Movie Star Wars: The Last Jedi. - THREAD PART 1 - *SPOILERS and RUMORS* - Cont. in Part 2

[Thrawn]

Don't disagree at all, but that has nothing to do with reviews and reviewers.

Then why are you talking about their pulling power?

The idea that critics are just a paid extension of the movie industry is at odds with everything we have seen. It's lurching into silly fake news conspiracy talk.

Some of them are, saying that isn't "fake news" or "conspiratorial", it's actually not surprising. And even then, a lot of these critics aren't even Star Wars fans, or have no real emotional connection to it. They're viewing this from a casual moviegoer's perspective, thus, fail to understand why Star Wars fans are upset in the first place. Some articles have even blamed the backlash on racism or sexism, or meddling with RT user scores for some kind of alt-right agenda which is far more conspiratorial than what I was saying.

 

[Strange Cat]

neck beard on YouTube. A.

Oh so you’re also dismissing your precious professional reviews that have critize the film....there’s quite a few of them out there btw but I guess they are just fanbois or halfwits

The reviews are only objective and valid when they suit your agenda? I don’t dismiss that there are postitive reviews and I don’t hate on anyone for likening the film.

What I do hate is argorant people like you that can dismiss views and resort to name calling because they don’t suit your agenda.

So far we have “emotional intelligence” “subtexts” “infers” and now “neck beards” to insult others that don’t agree with the positive reviews of the film.

 

[JackOutback]

Then why are you talking about their pulling power?


Some of them are, saying that isn't "fake news" or "conspiratorial", it's actually not surprising. And even then, a lot of these critics aren't even Star Wars fans, or have no real emotional connection to it. They're viewing this from a casual moviegoer's perspective, thus, fail to understand why Star Wars fans are upset in the first place. Some articles have even blamed the backlash on racism or sexism, or meddling with RT user scores for some kind of alt-right agenda which is far more conspiratorial than what I was saying.

OK, I see where we have crossed wires. I was referring to Disney's 'pull' with critics. It would be the same, regardless of the franchise involved. If they could convince critics to give a shot movie good reviews, they would do it for all their movies.

As for the meddling with RT scores, that's been pretty conclusively proven, including someone online explicitly stating that he did it.

 

[JackOutback]

Then why are you talking about their pulling power?


Some of them are, saying that isn't "fake news" or "conspiratorial", it's actually not surprising. And even then, a lot of these critics aren't even Star Wars fans, or have no real emotional connection to it. They're viewing this from a casual moviegoer's perspective, thus, fail to understand why Star Wars fans are upset in the first place. Some articles have even blamed the backlash on racism or sexism, or meddling with RT user scores for some kind of alt-right agenda which is far more conspiratorial than what I was saying.

OK, I see where we have crossed wires. I was referring to Disney's 'pull' with critics. It would be the same, regardless of the franchise involved. If they could convince critics to give a shit movie good reviews, they would do it for all their movies.

As for the meddling with RT scores, that's been pretty conclusively proven, including someone online explicitly stating that he did it.

 

[Strange Cat]

I’m out I can’t stand the continuous same arguments and the pro side resorting to insults to get their point across

Good luck I hope Disney has the same attitude in dismissing the back lash as some of the posters in here have, it’ll come back to bite them eventually.

I’m sure George regrets not listening to the dissents after TPM.

 

[JackOutback]

Oh so you’re also dismissing your precious professional reviews that have critize the film....there’s quite a few of them out there btw but I guess they are just fanbois or halfwits

The reviews are only objective and valid when they suit your agenda? I don’t dismiss that there are postitive reviews and I don’t hate on anyone for likening the film.

What I do hate is argorant people like you that can dismiss views and resort to name calling because they don’t suit your agenda.

So far we have “emotional intelligence” “subtexts” “infers” and now “neck beards” to insult others that don’t agree with the positive reviews of the film.

Are you for real? Of course I recognise there are bad reviews, no film gets only good reviews, but when it's sitting at 92 per cent then you have to admit the critical consensus is good (something you refuse to acknowledge).

As for the rest of the post, you've spent the past week acting like it was objectively a bad film and anyone who liked it was wrong. You have been wilfully ignorant of facts like reviews and box office.

 

[Thrawn]

As for the meddling with RT scores, that's been pretty conclusively proven, including someone online explicitly stating that he did it.

Conclusively? RT has pretty much said none of that has happened. Even if there was meddling, you don't think the pro side would be doing the same?

There's actually an example of this happening, I'll try to find the link for you.

