Movie Star Wars: The Last Jedi. - THREAD PART 1 - *SPOILERS and RUMORS* - Cont. in Part 2

[Thrawn]

Yeah, this is it, it's just offended fanboys. You can make legitimate gripes about Mary Poppins Leia, perhaps some mistimed jokes and the Finn-Rose subplot, but ultimately it was the death of Snoke, Luke and Rey random that pissed off the noisy minority. You know how I know that? Almost every negative YouTube reviewer brings those points up. Every other complaint I've seen is just nitpicking garbage claims that could easily be made about all of the Star Wars films. Hell, I was one of the people who wanted Snoke and Luke to make it through to IX but for anyone to suggest that this movie was worse than the prequels because of these divisive choices is preposterous.

You are merely handwaving criticism of the film by immediately assuming they're all from fanboys. Has the thought ever occurred to you that they're consistently in every single negative review because it is genuinely a problem with the film? Even a lot of the positive reviews point them out, but some are more forgiving than others of course. It wasn't the death of Luke and Snoke that has pissed off the "noisy minority", it was how it was handled. There are other criticisms than what you listed, and they dealt with pacing issues and the fact that the movie feels so disjointed and incoherent. Something that wasn't really apparent in the original trilogy. ANH-ESB-ROTJ transitions were coherent, yet here you are dismissing claims of people that TFA-TLJ is otherwise. It's more than just a "nitpick".

And I'm not aware of too many people/reviewers who rate this movie lower than TPM. Sounds like you're tarring people with the same brush, exactly what you're doing with fanboy.

 

[quotemokc]

Can someone explain to me the metallic scar on Ren's cheek?

 

[Kellythatsit]

Star Wars was always going to be popular and make big money, that's got nothing to do with how people are rating it though. You still need to buy the ticket and see the movie to form an opinion of it.

Metacritic average rating for audiences is 4.7/10.
RT average rating for audiences is 52%.

Yeah, no genuine divide and 1 bad review out of 20 alright. FMD, you two are in denial. If you think this movie hasn't been divisive then you either haven't been paying attention, or have been drinking Luke's milk.

If you read the post I responded to, Strange Cat inferred that there is a growing crush of bad reviews for this movie. That’s actually bs and the general critical consensus still remains incredibly high.

I can internet, dude. I do realise there is a massive divide between the professional reviews and a vocal group of pissed Star Wars fans but I’m yet to see real evidence of this supposed critical backlash outside of “this ain’t my Star Wars” rants.

Except that no one is denying that it's successful, people are saying that it's a shit Star Wars movie. There's a big split here, and in audience ratings... I don't know why you're trying to deny this. It seems to me like you're basing this entirely on the score from "professional" critics, rather than reading what the public are thinking. And a lot of that criticism isn't from some "fanboi", "should've been like this" type of argument either.

I’m not denying anything however your claim that audiences dislike this movie is completely unfounded. The exit polling by sites such as CinemaScore give it a high rating which indicates that the vast majority of people going to see this film have enjoyed it.

Frankly, the hate posts I’ve seen on RT and IMDB etc seem to be almost exclusively by angry fans who don’t like:
1. How Luke Skywalker was treated
2. That Rey is a nobody
3. That Rey is too powerful
4. That Rey is a girl
5. That there is PC agenda
6. That no one says “I have a bad feeling about this”
7. That there’s too much humour
8. That there’s not enough humour
9. That the humour falls flat
10. That Snoke isn’t who they wanted him to be
11. That seeing a man without a shirt on made them feel icky inside.

...etc

Occasionally the posts will scatter some technical criticism about pacing but mainly the problems are completely subjective and specific to stat wars fandom.

This isn’t the general public posting these reviews, its fans, and for you to claim it’s anything but is disingenuous.

 

[Kellythatsit]

Ok Buddha.

You mock but the basic tenets of the force as conceived in ESB had a solid Buddhist basis. Irvin Kershner and Gary Kurtz were both Zen Buddhists and many of the teachings of Yoda are grounded in this philosophy.

 

[Kellythatsit]

And I'm not aware of too many people/reviewers who rate this movie lower than TPM. Sounds like you're tarring people with the same brush, exactly what you're doing with fanboy.

Haha...except the online petition, signed by thousands of pissed Star Wars fans, demanding Disney strike the film from official Star Wars canon.

Don’t see one of those up there for any of the prequels (nor Rebels for that matter).

 

[Kellythatsit]

Can someone explain to me the metallic scar on Ren's cheek?

It’s a space band-aid

 

[exe ex machina]

If you read the post I responded to, Strange Cat inferred that there is a growing crush of bad reviews for this movie. That’s actually bs and the general critical consensus still remains incredibly high.

