Bluemour Discussion Thread IV

[agro]

Are you suggesting Geelong would have accepted a 33 year old Simpson in lieu of Tuohy?

It is impossible to quantify what if any benefit Tuohy would have had on the development of our young defenders, but for the record I think your drastically underselling the quality of Simpson & his disposal.


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Simpson has many great qualities, longevity, hardiness, courage.

But consistent, quality kicking to hit targets is not (and has never been) one of them.

 

[PP34]

I'm not suggesting that Simpson should have been traded instead, I do understand that Simpson has no trade currency.

You're not talking to Matthew Lloyd here.

I said I'd rather have Tuohy running out of the backline distributing the ball by foot than Simpson.

I agree, but I'd take some of Simpson's other work over Tuohy.

Either way it's irrelevant. Either of them would have merely been filling a hole for a few years before we find a suitable replacement.

 

[Cutz]

Whether or not you feel taking Palmer off their list was part of the dealings for Marchbank or a favour is irrelevant.

Having him on our list for 1-2 years costs us nothing because we have salary cap space and a list devoid of talent in the bottom half.

All the while we maintain a good relationship with GWS which will assist in our future dealings with them.


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Well goodwill is what its all about isn't it.

I know our Ws and Ls really dont paint a compelling picture ATM, but how far have we already travelled from 2 years ago. Taking Palmer as a salary dump wont form part of our future strategy with list management. That being said, there was some upside to the approach (playing him in the seconds alongside some of the 19 y/0 who weigh 85kgs) helps..for now.

In the next year or so..we wont need to keep taking salary dumps...as hopefully by this point we'll have a decent middle tier who are all fighting to get a game in the firsts..Now...this is when it starts getting exciting..

That middle tier just doesn't exist at Carlton.....well not yet..

Our middle tier consists of Buckleys, Boekhurst, Graham, Jaksch, Sheehan, et al..We know what we have with these guys...Its the middle tier that need to improve and find their range in the first and demand a spot. These guys are supposed to be tearing it up for NBs..But their not. We all know why. But if you look at Hawthorn...thats exactly where their improvement comes from. That tier continue to step up. Their replaced...then step up.

With some continued astute draft picking, and diligent trading our list will bat a little deeper in the coming years..and it will be at this point that you'll stop seeing the drubbings, and the continued losing of the last 6 weeks of every season...

 

[Cutz]

I'm not suggesting that Simpson should have been traded instead, I do understand that Simpson has no trade currency.

You're not talking to Matthew Lloyd here.

I said I'd rather have Tuohy running out of the backline distributing the ball by foot than Simpson.

Dont be fooled by Tuohys sudden increase in talent..He has a seasoned group of players around him that support his every kick and handball.

He's better cause his at Geelong, not because he's got better at playing the game.

 

[Stiffler's Dad]

I think you are missing the point. We didn't need Tuohy. SOS low balled him so he would take the Cats offer. We've got countless others that can play half back.

Palmer being on the list is not taking the place of a future Chris Judd, its more likely preventing DVR or Tutt from an extra year.

GWS needed a first Rd pick to accommodate Richmond in the Deledio trade and salary cap room to fit him in, and we provided both by giving them Geelong's 2018 first and taking Palmers salary off their books.

You claimed SOS is naive in trading.

He is in no way naive, and is perhaps the most cunning negotiator of all the list managers. He has realised that picks and players aren't the only currency available in trading. List spots and salary cap room are the 2 commodities that we currently have in abundance and he is using them to our advantage to secure high end young talent.

You need to look at the big picture.


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Anyone else suspect that this is how Macreadie fell into our lap?

 

[HBF]

We traded Tuohy and a 2nd round pick for Marchbank and Pickett.

Pickett is the wildcard for me next year.
If he can get a full preseason under his belt I think he could be very good for us next year. He's already shown some glimpses this year.

 

[Mr_Plow]

Pickett is the wildcard for me next year.
If he can get a full preseason under his belt I think he could be very good for us next year. He's already shown some glimpses this year.