You have been wilfully ignorant of facts like reviews and box office.

As said previously, box office numbers doesn't mean anything when it comes to film quality, otherwise Avatar is the best sci-fi movie of all time.

 

[Janus]

Saw it again - it gets better every time I watch it

If you know the concept of the Tree of Death/Life, you’ll appreciate that when Luke is talking about the tension between all living things is the conflict between creation, which is selfless, and destruction, which is selfish.

To create life means to give energy. To take energy requires consumption - of plants, animals, resources.

The Force does not belong to the Jedi...but the Jedi never owned the Force. They were merely guardians of the balance. When they started getting involved in political affairs (which is what happened at the start of Episode 1), they stopped doing that and instead started to try and shift the balance towards what they felt was “good”. But as Palpatine said, good is a point of view.

I’m sorry your pew pew Star Wars got shit on.

 

[Mootsy]

Actually the prequels are pretty good, just rewatched them, lol.

AOTC is better than I remembered. It’s really good! Bizarrely, even though the effects are dated, it kind of works, it’s so open world and for those not enjoying the jokes, there are none in these films.

after watching them all again, I’ve mellowed out, it’s even easier to enjoy these latest films, you can enjoy every film for its flaws and for its good moments

Watching the entire SW catalogue has made me want to watch movies again!

You don’t have to overanalyse these films, just sit back and let it take you somewhere.

 

[Kellythatsit]

I said audience ratings aren't reflective of a movies popularity, not quality. My example was that Transformers 2, 3 and 4 did shit on both rotten tomatoes scales but still made a **** tonne of money. This is because a lot of people love those movies. None of the new Star Wars movies have gotten bad critic and audience scores yet, so they aren't even close to the drop off Transformers 5 suffered from. Some people are acting as if there is some genuine 50/50 divide about The Last Jedi being good or not. It's just not true. Episode IX is going to do very well at the box office, the people who refuse to go and see it because of TLJ will probably not even make up 1%.

Exactly, by any other measure a film that received rave critical reception PLUS a massive taking in receipts would be regarded as a success. Here though, apparently it is the vocal minority that really know because YouTube.

This is as bad as the 9/11 thread.

 

[Kellythatsit]

So like TLJ has been recieving

Glad we cleared that up

Haha [emoji23]

Brilliant.

Must be 1 bad review for every 20 good reviews.

 

[Gralin]

An article coming up with reasons why one of the male characters being shown with their top off could be cannon is a pretty good example of the problem with Star Wars.
TFA is crap because it's too much like SW - a star wars fan
TLJ is crap because it's not enough like SW - a star wars fan

I thought it was pretty decent, the biggest issue for me was trying to dodge all the crap online long enough to see it without major spoilers etc ruining it for me

 

[King Elvis]

Saw it again - it gets better every time I watch it

If you know the concept of the Tree of Death/Life, you’ll appreciate that when Luke is talking about the tension between all living things is the conflict between creation, which is selfless, and destruction, which is selfish.

To create life means to give energy. To take energy requires consumption - of plants, animals, resources.

The Force does not belong to the Jedi...but the Jedi never owned the Force. They were merely guardians of the balance. When they started getting involved in political affairs (which is what happened at the start of Episode 1), they stopped doing that and instead started to try and shift the balance towards what they felt was “good”. But as Palpatine said, good is a point of view.

I’m sorry your pew pew Star Wars got shit on.

Yea, right.

 

[Crankyhawk]

I think the hardcore fans are taking SW way too seriously.
It was always meant to be disposable bubblegum entertainment, with plot holes, hackneyed stories, but enjoyable to watch.

 

[Summer Nights]

I’m out I can’t stand the continuous same arguments and the pro side resorting to insults to get their point across

Good luck I hope Disney has the same attitude in dismissing the back lash as some of the posters in here have, it’ll come back to bite them eventually.

I’m sure George regrets not listening to the dissents after TPM.

Thank you.

 

[Matera92]

Walked out with very mixed feelings. Enjoyed the fact that I was watching a Star Wars film, some of the set pieces were amazing and the CGI/practical effects were some of, if not the best I've ever seen.

However the absolute butchering of Luke Skywalkers character and the fact that RJ seemed to torch nearly everything set up by TFA really feels like there's been absolutely no progression in the series at all. I guess this is what happens when you don't write the films as a trilogy, but instead bring in different directors with different ideas as to how the story should go.

When people ask me if it's any good, I can only respond with. "I honestly don't know how to feel about it."

