Gentlemanly discussion on the coaching future of Adam Simpson

[88mph]

I was talking about this year and the top 4 and the Essendon revival orchestrated by Woosha with a team that appears headed for finals..But..

Not sure if you know the history of that time or only 2008 onwards but to compare Hawks is not correct ..

Both 2005 and 2006 were a kick the difference in final scores and to blame Woosha for 2007 is crazy..

Nobody seems to want to blame the Hero who led the brat pack no one sees the difference between solid leaders at the Hawks /Bris that saw a 3 Peat ..

Also Woosha was 2006 and 2011 AFLCA Coach of the year some AChievement which is often forgotten..

We weren't playing against Sydney in 05/06, we were fighting a corrupt AFL system that wanted a premiership in NSW in an attempt to win market share. How Barry Hall didn't get suspended in 05 beggars belief.

 

[Feeling Groovy]

http://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/st...e/news-story/6cb84b60d0e3ab4b04bffc6b7895c97e
Let's assume Clarkson is on $1m per year and we're spending all of the football department spend.
Offering him double would put us over the cap by at least $1m triggering a 200% tax which would be $2m
So paying Clarko double his hawthorn salary would cost us 4 times what Hawthorn are paying him unless we cut other football costs
The AFL has made it hard for financially successful clubs to use it to their advantage

It's a pretty sh#t system when you think about it. The AFL repeatedly props up badly run clubs with priority picks and bail-outs (even when the financial issues are self-induced from sacking coaches) and fails to make the tough decisions about having too many clubs in Vic to be financially viable (not that I want to see any go but it is/has been an issue) and then effectively blocks successful clubs from being able to use the success in any meaningful way. This also impacts on clubs outside Vic more who have no ability to attract the best talent as most footy people do not want to move out of Vic and the one incentive that could be dangled at them (money), is cut off.

 

[The Dodger]

Given the game on the weekend I am pretty happy with his match day coaching. Its still just the imbalanced team selection (which he is a part of) that is the issue. He has our half back & KPD's humming like nobodies business and all due to the fact he knows we are going to get slaughtered in the middle.

So he is aware of the flaws, plans for them but the part the needs to be rectified still is this over belief in a senior group that haven't achieved that much and are out of form.

I still think that with his latest comments re the team in 12 months that Simpson is fighting that battle to get the youth in to the team and think he is the right guy.

But a best 22 from Round 1 2018 I'm hoping looks like this:

Sheppard Barrass Hurn

Cole McGovern Yeo

Jetta Redden Gaff

Venables Vardy Karpany

Lecras Kennedy Darling

NN Shuey Sheed

Lycett Duggan Cripps Nelson

Also with a selection policy to be like for like i.e. Mackenzie only gets a game if Barrass or McGovern or depending on matchups Schofield goes down. Not best player outside of the team needs to come in regardless of who is in. Schofield who has more utility can be considered for smaller roles.

The balance with that team is turning a few HB's into Mids. Cole, Duggan, Nelson & Yeo need to slot in to 2 spots. 2 of them need to become a mid rotation at the very least. Personally think Yeo's game wont translate to the midfield as well as his match winning HB'er role does.

That team offers better run and is much more balanced physically. Lecras on last legs with Rioli to take that position when ready. Stuff off the credits in the bank / runs on the board system past 3-4 poor games from anyone. A month of poor footy should see you in the 2nd's not half a season.

 

[Eagleboy68]

I was talking about this year and the top 4 and the Essendon revival orchestrated by Woosha with a team that appears headed for finals..But..

Not sure if you know the history of that time or only 2008 onwards but to compare Hawks is not correct ..

Both 2005 and 2006 were a kick the difference in final scores and to blame Woosha for 2007 is crazy..

Nobody seems to want to blame the Hero who led the brat pack no one sees the difference between solid leaders at the Hawks /Bris that saw a 3 Peat ..

Also Woosha was 2006 and 2011 AFLCA Coach of the year some AChievement which is often forgotten..

Well aware of the history.

All I'm saying is that if Clarkson or any good coach was our coach from 2002 onwards we wouldn't have lost a gf by 4 points and won one by 1 point.
Both would have been wins by comfortable margins.

Moot point and conjecture and whatifs and all.