Expecting him to be starting on the field round 1 of 2018.

He'd be deadly off half-back with his speed and nice kicking.

 

[jezzajay]

We've still got Quentin.

Bugger nearly ran me over in Rundle Mall this arvo!!

i went to school with him...menace!!

 

[Azul]

Quentin, he's the baddie from the Mad Max movie who wanted to do NSFW things with Charlize Theron, right?

 

[HARKER]

Anyone else suspect that this is how Macreadie fell into our lap?

No, as what guarantee was there for no-one else to bid on Macreadie before pick #47?

If we took his name out at #27, then maybe there may have been some agreement in place, but to have that arrangement and then to leave it to pick #47 seems to be a bit of a stretch to me.

 

[Blueballs38]

You've missed the point.


SOS could have (and should have) done the Marchbank deal without having to ditch Tuohy.

GWS needed list spots, we could have played hardball and not taken Palmer.

Out of a flock of a quadrillion sheep, you sir seem to be the only black one.

SOS has been nothing hing short of amazing the last two trade periods.

Just shows you can't please everybody all of the time

 

[navybluesince75]

He once turned water into wine, pretty sure.

his biggest miracle will be turning defense into attack, water into wine is child's play by comparison

 

[agro]

Out of a flock of a quadrillion sheep, you sir seem to be the only black one.

SOS has been nothing hing short of amazing the last two trade periods.

Just shows you can't please everybody all of the time

There are a few other sheep like me, but evidently there are quite a few lemmings out there as well.

 

[Gethelred]

Pickett is the wildcard for me next year.
If he can get a full preseason under his belt I think he could be very good for us next year. He's already shown some glimpses this year.

At full flight, reminds me of Daniel Wells. Precision kicking, getting the ball on the outside of a stoppage and whisking it away before anyone else has reacted. All of this at VFL level, admittedly, but without a preseason.

Could be very interesting, if he makes it.

 

[Blueballs38]

There are a few other sheep like me, but evidently there are quite a few lemmings out there as well.

Obviously u r crying out for Rogers to return.

 

[jezzajay]

Quentin, he's the baddie from the Mad Max movie who wanted to do NSFW things with Charlize Theron, right?

yeah mate...

 

[therubbernub]

Expecting him to be starting on the field round 1 of 2018.

He'd be deadly off half-back with his speed and nice kicking.

Prefer him as a defensive forward to be honest

 

[Jimmae]

Win/win trade imo. Geelong got a bargain and we did what was necessary to get Marchbank whilst keeping pick 5.

I'm a little down that Tuohy seems upset with Carlton ATM, was certainly a favourite of mine.

That trade we did though, in hindsight, you do it every time.

Bigger picture we got Caleb & Pickett might be the icing, for Zach. I'm very comfortable with that.

We're just entering now the first trading / list management period .......... post-honey moon

This was always going to be a time wehre divisive and strong opinions emerged - too early for kids to shine, long enough for some spectators to forget / stop caring

All in all, I'm really proud to be a CFC member - most supporters still respect and understand where the club is at

We already had pick 5 which became pick 6 when GWS matched our offer for Setterfield.
Very happy we got SPS.
So we traded Tuohy and our second for Smedts, Marchbank and Pickett.

In isolation we didn't get the best deal for Tuohy. But as a whole we had a good trade period.
Theory is that GWS told us to cave on Tuohy so they could get a free run at Deledio. They would then deal on Marchbank/Pickett & not match our Macreadie bid whilst we took Palmer's contract.

All you have to remember is this;

GWS weren't going to deal on Marchbank/Pickett with a second rounder, but did it for the first. That's all that matters.
Some may say that Geelong won out of the trade and they did.........but so did we as we got what we wanted, for a very good price.

The biggest problem I have with that trade is that we took Smedts and his full contract, and we didn't really get anything for doing so.

We did Geelong a favour after they turned Tuohy's head. If they weren't prepared to offer a better player, we should have demanded one of their picks in the 30s/40s as additional compensation for opening up their salary cap options.