 

[Coolangatta]

Walked out with very mixed feelings. Enjoyed the fact that I was watching a Star Wars film, some of the set pieces were amazing and the CGI/practical effects were some of, if not the best I've ever seen.

However the absolute butchering of Luke Skywalkers character and the fact that RJ seemed to torch nearly everything set up by TFA really feels like there's been absolutely no progression in the series at all. I guess this is what happens when you don't write the films as a trilogy, but instead bring in different directors with different ideas as to how the story should go.

When people ask me if it's any good, I can only respond with. "I honestly don't know how to feel about it."

Your claim that they butchered Luke is subjective. He didn't try to kill Kylo, he thought about it for a split second the way he thought about killing Vader until the Emperor piped up and told him to finish him off. If you could go back in time and kill young Hitler, would you? That was the dilemma Luke was faced with. He ****ed up, went into exile as Yoda and Obi-Wan did. Apparently he's not allowed to make mistakes, though, even though he did in the OT. The difference is this time, Luke failed on a massive scale and learned that the Jedi religion is bullshit. Put yourself in his shoes, wouldn't you be tempted to walk away from it all after discovering that?

Also, what exactly did you think TFA was setting up? Rey thought Luke was a myth, Maz already told her she knows the truth about her parents, Luke never told R2 to wait till the time's right, Luke never gave R2 the entire map, Lor was hunting around for the last piece based on the rumours about Luke going to the first Jedi temple, need I go on? The argument that TLJ undid what TFA set up just sounds like code language for "I didn't like the direction Rian took it in." which is fine. I even wrote on another site shit I would've done differently for the plot (way easier in hindsight than prior to knowing about the plot) but to say he torched everything is false.

 

[Thrawn]

Some people are acting as if there is some genuine 50/50 divide about The Last Jedi being good or not. It's just not true.

Must be 1 bad review for every 20 good reviews.

Star Wars was always going to be popular and make big money, that's got nothing to do with how people are rating it though. You still need to buy the ticket and see the movie to form an opinion of it.

Metacritic average rating for audiences is 4.7/10.
RT average rating for audiences is 52%.

Yeah, no genuine divide and 1 bad review out of 20 alright. FMD, you two are in denial. If you think this movie hasn't been divisive then you either haven't been paying attention, or have been drinking Luke's milk.

Exactly, by any other measure a film that received rave critical reception PLUS a massive taking in receipts would be regarded as a success. Here though, apparently it is the vocal minority that really know because YouTube.

This is as bad as the 9/11 thread.

Except that no one is denying that it's successful, people are saying that it's a shit Star Wars movie. There's a big split here, and in audience ratings... I don't know why you're trying to deny this. It seems to me like you're basing this entirely on the score from "professional" critics, rather than reading what the public are thinking. And a lot of that criticism isn't from some "fanboi", "should've been like this" type of argument either.

 

[Matera92]

Your claim that they butchered Luke is subjective. He didn't try to kill Kylo, he thought about it for a split second the way he thought about killing Vader until the Emperor piped up and told him to finish him off. If you could go back in time and kill young Hitler, would you? That was the dilemma Luke was faced with. He ****** up, went into exile as Yoda and Obi-Wan did. Apparently he's not allowed to make mistakes, though, even though he did in the OT. The difference is this time, Luke failed on a massive scale and learned that the Jedi religion is bullshit. Put yourself in his shoes, wouldn't you be tempted to walk away from it all after discovering that?

Also, what exactly did you think TFA was setting up? Rey thought Luke was a myth, Maz already told her she knows the truth about her parents, Luke never told R2 to wait till the time's right, Luke never gave R2 the entire map, Lor was hunting around for the last piece based on the rumours about Luke going to the first Jedi temple, need I go on? The argument that TLJ undid what TFA set up just sounds like code language for "I didn't like the direction Rian took it in." which is fine. I even wrote on another site shit I would've done differently for the plot (way easier in hindsight than prior to knowing about the plot) but to say he torched everything is false.

Can't be bothered pulling up all the points, there's enough stuff on youtube/web that details the things that have either been shit on or just thrown by the way side.
As for Luke? I find it hard to fathom that the man who turned himself over to the most evil villain in SW history because he sensed a shred of humanity in him, and wanted to turn him back to the light, would contemplate murdering his sister/best friends child while he slept. Nope, sorry, not buying it.

Glad you enjoyed the film, I just found it inconsistent and poorly developed for the middle film in a trilogy.

 

[JackOutback]

Star Wars was always going to be popular and make big money, that's got nothing to do with how people are rating it though. You still need to buy the ticket and see the movie to form an opinion of it.