I didnt rate woosha as a coach back then. He may have gathered some experience no doubt from those times and is benefitting now from it.
But imo he cost us the 2005 flag. He had the cattle in defence and the midfield to win both premierships and possibly even 2004.

But whatever. It's ancient history and glad we won 2006.

 

[Eagleboy68]

It's not the talent missing at WCE but the mentally weak leadership from the senior players .. Generally speaking when the going gets tough at the Hawks they refuse to bend and more often than not WCE just roll over and lose confidence.

And this stems from the coach/footy department.
Malthouse wouldn't tolerate it. And I've heard stories about him. Jakovich explaining once how after losing the 91 final at home Malthouse ripped into him telling him if he ever plays selfish football again it was career over at the wce.

Simpson mouths the usual bullshit and doesn't do anything.

The players know they can get away with weakness under simmo.

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

And this stems from the coach/footy department.
Malthouse wouldn't tolerate it. And I've heard stories about him. Jakovich explaining once how after losing the 91 final at home Malthouse ripped into him telling him if he ever plays selfish football again it was career over at the wce.

Simpson mouths the usual bullshit and doesn't do anything.

The players know they can get away with weakness under simmo.

I'm guessing Jakovich was telling the story of how the coach behaved behind closed doors long after the event?

 

[Ok Boomer]

I think that the tide is beginning to turn on list regeneration. Slow at the moment but will go quicker and quicker.

 

[Eagleboy68]

I'm guessing Jakovich was telling the story of how the coach behaved behind closed doors long after the event?

Yes lol.

After he retired.

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

Yes lol.

After he retired.

So how can you compare it with what is currently going on behind closed doors between the coach and the players?

 

[Eagleboy68]

So how can you compare it with what is currently going on behind closed doors between the coach and the players?

Oh...it was a click bait...and here's me thinking it was a friendly chat.

It's evident by team selections and his press conference comments.

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

Oh...it was a click bait...and here's me thinking it was a friendly chat.

It's evident by team selections and his press conference comments.

As it was with Jakovich and Malthouse's relationship?

 

[Eagleboy68]

As it was with Jakovich and Malthouse's relationship?

I'm going to need full disclosure on your point prior to answering that question.

I don't know what you mean.
You have my opinion.

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

I'm going to need full disclosure on your point prior to answering that question.

I don't know what you mean.
You have my opinion.

You're comparing Malthouse's relationship with his players in the 1990s to Simpson's current relationship with his players.

Outside of the four walls of the club, very little would have been known of the intricacies of Malthouse's relationship with his players at the time. As evidenced by the story you cited, which occurred in the early 1990s (I think, I've heard it before and I'm pretty sure it was in the very early stages of Jakovich's career) not being public knowledge until after Jakovich retired, which was in 2004.

So I pointed out that we can't actually know what Simpson is saying to players behind closed doors, because it's not public knowledge, so how can you say how he treats players compared with Malthouse?

You said it's evidence in his team selections and press conference comments. I'm wondering how that differs from Malthouse, who famously gave the press absolutely nothing (except Confucius quotes) and never actually dropped Jakovich even once despite what he might have said to him privately about his attitude.

Full enough disclosure?

 

[Matera92]

You're comparing Malthouse's relationship with his players in the 1990s to Simpson's current relationship with his players.

Outside of the four walls of the club, very little would have been known of the intricacies of Malthouse's relationship with his players at the time. As evidenced by the story you cited, which occurred in the early 1990s (I think, I've heard it before and I'm pretty sure it was in the very early stages of Jakovich's career) not being public knowledge until after Jakovich retired, which was in 2004.

So I pointed out that we can't actually know what Simpson is saying to players behind closed doors, because it's not public knowledge, so how can you say how he treats players compared with Malthouse?

You said it's evidence in his team selections and press conference comments. I'm wondering how that differs from Malthouse, who famously gave the press absolutely nothing (except Confucius quotes) and never actually dropped Jakovich even once despite what he might have said to him privately about his attitude.

Full enough disclosure?

To be fair while we didn't drop him, he made him put on gloves and smacked the snot out of him.

Can't see Simmo taking anyone aside and doing that!

 

[Moose1414]

Umm, that's not the point I'm getting at. You know football department also have salary caps right?

They do but unlike player payments you are allowed to exceed the cap, the AFL puts some kind of levy against the extra payments but its by no means significant. They whinge about it all the time on the Collingwood board because they are apparently the richest club in the land and refuse to hire a ruck coach. So far as I am aware no club exceeds the cap, which for the rich clubs who can afford it is just stupid.