As for the net trade, it's actually:

Marchbank, Pickett, Smedts, #63 and GWS' future 2nd
for
Tuohy, our future 2nd, 45, 58

The whole point was to appease Richmond, and GWS were the biggest losers out of it, but we caved on the Geelong front.

 

[Robertio]

Negotiations aren't simple, they're complex - it isn't about playing hardball, it's about what cards you want to get, what cards you hold and when you play them.

Trade was done in the last 30 mins of trade week, the door was nearly closed. And GWS wanted Marchbank or our pick 5. We got Marchbank and kept 5.
Yes, GWS were shortening their lists, but there was no pressure on GWS with Marchbank. List shortening continued after trade week.
Tuohy also wanted to go, had a better deal with the Cats.

SOS ain't a push over. Look at Gibbs and Adelaide.


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Adelaide stuffed up our whole trade period,coming out the first day saying they wanted Gibbs.They never had the knackers to take him.

 

[The Flying Doormat]

In three years time when Caleb is AA, we'll be saying Zac whuohy?

 

[therubbernub]

There are a few other sheep like me, but evidently there are quite a few lemmings out there as well.

I am a SOS fan, but with qualification. What he HAS proved, is that he knows how to spot talent and the right talent at that. His strike rate has been phenomenal. BUT I have reservations about how he raises the capital (picks) to achieve these picks. I am not a fan of just getting rid of talent willy nilly to maximise the number of picks that we can have. Specifically I would have problems with a departure of Gibbs for unders or Casboult for the sort of picks being talked about. IF a really great opportunity is being offered to prize Gibbs away - then sure you grab it - but that wont be the case IMO. Touhy was forced out by SOS's low ball tactics, and whilst it worked because we had a replacement for Touhy and we got Marchbank, we should be careful to low ball best 22 players going forward. Levi if he is low balled out, will be quite difficult to replace .

 

[agro]

Obviously u r crying out for Rogers to return.

Obviously not.

 

[HARKER]

As for the net trade, it's actually:

Marchbank, Pickett, Smedts, #63 and GWS' future 2nd
for
Tuohy, our future 2nd, 45, 58

The whole point was to appease Richmond, and GWS were the biggest losers out of it, but we caved on the Geelong front.

...............which in turned into Macreadie, Williamson and Kerr. Not bad.

Even at this early stage, it wouldn't have hurt to have an extra 2nd or 3rd rounder in hand.
Looks to be a beauty of a draft.

 

[agro]

Look SOS, is clearly better than what we had.

But let's not confuse SOS (full back of the century) with SOS (List Manager).

The same as we've confuse Stephen Kernahan (great CHF) with Stephen Kernahan (Carlton President).

We are certainly in a better position now with SOS list manager - but there are very questionable deals which haven't worked out for us - and to just hero worship SOS is just foolish

 

[Jimmae]

I am a SOS fan, but with qualification. What he HAS proved, is that he knows how to spot talent and the right talent at that. His strike rate has been phenomenal. BUT I have reservations about how he raises the capital (picks) to achieve these picks. I am not a fan of just getting rid of talent willy nilly to maximise the number of picks that we can have. Specifically I would have problems with a departure of Gibbs for unders or Casboult for the sort of picks being talked about. IF a really great opportunity is being offered to prize Gibbs away - then sure you grab it - but that wont be the case IMO. Touhy was forced out by SOS's low ball tactics, and whilst it worked because we had a replacement for Touhy and we got Marchbank, we should be careful to low ball best 22 players going forward. Levi if he is low balled out, will be quite difficult to replace .

The 2012 draft wasn't great in hindsight, but everything else went well.

...............which in turned into Macreadie, Williamson and Kerr. Not bad.

Even at this early stage, it wouldn't have hurt to have an extra 2nd or 3rd rounder in hand.
Looks to be a beauty of a draft.

The whole point was to appease Richmond, and GWS were the biggest losers out of it, but we caved on the Geelong front.