I can internet, dude. I do realise there is a massive divide between the professional reviews and a vocal group of pissed Star Wars fans but I’m yet to see real evidence of this supposed critical backlash outside of “this ain’t my Star Wars” rants.


I’m not denying anything however your claim that audiences dislike this movie is completely unfounded. The exit polling by sites such as CinemaScore give it a high rating which indicates that the vast majority of people going to see this film have enjoyed it.

Frankly, the hate posts I’ve seen on RT and IMDB etc seem to be almost exclusively by angry fans who don’t like:
1. How Luke Skywalker was treated
2. That Rey is a nobody
3. That Rey is too powerful
4. That Rey is a girl
5. That there is PC agenda
6. That no one says “I have a bad feeling about this”
7. That there’s too much humour
8. That there’s not enough humour
9. That the humour falls flat
10. That Snoke isn’t who they wanted him to be
11. That seeing a man without a shirt on made them feel icky inside.

...etc

Occasionally the posts will scatter some technical criticism about pacing but mainly the problems are completely subjective and specific to stat wars fandom.

This isn’t the general public posting these reviews, its fans, and for you to claim it’s anything but is disingenuous.

That's a bit disingenuous there. The MAIN complaints -- from fans and analysts alike -- is that there are major problems with the script....the main plot and sub-plots especially, the story largely treading on water, that TLJ broke everything TFA tried to set up which is a fundamental faceplant in trilogy writing. Those are the main problems. And of course, there are all the other ones you mention and more, that are more the minor things in the movie, that people take umbrage with.

As in, it's a GIVEN now that the story/script is shit, and so no one really argues/debates that much. Instead, the thing that is causing the most debate back and forth is all the smaller details in the story, why they end up dominating most of the debates because they're interesting and thought-provoking topics....like Luke's arc, etc etc.

 

[Thrawn]

If you read the post I responded to, Strange Cat inferred that there is a growing crush of bad reviews for this movie. That’s actually bs and the general critical consensus still remains incredibly high

It's not BS though. If, you're only using professional critic scores though, then maybe. But you have to look at many samples, not just from one site.

I can internet, dude. I do realise there is a massive divide between the professional reviews and a vocal group of pissed Star Wars fans but I’m yet to see real evidence of this supposed critical backlash outside of “this ain’t my Star Wars” rants

I think you are underestimating the number of people upset by this film.

I’m not denying anything however your claim that audiences dislike this movie is completely unfounded. The exit polling by sites such as CinemaScore give it a high rating which indicates that the vast majority of people going to see this film have enjoyed it

You were denying that there was division, stating that it's only 1/20 bad reviews when it is a lot higher than that when you actually internet. It's not divisive if it's only 1 out of 20 disliking it. As for CinemaScore, it is an incredibly low sample size, and it is the same site that gave The Phantom Menace an A-, a movie where there was much more derision than this one. So saying the "vast majority of people" based on CinemaScore isn't exactly concrete. In fact you can't really make that statement with near enough certainty unless you look pretty much everywhere. Reddit, Facebook, YT etc.

Frankly, the hate posts I’ve seen on RT and IMDB etc seem to be almost exclusively by angry fans who don’t like:
1. How Luke Skywalker was treated
2. That Rey is a nobody
3. That Rey is too powerful
4. That Rey is a girl
5. That there is PC agenda
6. That no one says “I have a bad feeling about this”
7. That there’s too much humour
8. That there’s not enough humour
9. That the humour falls flat
10. That Snoke isn’t who they wanted him to be
11. That seeing a man without a shirt on made them feel icky inside.

Alright, so you put in a few points there that are either exclusively on sites like Infowars or that Donald Trump reddit, or are so incredibly rare it's not really worth mentioning. There'll always be idiots in comment sections. Things like "PC agenda" and "Rey is a girl" are not relevant to valid criticism of the film, most of the reviews we see do not mention shit like that (4, 5, 6, 8, 11lol). You're cherry-picking these reviews and stretching out some of these points as if they are the norm. There are also other criticisms you missed - like various plot points that made no sense (eg. Holdo not telling her plans, casino planet, the lack of character development of Poe and Finn in particular, etc) the lack of continuity between the previous movie... shall I go on?

But the main one is certainly Luke, and that's a valid criticism. So is the abundance of humour that ruins serious moments and Rey pretty much being a Mary Sue character. Another one I'd like to add that is overlooked - the lack of emotional reaction after Luke's death. It just felt so... empty.

This isn’t the general public posting these reviews, its fans, and for you to claim it’s anything but is disingenuous.

