but you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear. Look how Gunston has fallen away trying to shoulder the load. Brilliant as a second tall though

 

[ydraw]

What really shits me is that you need key forwards for the same reason you need key defenders. For the high balls that will inevitably come into the forward line. Ross has always made sure we've had 3 key defenders but has never really cared about making sure we have key forwards.

 

[Admiral Byng]

Part of the problem with bombing it in is that Ross usually allows the opposition play a spare man in defence, so we are always one man short in the forward line. This makes it harder for our average quality forwards to get their hands on the ball either way, a long bomb gets spoiled and mopped up and rebounded, a kick to a leading target often gets intercepted if the opposition have a clever defender who can read the play.

Ross sticks to what he knows. I really want to see him make this sort of radical structural change but I can't see it happening.

 

[wayToGo_]

Another one who expects every person we try there to be great at it from day 1.

Completely missing the point.

I think a lot of fans were just spoilt by the Pavlich era and don't see the point of perservering with anyone who isn't as good as Pavlich. Gonna be a long wait for those guys until they see a KPF they're happy with.

These are the same people who complain about our forward 50 entries each week and can't seem to connect the dots.

A large percentage of your forward 50 entries are going to be kicks to a contest under pressure. You need people in the forward line to contest those contests. No team relies purely on hit up passes to leading forwards. It's just not realistic. That's why every football team in the history of football plays key forwards.

Definitely a candidate for the weirdest logic in a post this season. So we need to play more key forwards so we can kick to contests but we can't complain about our inside 50 entries being kicks in hope when we don't play enough key forwards?

You don't need to make every post an attempt to prove how much of a difference Taberner would make. I think the vast majority of us agree having a more balanced/traditional forward line is where we probably need to head but you can't discount the quality of players in each role has a massive bearing also, nor the quality of our ball movement and our delivery inside 50 (imo even more so). Even when kicking to a contest quite a few of our players don't seem to know how to kick it to give our forwards any advantage/chance.

Hawthorn was dominant with a forward line all less <= 193cm most of the time. The Dogs last year often excelled without a traditional forward line also. You know where both excelled though? Good or fast ball movement, good forward structure and coordinated movement inside 50 and good delivery inside 50. Do you think Josh Kennedy excels more when the ball is bombed inside 50 to a contest or it hits him on the lead? And the same question could be asked for any of the top 10+ key forwards really.

I agree we need someone that can go up and win a strong contest i50, can crash packs and be a physical presence up forward but to prioritise that over better movement and delivery seems weird unless you've never watched how the top teams play the game.

edit - apologies about the Hawks bit, I know they had a ruck/fwd in Hale. Was more about key forwards producing plenty of goals when they aren't 195cm+.

 

[ydraw]

Definitely a candidate for the weirdest logic in a post this season. So we need to play more key forwards so we can kick to contests but we can't complain about our inside 50 entries being kicks in hope when we don't play enough key forwards?

Yes, it's really not that complicated if you aren't actively trying to not understand.

Every team bombs it into forward 50 when they have to. When you are under pressure you have no choice. If you have no key forwards then those bombs are always going to look horrible because they will be mopped up by opposition key defenders. If you do have key forwards, they make a contest, bring the ball to ground and get our crumbers involved.

Not that difficult a concept, surely.

 

[ydraw]

D
Hawthorn was dominant with a forward line all less <= 193cm most of the time.

100% Wrong. Hawthorn in their dominant period had a forward line consisting of Roughhead, Gunston, Franklin and David Hale.

Even after Franklin left, they had Roughhead, Gunston and Hale, and Hale as a resting ruckman was one of the best ruck/forwards going around.

 

[wayToGo_]

Yes, it's really not that complicated if you aren't actively trying to not understand.

Every team bombs it into forward 50 when they have to. When you are under pressure you have no choice. If you have no key forwards then those bombs are always going to look horrible because they will be mopped up by opposition key defenders. If you do have key forwards, they make a contest, bring the ball to ground and get our crumbers involved.

Not that difficult a concept, surely.

And I agreed with that part. But then you went on and had a crack at posters complaining about inside 50 entries. That's the bit that is completely illogical. Sure parking some huge contested marking beast in the goal square might help you win more of those bombs but a vast majority of scores aren't from those. The reason why the top teams score heaps more than us is because they can a) have forwards that lead well, and b) can hit a lead kicking inside 50. Marks inside 50 as opposed to contested marks that are often down field and have little to no impact on scoring.

 

[salim malik]

We have a key forward who was top 20 in the league at contested marks last year and kicking accuracy over 80% and we drop him for 6 weeks every time it rains.

Please stop pretending like we have no options.

Stop pretending that Tabs is a half decent key forward, he is playing seconds for a reason and it isn't because Ross doesn't like him. Tabs is average, Cox an 18 year old after minimal seconds games and 3 senior games is a mile in front of him. Tabs has had 5 seasons to show his worth, please explain where he has shown improvement from his first year to the present.

 

[ydraw]

Do you think Josh Kennedy excels more when the ball is bombed inside 50 to a contest or it hits him on the lead? And the same question could be asked for any of the top 10+ key forwards really.

I agree we need someone that can go up and win a strong contest i50, can crash packs and be a physical presence up forward but to prioritise that over better movement and delivery seems weird unless you've never watched how the top teams play the game.

