Play Nice The 'all things Carlton' mega-thread

[Ron The Bear]

But fiscal desperation and catastrophic list management are two very different issues, particularly in this day and age of billion dollar TV rights and corporate sponsorship.

One can be influenced by the other. It wasn't too long ago that we were drafting players on the strength of highlight tapes because the footy department had no money. Get the house in order off the field and the on-field follows.

Hard to imagine Carlton ever getting into the position Richmond was in. They have everything they need to succeed... except success.

 

[La Dispute]

Imagine trying to tell little Kaydyn/Jayce/Taila-Mae why you won’t be able to take them to the playground in the afternoon.

Surely the club needs to see this as a big business opportunity and start rolling out the anti-Carlton memberships as of Round 1 next year.

 

[Monkey King]

Actually I do, you’re inferring that “telling people they’re idiots” can only be done in the most literal sense. If I’d meant it in the most literal way I would’ve put quotes around the word. This post is actually a perfect summation of your posting here you’ve come in at 3am to post that someone has “low standards” (as if you are the basis for intellectual standards and decisions)

If you literally accuse someone of “telling people they’re idiots”, there’s no inference required to suggest that’s what you mean. This is language. If you mean something else, then write something else, otherwise communication will be pointlessly messy when someone calls on you to back up your claims.

Yes, there are standards of fairness and critical thinking. Believing something said by someone who has zero first hand knowledge and provides zero supporting evidence is a low standard that provides fertile ground for bias and error. This is not a groundbreaking concept.

And mate, I don’t live in Oz. I may be posting at 3am where you are, but it’s not where I am.

 

[GhostofJimJess]

One can be influenced by the other. It wasn't too long ago that we were drafting players on the strength of highlight tapes because the footy department had no money. Get the house in order off the field and the on-field follows.

Hard to imagine Carlton ever getting into the position Richmond was in. They have everything they need to succeed... except success.

Yep, no doubt that we've more than dabbled in fiscal and list management disaster over the last 30-40 years, often simultaneously. No doubt that the financial dramas of 1990 were a direct consequence of the terrible list management decisions of the 1980's. But anyway, about Carlton ...

 

[demontim27]

If you literally accuse someone of “telling people they’re idiots”, there’s no inference required to suggest that’s what you mean. This is language. If you mean something else, then write something else, otherwise communication will be pointlessly messy when someone calls on you to back up your claims.

Yes, there are standards of fairness and critical thinking. Believing something said by someone who has zero first hand knowledge and provides zero supporting evidence is a low standard that provides fertile ground for bias and error. This is not a groundbreaking concept.

And mate, I don’t live in Oz. I may be posting at 3am where you are, but it’s not where I am.

So doesn’t that go against your entire point? I’ve explained what I meant and how context was important. And you’ve said “I don’t care what you say you meant. I’m right about it”

Fairness and critical thinking? That would only apply in this situation if you honestly believe that every person tells the truth wit every one of their claims. The fact is (and even in court SOS denying it wouldn’t be “evidence”) that both sides have about the same amount of evidence. You believe SOS, which is fine, as I’ve said, countless times, but that doesn’t mean that the other argument is some fairy tale with no reasoning around it

Thankfully, you don’t actually get to determine what reasons are/aren’t valid. People have come to their own opinions, which is their right. You not liking it doesn’t change that.

 

[Tzatziki_Man]

My gosh they’re so shit I think they’ve surprised themselves. Shouldn’t have talked themselves up ahead of round 1 and how they’d spoil the flag unfurling

 

[JayJ20]

Thing about Carlton that perplexes me. What is their game style or brand of footy?

They're not defensive. Not attacking. Not a pressure side. Not contested. Not really uncontested either. Not fast. Not really a clearance team.

Brisbane have the attacking flair and midfield power. Gold Coast have their stoppage game and tackling pressure up. They need to find a brand and stick with it. Look lost at the moment.

 

[SickQwon]

Thing about Carlton that perplexes me. What is their game style or brand of footy?

They're not defensive. Not attacking. Not a pressure side. Not contested. Not really uncontested either. Not fast. Not really a clearance team.

Brisbane have the attacking flair and midfield power. Gold Coast have their stoppage game and tackling pressure up. They need to find a brand and stick with it. Look lost at the moment.

We had a solid style of gameplan last year. I don’t know what’s happened.

 

[Drewie11]

We had a solid style of gameplan last year. I don’t know what’s happened.

You guys did have a really good defensive style last year. I thought I heard at the start of the year that they were going to bring in some attacking style now.

It looks like you have lost the defensive style and don’t understand the attacking style either.

Hopefully with all injuries fixed up and a good preseason you guys can get some competitiveness back.

I think you guys will get a Priority pick also to help out

 

[PetterdHoisted]

How embarrassing! How embarrassed are you that you won a flag on the back of a priority pick in Rance.

End of round Priority pick, everyone had a chance to take the goat.

Tiges have had a couple leg-ups in the draft, but nowhere near enough to compensate the instances where we've been penalised.

Finishing last in 07 and Carlton gifted the first pick comes straight to mind..

 

[PonsfordMagpie]

The lack of competent players in the 22-27 age bracket is startling. I think their young kids are good, but they've got no support.

Not sure Bolton is the right guy in the long-term either.

 

[Golumless]

Just fold them and be done with it at this point.

There isn't much of a future there.

 

[SickQwon]

You guys did have a really good defensive style last year. I thought I heard at the start of the year that they were going to bring in some attacking style now.