The majority of people who will watch a Star Wars film will be Star Wars fans. Star Wars didn't become the biggest franchise in the world without them, and it certainly didn't become the biggest in the world from curious onlookers who are complete strangers to the universe. What's disingenuous is separating "fan" from "general public".

 

[Thrawn]

You mock but the basic tenets of the force as conceived in ESB had a solid Buddhist basis. Irvin Kershner and Gary Kurtz were both Zen Buddhists and many of the teachings of Yoda are grounded in this philosophy.

I'm mocking the poster. The same poster who rates this movie higher than Empire, and thinks Mark Hamill doesn't fully understand his character, but is happy enough to lecture that he apparently knows more.

 

[Thrawn]

Haha...except the online petition, signed by thousands of pissed Star Wars fans, demanding Disney strike the film from official Star Wars canon.

Don’t see one of those up there for any of the prequels (nor Rebels for that matter).

They're online petitions. Who cares? Most people I know wouldn't even bother to click online petition links.

And the reason you don't is because mass social media and petition sites (well popular ones that would allow you to share to social media) didn't exist when the prequels came out (1999 was still early days for most people on the net). If TPM came out in modern times instead, I would guarantee you there'd not only be an online petition, but with more signatures and multiple ones!

And as I said, go to multiple sites (social media, articles about the movie in mainstream press where comments are open, etc) and you'll find most people don't say it's worse than TPM.

 

[mike123]

What the **** is Finn anyway? Is he the only Stormtrooper who wanted to break free?

They haven't explored his character in any depth

And that hug with Rey, surely they should have kissed. There's tension there but they get him to akwardly pash Rose instead

LAME

Finn and Rose kissed because they're both coloured.

 

[mike123]

View attachment 447406

I'd pick the opening crawl, I was filled with hope and excitement.

 

[mike123]

So I've mentioned it before and I think with a few tweaks the movie could have been much less divisive and had a far better audience reaction without substantially changing the overall narrative.

1. Adjust the results of the attack on the bridge to get rid of the Leia's Mary Poppins moment. Still have the loss of life and Leia injured but not to the ridiculous level of her surviving after being blown into space.
2. Have the casino side mission be sanctioned and remove the stupid mutiny sub plot.
3. Have Phasma sent to track the ship from the casino side mission with her on their tail in the Casino planet and providing urgency rather than having local authorities doing it. DJ was actually working for her the whole time and it was all a trap orchestrated by Hux thereby making him look more competent.
4. Have Leia take Holdo's place and have her pilot the cruiser with Holdo boarding the escape shuttle. Have Luke do his astral goodbye with Leia before she rams the first order fleet.
5. Adjust the Luke/Ben situation so that Luke going for/igniting his lightsabre is a reaction to Snoke (and not a fleeting thought of ending Ben because Dark Side). He still fells the guilt and shame for failing to notice/prevent Snoke influencing Ben until it was too late.
6. No Rey is nobody and her parents abandoned/sold her.

I'd add five Snoke a bit of backstory before he dies and give us a lightsaber fight then the movie would be good. Also make the casino look more like a space casino.

 

[mike123]

Also, a true Jedi doesn't have children.

Based on what?

 

[Kellythatsit]

Based on what?

Based on the prequels I’d assume ... you know, the whole attachment is forbidden etc.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Kellythatsit]

It's not BS though. If, you're only using professional critic scores though, then maybe. But you have to look at many samples, not just from one site.

Like I said, read the frigging discussion I was replying to.

The inference Strange Cat made was that professional critics were beginning to post negative reviews.

I was responding to that inference.

I think you are underestimating the number of people upset by this film.

I don’t think so. As I said there is a vocal group of angry Star Wars fans who have taken to social media and posted their contempt for this movie. Or should we believe that your average film goer is going to take the time to post a seething review for a movie they really couldn’t give a rats about in the first place.

You were denying that there was division, stating that it's only 1/20 bad reviews when it is a lot higher than that when you actually internet. It's not divisive if it's only 1 out of 20 disliking it.

Already explained this, hombre.

As for CinemaScore, it is an incredibly low sample size, and it is the same site that gave The Phantom Menace an A-, a movie where there was much more derision than this one. So saying the "vast majority of people" based on CinemaScore isn't exactly concrete. In fact you can't really make that statement with near enough certainty unless you look pretty much everywhere. Reddit, Facebook, YT etc.

Sites such as cinema score may use a low sample size but it is at least regulated and measured to eliminate as much bias as possible. At any rate, it is the preferred standard used by movie studios to gauge response to a film, whether you agree with it or not.