 

[Moose1414]

http://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/st...e/news-story/6cb84b60d0e3ab4b04bffc6b7895c97e



Let's assume Clarkson is on $1m per year and we're spending all of the football department spend.

Offering him double would put us over the cap by at least $1m triggering a 200% tax which would be $2m

So paying Clarko double his hawthorn salary would cost us 4 times what Hawthorn are paying him unless we cut other football costs

The AFL has made it hard for financially successful clubs to use it to their advantage

I think its probably about right, ideally the bar would be lower but outside of doing things like poaching the best coach in the land by paying him a ridiculous salary, for the rich clubs its not that big a deal in the scheme of things to have an extra specialist coach or 2, even part timers, taking a salary thats sub 250k. 3 extra coaches on 150k each I'd think would make a big difference on the players and if that means we pay the AFL 350k for an advantage other clubs would not be able to afford why wouldn't you take it? People just don't like paying taxes. You spend money to make money though, success is highly lucrative in the AFL, even for a club like the Eagles there's still room to turn greater success into a healthier bottom line.

 

[eaglesnutcase]

I think that the tide is beginning to turn on list regeneration. Slow at the moment but will go quicker and quicker.

For sure WB.We seem to be seeing a mention of youth/regeneration every time Simmo opens his gob.Just needs to hurry it along.Pity Rioli,Watson and now Venables have had Longer term injuries.Partington will get a run soon probably just on weight of public opinion.

 

[Eagleboy68]

You're comparing Malthouse's relationship with his players in the 1990s to Simpson's current relationship with his players.

Outside of the four walls of the club, very little would have been known of the intricacies of Malthouse's relationship with his players at the time. As evidenced by the story you cited, which occurred in the early 1990s (I think, I've heard it before and I'm pretty sure it was in the very early stages of Jakovich's career) not being public knowledge until after Jakovich retired, which was in 2004.

So I pointed out that we can't actually know what Simpson is saying to players behind closed doors, because it's not public knowledge, so how can you say how he treats players compared with Malthouse?

You said it's evidence in his team selections and press conference comments. I'm wondering how that differs from Malthouse, who famously gave the press absolutely nothing (except Confucius quotes) and never actually dropped Jakovich even once despite what he might have said to him privately about his attitude.

Full enough disclosure?

Well Simpson stated at one point that the poor performance of team twas the senior players weren't pulling their weight. He then went on to drop hill repeatedly even though the senior players weren't performing, such as priddis, Hurn Lecras etc. But refuses to drop them.
He also said there isn't an issue with individuals but the collective. But the collective is made up of the individuals.

Many complaints have been noted around team selection that the likes of Lecras, priddis, Cripps, Hurn and darling didn't warrant selection but regardless of what Simpson says in the media and behind closed doors he continues to play them regardless of form.

More recently Simpson stated that priddis gets selected because he is Matt's priddis and Hurn gets selected because he is the captain and lecras position in the team is not based on goals kicked.

So clearly Simpsons message to the media AND to these chosen players behind closed doors is they can do no wrong as he doesn't drop them regardless of their performances.

Malthouse famously dropped malaxos before the 1990 finals series and he was the captain.
Worsfold dropped wirrpunda in 2006 I believe based on his poor form.

Simpson is yet to drop anyone in the "senior" group.
Whether this is his decision or his hands are tied is irrelevant because it shows weakness both ways.

We continually have problems with our performances. Many people expected us to Conte d for the flag this year, we have lost 3 home games this year and yet the players who performed poorly consistently through that period remain in the side.
Masten was recalled twice after producing nothing in the wafl that merits being recalled.
Need, playing Partington wasn't going to have any less impact than Masten did in the derby.

Whatever your thoughts on selecting him after he hadn't played for a few weeks is irrelevant as it's the pattern with Simpson.
He doesn't have the ability in my opinion to make the big calls.

After our loss to hawthorn matlhouse was quoted saying that the way to stop losses like that from happening continually is to drop senior players. The usual whipping boys in hill and Masten don't count as these senior players in my opinion. The list I cited above are the players that have shown poor performances and gone missing in games continually and don't get dropped.
But Simpson won't do it.

He doesn't have the cojones or the coaching ability in my opinion.