Who says you're prioritising it over better delivery though?

I agree completely better delivery is great. But that doesn't really change the fact that you still need a forward structure and I don't really see how playing 2 guys who can't take contested marks makes your delivery any better. It's not like we are trying to kick it badly. Sometimes it just happens.

 

[ydraw]

And I agreed with that part. But then you went on and had a crack at posters complaining about inside 50 entries. That's the bit that is completely illogical.

It's not illogical at all though. Our inside 50 entries look terrible in part because we have nobody to kick it to. That isn't really controversial. What are you supposed to do when you look down field and all you see is Cam McCarthy with 2 blokes on him? The only thing you can do is bomb it towards the boundary line and hope for the best.

And that indeed used to be Ross Lyon's strategy. Keep it close to the boundary line, let the whole team run down for the stoppage and hope to kick a goal from it. But if you do that now it's deliberate out of bounds.

 

[meima]

Cox show that he can mark the ball better than Kersten and cam Mac. Thing could be a lot different if Sandi did not injured himself.

 

[ydraw]

Stop pretending that Tabs is a half decent key forward, he is playing seconds for a reason and it isn't because Ross doesn't like him. Tabs is average, Cox an 18 year old after minimal seconds games and 3 senior games is a mile in front of him. Tabs has had 5 seasons to show his worth, please explain where he has shown improvement from his first year to the present.

Tabs first 2 seasons he averaged 1 CM and 0.8, 0.9 goals a game.

2016: 1.8 contested marks, 1.1 goals a game.
2017: 2.2 contested marks, 1.6 goals a game.

Seems to me he's literally gotten better every year, and your posting has gotten worse.

You're right that he's still average. Average is better than nothing though. And our current strategy has given us nothing. We are a higher scoring team when Tabs plays, fact. And the reasons why are obvious and have been repeatedly demonstrated by the last 100 years of the game. Key forwards help you score, which is why everyone plays them.

 

[Admiral Byng]

And that indeed used to be Ross Lyon's strategy. Keep it close to the boundary line, let the whole team run down for the stoppage and hope to kick a goal from it. But if you do that now it's deliberate out of bounds.

Maybe we need to have a an option always leading out to the boundary line just for that kick. Maybe tempt the defenders into doing a deliberate OOB.

 

[salim malik]

Tabs first 2 seasons he averaged 1 CM and 0.8, 0.9 goals a game.

2016: 1.8 contested marks, 1.1 goals a game.
2017: 2.2 contested marks, 1.6 goals a game.

Seems to me he's literally got better every year, and your posting has gotten worse.

He is average, get used to it. Not Tabs fault, he was a rookie spec draft pick for a reason. The tools he has aren't good enough and 5 years haven't improved them despite your attempt to show otherwise. He can't hold a mark at training. Cox will be our KPF , why are you not happy with that.

 

[ydraw]

He is average, get used to it. Not Tabs fault, he was a rookie spec draft pick for a reason. The tools he has aren't good enough and 5 years haven't improved them despite your attempt to show otherwise. He can't hold a mark at training. Cox will be our KPF , why are you not happy with that.

I'm not happy with that because you need 2 of them. We had 1 key forward named Pavlich for the last 5 years and guess what? Our forward line still sucked because 1 is not enough.

Kudos to you though for just keeping on steamrolling with the "hasn't improved" schtick despite his obvious improvement.

 

[wayToGo_]

I agree on Tabs. Check my posting history. I rate him higher than most on here and I'm of the view he should be our tall forward. I also think he should be left in the side like McCarthy and Kersten were and allowed to grow into the job. I think he'd eventually be worth the wait.

Not going happen though

Aarrrggghhh! He played 17 games last season! 15 of those in a row. He only didn't play 4 games. So he was given an opportunity. Out of those he played one amazing game against Brisbane (like he did against Essendon this year). I am so over the whining about how unfair he has been treated. I'm sorry but if you get to play almost an entire season that's only on you if you don't show enough consistency to secure your spot in that time.

 

[salim malik]

I'm not happy with that because you need 2 of them.

Well Tabs is not one of them.

 

[jerms]

Silvagni was tried as a forward for half a season or so. Ditto Alex Pearce for six or so rounds.

Everyone seems to forget he was a 40m kick for goal, at best.

 

[salim malik]

Aarrrggghhh! He played 18 games last season! 15 of those in a row. He only didn't play 4 games. So he was given an opportunity. Out of those he played one amazing game against Brisbane (like he did against Essendon this year). I am so over the whining about how unfair he has been treated. I'm sorry but if you get to play almost an entire season that's only on you if you don't show enough consistency to secure your spot in that time.

You're spot on but it will fall on deaf ears.

 

[ydraw]

Aarrrggghhh! He played 17 games last season! 15 of those in a row. He only didn't play 4 games. So he was given an opportunity. Out of those he played one amazing game against Brisbane (like he did against Essendon this year). I am so over the whining about how unfair he has been treated. I'm sorry but if you get to play almost an entire season that's only on you if you don't show enough consistency to secure your spot in that time.

He did secure his spot last season. Then this season he was dropped for Kersten without playing a game, fought to win his spot back then was dropped again after 3 consecutive games in the wet where none of our forwards did anything.