As you’ve pointed out however, it does have its glitches (though I do remember TPM on release was met very positively by fans, the critics less so. For what it’s worth, I myself rate it highest of all the prequels, which isn’t saying much. But I digress)

Still, it is far and away a better measure of a films reception than relying on random social media chatter. The only thing you gauge from it is that people are:
A) passionate about this franchise
B) really dislike the movie

That’s it, you can’t accurately say how many, what demographic, what their age is, male or female, even if they’ve commented/voted/rated the movie more than once.

It’s absurd to claim social media has any kind of worth to accurately measure the response or reception to a movie, particularly something as loved a the Star Wars movies.

Alright, so you put in a few points there that are either exclusively on sites like Infowars or that Donald Trump reddit, or are so incredibly rare it's not really worth mentioning. There'll always be idiots in comment sections. Things like "PC agenda" and "Rey is a girl" are not relevant to valid criticism of the film, most of the reviews we see do not mention shit like that (4, 5, 6, 8, 11lol). You're cherry-picking these reviews and stretching out some of these points as if they are the norm.

Yes, yes I was being facetious. I apologise however I will maintain that every single one of those points has appeared in many Social media fan reviews and been brought up on this very thread on numerous occasions.

There are also other criticisms you missed - like various plot points that made no sense (eg. Holdo not telling her plans, casino planet, the lack of character development of Poe and Finn in particular, etc) the lack of continuity between the previous movie... shall I go on?

Yes please do because pretty much everything you’ve mentioned is completely subjective and to many others, including reviewers, are non issues.

I myself am bewildered by the whole Holdo not telling her plans criticism?

But the main one is certainly Luke, and that's a valid criticism. So is the abundance of humour that ruins serious moments and Rey pretty much being a Mary Sue character. Another one I'd like to add that is overlooked - the lack of emotional reaction after Luke's death. It just felt so... empty.

Yes the Luke argument is valid, but it’s also subjective. I like that this twist has added a layer of complexity to Luke that wasn’t there in the OT and lack of emotional reaction to Luke’s death ... are you serious? I was welling up and Luke is probably my least favourite of the big three. Rey and Leia both acknowledged it and the scene of him just watching that sun set. That’s heart and emotion right there.

Also, just some advice. I’d avoid using the term ‘Mary Sue’ if you want to be taken seriously. It’s a lazy tag that is being used incorrectly and carries gender specific baggage, whether you intend it to or not.

The majority of people who will watch a Star Wars film will be Star Wars fans. Star Wars didn't become the biggest franchise in the world without them, and it certainly didn't become the biggest in the world from curious onlookers who are complete strangers to the universe. What's disingenuous is separating "fan" from "general public".

Well, not necessarily. It’s like saying people who go and see a spider man movie are Spider-Man fans. I’ve seen them but I’d hardly classify myself as a fan.

Star Wars films are f****** blockbusters and by definition are intended to be seen by as many people as possible - and they do because they’re good, fun, space adventures that teach us a little about ourselves, our world but most of all send us to a galaxy far, far away for two hours. When the movie is over most people leave and get on with their lives.

Leaving the idiot fans like us to post endless pages of commentary, analysis, vitriol and ecstasy over whether a Porg is migratory.

 

[Kellythatsit]

That's a bit disingenuous there. The MAIN complaints -- from fans and analysts alike -- is that there are major problems with the script....the main plot and sub-plots especially, the story largely treading on water, that TLJ broke everything TFA tried to set up which is a fundamental faceplant in trilogy writing. Those are the main problems. And of course, there are all the other ones you mention and more, that are more the minor things in the movie, that people take umbrage with.

As in, it's a GIVEN now that the story/script is shit, and so no one really argues/debates that much. Instead, the thing that is causing the most debate back and forth is all the smaller details in the story, why they end up dominating most of the debates because they're interesting and thought-provoking topics....like Luke's arc, etc etc.

Nope not a GIVEN at all. I’ve seen numerous reviews and analysis that claim this to be a superbly scripted and conceived adventure.

Not saying I necessarily agree, however imo, they’re closer to the money than those claiming it’s “shit”.

Also, love how it’s a “face palm at trilogy writing” because there’s no fully conceived story from the beginning.

FFS, Lucas made the OT up as he went along. Only the prequels had any semblance of an overarching story from the get go. And look at the mess that left.

Facepalm indeed.

 

[Ry009]

Nope not a GIVEN at all. I’ve seen numerous reviews and analysis that claim this to be a superbly scripted and conceived adventure.

Not saying I necessarily agree, however imo, they’re closer to the money than those claiming it’s “shit”.

Also, love how it’s a “face palm at trilogy writing” because there’s no fully conceived story from the beginning.