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

Well Simpson stated at one point that the poor performance of team twas the senior players weren't pulling their weight. He then went on to drop hill repeatedly even though the senior players weren't performing, such as priddis, Hurn Lecras etc. But refuses to drop them.
He also said there isn't an issue with individuals but the collective. But the collective is made up of the individuals.

Many complaints have been noted around team selection that the likes of Lecras, priddis, Cripps, Hurn and darling didn't warrant selection but regardless of what Simpson says in the media and behind closed doors he continues to play them regardless of form.

More recently Simpson stated that priddis gets selected because he is Matt's priddis and Hurn gets selected because he is the captain and lecras position in the team is not based on goals kicked.

So clearly Simpsons message to the media AND to these chosen players behind closed doors is they can do no wrong as he doesn't drop them regardless of their performances.

Malthouse famously dropped malaxos before the 1990 finals series and he was the captain.
Worsfold dropped wirrpunda in 2006 I believe based on his poor form.

Simpson is yet to drop anyone in the "senior" group.
Whether this is his decision or his hands are tied is irrelevant because it shows weakness both ways.

We continually have problems with our performances. Many people expected us to Conte d for the flag this year, we have lost 3 home games this year and yet the players who performed poorly consistently through that period remain in the side.
Masten I recalled twice after producing nothing in the wafl that merits being recalled.
Need, playing Partington wasn't going to have any less impact than Masten did in the derby.

Whatever your thoughts on selecting him after he hadn't played for a few weeks is irrelevant as it's the pattern with Simpson.
He doesn't have the ability in my opinion to make the big calls.

After our loss to hawthorn matlhouse was quoted saying that the way to stop losses like that from happening continually is to drop senior players. The usual whipping boys in hill and Masten don't count as these senior players in my opinion. The list I cited above are the players that have shown poor performances and gone missing in games continually and don't get dropped.
But Simpson won't do it.

He doesn't have the cojones or the coaching ability in my opinion.

A fair few senior players have been dropped at stages this season. MacKenzie, Masten, Wellingham, Hill, Butler, Jetta, Redden, Scohfield ...

Saying they don't count as senior players because they're whipping boys is a cop out. What you're really saying is that the senior players you want to be dropped haven't been dropped. That's a difference of opinion. Some of the senior guys whose form has been poor have been backed in to turn it around. Of those, Darling's had a great few weeks, LeCras has kicked six goals in two weeks since coming back in, Hurn just won the Glendinning Medal so it seems to have paid off. Priddis and Cripps have continued to be below par although both were decent in the Derby I thought.

And again, you're only guessing at what's being said behind closed doors. "The senior players can do no wrong as he doesn't drop them regardless of their performances". For all we know he could've told any one of them they were another bad performance away from being dropped at any time. How would we possibly know that?

 

[Eagleboy68]

A fair few senior players have been dropped at stages this season. MacKenzie, Masten, Wellingham, Hill, Butler, Jetta, Redden, Scohfield ...

Saying they don't count as senior players because they're whipping boys is a cop out. What you're really saying is that the senior players you want to be dropped haven't been dropped. That's a difference of opinion. Some of the senior guys whose form has been poor have been backed in to turn it around. Of those, Darling's had a great few weeks, LeCras has kicked six goals in two weeks since coming back in, Hurn just won the Glendinning Medal so it seems to have paid off. Priddis and Cripps have continued to be below par although both were decent in the Derby I thought.

And again, you're only guessing at what's being said behind closed doors. "The senior players can do no wrong as he doesn't drop them regardless of their performances". For all we know he could've told any one of them they were another bad performance away from being dropped at any time. How would we possibly know that?

Wellingham was injured and has been dropped on form since.
Hill kicks goals and still gets dropped.
McKenzie coming back from knee surgery is always going to struggle
Jetta and redden have been here 5 minutes and calling hem senior players is a stretch.
Schofield is also hardly a senior player. Games played doesn't make you a senior player now does it?
Butler has been in and out of the side for a few years now and is currently injured.


And I wasn't calling those players senior players cause I want them dropped. I was naming senior players who have been out of form.

Lecras went from round 7- 16 without kicking a goal. I mean he's going to eventually but don't trot out to the media his job isn't to kick goals.

Priddis, darling Hurn etc. Have all been poor performers for consistent games and nothing is done.