Metacritic average rating for audiences is 4.7/10.
RT average rating for audiences is 52%.

Yeah, no genuine divide and 1 bad review out of 20 alright. FMD, you two are in denial. If you think this movie hasn't been divisive then you either haven't been paying attention, or have been drinking Luke's milk.


Except that no one is denying that it's successful, people are saying that it's a shit Star Wars movie. There's a big split here, and in audience ratings... I don't know why you're trying to deny this. It seems to me like you're basing this entirely on the score from "professional" critics, rather than reading what the public are thinking. And a lot of that criticism isn't from some "fanboi", "should've been like this" type of argument either.

Because anonymous online opinion polls are more open to manipulation by a noisy few than other methods of judging a film.

 

[Thrawn]

Can't be bothered pulling up all the points, there's enough stuff on youtube/web that details the things that have either been shit on or just thrown by the way side.
As for Luke? I find it hard to fathom that the man who turned himself over to the most evil villain in SW history because he sensed a shred of humanity in him, and wanted to turn him back to the light, would contemplate murdering his sister/best friends child while he slept. Nope, sorry, not buying it.

Glad you enjoyed the film, I just found it inconsistent and poorly developed for the middle film in a trilogy.

He's really arguing that TFA didn't try to set anything up?

 

[Matera92]

He's really arguing that TFA didn't try to set anything up?

It was all a ruse for a casino heist, and to free the greyhounds. That's the real victory here.

 

[Thrawn]

Because anonymous online opinion polls are more open to manipulation by a noisy few than other methods of judging a film.

Alright, so according to you it's open to manipulation, but someone dares mention that very same thing on the flipside, it's suddenly conspiratorial and this thread is as bad as the 9/11 thread?

But I'm sure those bots are working hard to change that 85% to a 50%... right. Tell me, what better way do you have to actually gauge public opinion here? Or are you just in denial? You don't even need to go to something like Metacritic to see the ratings, someone mentioned YT already but if you go to a lot of the media articles that allow comments (where there are a lot of them), you'll see more of the same. Reddit/Facebook/twitter/etc - it's the same spilt everywhere where there's a lot of discussion about this movie. Even here, or is everyone who dislikes the movie a fanboi too?

What constitutes a good or bad movie may be subjective, but this movie being divisive certainly isn't. I don't even need to dislike the movie to say that. ****'s sake...

 

[Thrawn]

Saw it again - it gets better every time I watch it

If you know the concept of the Tree of Death/Life, you’ll appreciate that when Luke is talking about the tension between all living things is the conflict between creation, which is selfless, and destruction, which is selfish.

To create life means to give energy. To take energy requires consumption - of plants, animals, resources.

The Force does not belong to the Jedi...but the Jedi never owned the Force. They were merely guardians of the balance. When they started getting involved in political affairs (which is what happened at the start of Episode 1), they stopped doing that and instead started to try and shift the balance towards what they felt was “good”. But as Palpatine said, good is a point of view.

I’m sorry your pew pew Star Wars got shit on.

Ok Buddha.

 

[exe ex machina]

A good comment I read elsewhere on the internet.....

Star Wars has always been about spiritual growth and you don't grow spiritually by conquering the world. You do so by conquering your own nature.

But he did. He threw away his lightsaber when he realized what he was about to do on the second Death Star. He conquered his fear and his anger. He stopped fighting. He realized the only way to win this impossible confrontation was to stay true to his ideals. I guess what irks me the most about this is that they just threw everything away he'd learned that day (and over the course of the OT).

Never mind that he was a good man and Jedi, compassionate, kind, loyal to a fault. Progress? Not needed. The hero's journey? Who cares! He's just another failure in a long line of failures. How very "interesting"...

It probably comes down to one simple thing: How do you judge what happened at the end of ROTJ? Do you believe what the filmmakers told us that day (and in TFA and the books and comics since), that he's the personification of goodness and hope - or do you see it as the beginning of the end of Luke Skywalker? Since there's nothing to support the second option for me, apart from maybe five minutes of screentime in a movie that's filled with convenient plot devices and which tramples all over this universe many people took a long time to build, I'll stick with number one for now.

Again, it's just my personal opinion. I wouldn't mind the development as much if they had shown us what happened in between and made a compelling argument what made Luke change so much. But sadly, we only got a botched explanation and no real context.

Here's hoping for a director's cut or a book or a comic which makes sense of all this. The film alone simply doesn't work for me.