FFS, Lucas made the OT up as he went along. Only the prequels had any semblance of an overarching story from the get go. And look at the mess that left.

Facepalm indeed.

There’s some great ideas that are woven between the film and a handful of really good scenes. However they are never fully fleshed out and few and far between.

The other 2/3rds of the film that IMO is average at best, is further amplified by the promise that the film showed.

Again, more power to the people that can look past the flaws and enjoyed the film, but for me; the horrible pacing, poor dialogue and poor writing took me out of the ‘escapist fun’ that these films are meant to provide.

I’ve seen remarks along social media that people criticising those that didn’t like it grouped together with people that hated TFA because it was rehashed. It has nothing to do with that, it was a poorly made film.

The fact it disregarded the film that immediately proceeded it was a direct kick in the nutcracker. It doesn’t need service the previous 6 main saga films, it should at the very least TFA, it didn’t.

 

[King Elvis]

Ham died and basically it’s never mentioned again.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Also, just some advice. I’d avoid using the term ‘Mary Sue’ if you want to be taken seriously. It’s a lazy tag that is being used incorrectly and carries gender specific baggage, whether you intend it to or not.

Just on this point, Mary Sue as a concept doesn't have gender baggage - the male equivalent is the Marty Stu

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MartyStu

Both terms refer to overpowered wish fulfilment, just one is female, one is male. Rey is probably closer to the Marty Stu type ("awe inspiring levels of power) or Purity Stu/ Sue

 

[Janus]

A good comment I read elsewhere on the internet.....

Again, what movie are these people watching?

The whole point of the movie is that Luke was seen as the 'personification of goodness and hope' - which is something that no human can live up to. Luke isn't perfect. He has a dark side too, just like everyone does. 'I failed because I was Luke Skywalker, Jedi Master. A legend.' He believed that he was exactly what this person said he was and had already faced the 'final test'.

Which is exactly what the issue was with the Jedi in the first place. Their whole system came crashing down because they were filled with hubris and didn't believe that a Jedi would fall to the dark side on their watch. It was a systemic flaw in the Jedi code as the Jedi had come to understand it, because like with any fundamentalist religion, the propensity is for those that don't find what they seek in balance to swing hard to extremes instead of striking balance.

But when you look at the symbol the Jedi used at the very beginning:

It shows that a Jedi needs to have balance - the dark side of their persona the adversary of the light side of the world around him/her, and the light side of their persona the adversary of the dark side of the world around him/her.

What good is love without the passion needed to want to change things for the better?

What good is justice without the power needed to follow through with that?

What good is strength without the peace needed to remain in control to fulfil that purpose?

'The Force is not a power people have. It's the tension between all living things.'

 

[Mootsy]

Finn and Rose kissed because they're both coloured.

Not all characters have to be super important like a jedi, Finn is about the equivalent of a droid character, in that he helps on missions and is good support, seems to be quite knowledgeable.

The actual idea of a stormtrooper defecting is kind of cool!

 

[Tuco]

Saw it last night with a neutral - my wife.

I hadn't discussed the film with her as I knew she wanted to see it.

Her reaction was this thread in microcosm

Blue milk scene - "you'v got to be kidding me, right?

Mary Poppins - "does she have some force powers?" (Note: she didn't even know Leia was Luke's sister. She had no issue with her flying through space. She just regarded this as force-iness).

Snoke's death: thought this was good.

Length of film: started yawning at the 1.20min mark.

Overall reaction: it was alright. Entertaining in parts. Thought it lacked a good story. Wouldn't tell people to see it.

Watching the film with someone who had little to no interest in SW was revealing. Almost none of the gut-churning issues even registered for her. The film was okay.

How did I feel? So many problems. Some still bother me. Some I've already forgotten. Occasionally the film bursts into 30 second stanzas of awesomeness that the entire film 'should' have been. That's it in a nutshell. This film is just too long and lacks sustain. Still happy to see it. Overall very inconsistent though.

 

[Janus]

Read this guys review, he knows what's what:

 

[Mootsy]

Saw it last night with a neutral - my wife.

Blue milk scene - "you'v got to be kidding me, right?

Mary Poppins - "does she have some force powers?" (Note: she didn't even know Leia was Luke's sister. She had no issue with her flying through space. She just regarded this as force-iness).

Some make believe in SW is fine...just watch the prequels and the originals.

As for the milk scene, it could be something that is written into jedi folklore books or something along those lines. Not glamorous, but obviously its a way to obtain food, lol.

Again, these films are all entertainment and make believe..

They aren't real life, obviously.

Again i say, stop overanalysing this stuff, it's meant to take you somewhere.