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

Wellingham was injured and has been dropped on form since.
Hill kicks goals and still gets dropped.
McKenzie coming back from knee surgery is always going to struggle
Jetta and redden have been here 5 minutes and calling hem senior players is a stretch.
Schofield is also hardly a senior player. Games played doesn't make you a senior player now does it?



And I wasn't calling those players senior players cause I want them dropped. I was naming senior players who have been out of form.

Lecras went from round 7- 16 without kicking a goal. I mean he's going to eventually but don't trot out to the media his job isn't to kick goals.

Priddis, darling Hurn etc. Have all been poor performers for consistent games and nothing is done.

I give up. Schofield in his 11th season isn't a senior player so his being dropped doesn't count but Darling and Cripps who have four years less experience are evidence that senior players can't be dropped.

What it comes down to is that there's five players you think should've been dropped at some point. I agree with you about Priddis, to a lesser extent LeCras and Cripps. Darling realistically couldn't be dropped while Kennedy was out and he turned his form around massively the last few weeks. Hurn's form was never bad enough to warrant him being dropped, really.

So there's three players who could potentially have been dropped at some point. Two of them are senior players, both of those guys have been out with "soreness" but not dropped. Cripps isn't a senior player who it'd take massive brass balls to drop.

Again, it's really just coming down largely to a difference of opinion between you and the match committee about which players should be out of the side on form, not an overwhelming inability to drop senior players.

 

[Eagleboy68]

I give up. Schofield in his 11th season isn't a senior player so his being dropped doesn't count but Darling and Cripps who have four years less experience are evidence that senior players can't be dropped.

What it comes down to is that there's five players you think should've been dropped at some point. I agree with you about Priddis, to a lesser extent LeCras and Cripps. Darling realistically couldn't be dropped while Kennedy was out and he turned his form around massively the last few weeks. Hurn's form was never bad enough to warrant him being dropped, really.

So there's three players who could potentially have been dropped at some point. Two of them are senior players, both of those guys have been out with "soreness" but not dropped. Cripps isn't a senior player who it'd take massive brass balls to drop.

Again, it's really just coming down largely to a difference of opinion between you and the match committee about which players should be out of the side on form, not an overwhelming inability to drop senior players.

Fair enough.
I'll leave you with one more thing about it.

Priddis: "soreness"

Just please call it omitted and have some balls Simpson.

 

[Chris_6678]

Meh i am fine with omitted being referred to as "soreness". Really it is the same outcome and the conversation behind closed doors will not be what you hear in public.

 

[eaglesnutcase]

Eb you should be saying that we have a massive problem and its called the "midfield". Priddis,Shuey,Gaff,Jetta,Mitchell Maston etc.Theres our downfall.Its taken from the GF to now to drop Masten.Jetta is newer and was not permanent from day one.Priddis has been sufficiently villified in all corners on this forum to surely justify the boot somewhere.Shuey after starting in a blaze of glory has [ by his own admission ] fallen off the pace.By the way Shuey if you really dont know the answer as to why, go and watch the Geelong game again and see how desperate you were to be first to the ball then watch the week after and see how content you were to be second to the contest.Gaff continues to rack up possessions but is soft,cant tackle cant kick etc.That is the core of our problems as we all know,Thats the blokes that should long ago ALL have had a holiday.Jetta is finally showing a bit of form but hes had a fair swag of holidays before it happened.

 

[Eagleboy68]

Eb you should be saying that we have a massive problem and its called the "midfield". Priddis,Shuey,Gaff,Jetta,Mitchell Maston etc.Theres our downfall.Its taken from the GF to now to drop Masten.Jetta is newer and was not permanent from day one.Priddis has been sufficiently villified in all corners on this forum to surely justify the boot somewhere.Shuey after starting in a blaze of glory has [ by his own admission ] fallen off the pace.By the way Shuey if you really dont know the answer as to why, go and watch the Geelong game again and see how desperate you were to be first to the ball then watch the week after and see how content you were to be second to the contest.Gaff continues to rack up possessions but is soft,cant tackle cant kick etc.That is the core of our problems as we all know,Thats the blokes that should long ago ALL have had a holiday.Jetta is finally showing a bit of form but hes had a fair swag of holidays before it happened.

Yes I agree.
Perhaps my ability to convey this is lacking but it's my point nonetheless.