It looks like you have lost the defensive style and don’t understand the attacking style either.

Hopefully with all injuries fixed up and a good preseason you guys can get some competitiveness back.

I think you guys will get a Priority pick also to help out

As a supporter, this is what I’m clutching onto. Praying that the return of Docherty (hopefully captain) and a stable defense will reminisce the old style defensive structure!

 

[Buzzasto DaSilva]

End of round Priority pick, everyone had a chance to take the goat.

Tiges have had a couple leg-ups in the draft, but nowhere near enough to compensate the instances where we've been penalised.

Finishing last in 07 and Carlton gifted the first pick comes straight to mind..

Sorry to derail the thread, but surely that nickname is a pisstake?

 

[JayJ20]

We had a solid style of gameplan last year. I don’t know what’s happened.

Yes you had a very solid defensive game plan last year. All that remains from it is the inability to kick goals.

 

[footyfan000001]

SOS has been too “GWS focused” and went for too many GWS players. Time to look elsewhere. Hasn’t worked.

 

[SterlingArcher]

Posted this in the gameday thread

I think realistically the best we can hope for is a Melbourne type rise.

2013 Dees won 2 games with 54%. Essentially GWS were a team we would be able to compete with currently so I think it's fair to say we would be similar to that Dees side. Despite us having 2016 and 2017 as well.

We will be looking at, going well, 2014 was a bottom 2 year for Dees (2019), crept to 13th in 2015 (2020), 2016 was competitive in 10th (2021), 2017 was top 8 material (2022), 2018 was top 8 (2023).

Best case.

We have to get rid of our Terlich, Jones, Byrnes, Rodan, Sylvia, Blease, McKenzie, Macdonald types yet.

For context, they didn't have Oliver, Petracca, Brayshaw, Frost, Neal-Bulllen, Oscar McDonald, Melksham, Hibberd, Lewis, Lever on their list back then. That's the sort of additions we would be looking at to make it to lower reaches of the 8 by 2023. Pretty decent haul by Melbourne to be honest that would be reasonably difficult to replicate.

Some might think 5 years is a bit unrealistic. But delving deeper - in 2013 Melbourne had Matt Jones (22 games - 4th in the B&F), Dean Terlich (20 - 3rd), Colin Sylvia (19 - 5th), Shannon Byrnes (17 - 15th), Aaron Davey (20 - 12th), Jordie McKenzie (12 - 16th), Jimmy Toumpas (14 - 20th), Luke Tapscott (16 - 17th), Chris Dawes (12), Jack Fitzpatrick (11), Sam Blease (10), Dan Nicholson (11) getting regular games or at least half a season as guys you would not rate as AFL level.

Further, they also had Garland (21 - 2nd), Howe (21 - 9th), Trengove (20 - 8th), Dunn (18 - 6th), Watts (18 - 11th), Frawley (17 - 7th), Grimes (15 - 13th) who are/were AFL level (when fit) and for whatever reason left Melbourne over the last 4 years.

The list of Jones, Terlich, Sylvia, Byrnes, Davey, McKenzie, Toumpas, Tapscott, Dawes is surely comparable to the deadwood of Graham, Shaw, O'Shea, Mullett, Kerridge, Jones, Wright, Lobbe plus the few others on both sides I've missed.

The next list of Garland, Howe, Trengove, Dunn, Watts, Frawley, Grimes is surely comparable to the list of Simpson, Murphy, Kreuzer, E.Curnow, Thomas who due to age won't be on the list in 5 years - plus Trengove and Grimes we don't have an appropriate comparison for yet.

But we have to nail the next 3-4 off-seasons and ensure Docherty, Williamson, Plowman, Marchbank, Weitering get games together as a back 6, Cripps and Curnow don't get injured, and we get a ruck and a couple of 2nd tier mids and flankers for depth.

But yeah I think that's a reasonable comparison considering the absolute pits Melbourne were and we are, and how long it takes to turn things around when you are picking up VFL standard alsorans to try keep your head above water.

 

[SterlingArcher]

SOS has been too “GWS focused” and went for too many GWS players. Time to look elsewhere. Hasn’t worked.

Still the most ridiculous myth in football. Our GWS players are the best value we've had in the off-seasons outside of Cripps and Curnow for picks 13 and 12.

We've made plenty of list management errors in the past 10, 5, 3 years but getting Marchbank, Pickett, Plowman, Kennedy plus some depth for a few 2nd rounders and having to take on Palmer for a year to allow GWS to give us a discount is not one of them.

 

[SickQwon]

Still the most ridiculous myth in football. Our GWS players are the best value we've had in the off-seasons outside of Cripps and Curnow for picks 13 and 12.

We've made plenty of list management errors in the past 10, 5, 3 years but getting Marchbank, Pickett, Plowman, Kennedy plus some depth for a few 2nd rounders and having to take on Palmer for a year to allow GWS to give us a discount is not one of them.

Asides from replacing the list with youth, there’s nothing more they could’ve done.

 

[GhostofJimJess]

Still the most ridiculous myth in football.

I agree. You got most of them for a steal.

 

[Randomizor]

Relegation time

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Too much trouble to put up a fight today.
Screw you Carlton.

 

[simmo97]

Melbourne 2013 2W-20L 54.07%
Carlton 2018 1W-16L 59.60%

 

[Randomizor]

Melbourne 2013 2W-20L 54.07%
Carlton 2018 1W-16L 59.60%

That’s horrifically bad

 

[chunkylover53]

Too much trouble to put up a fight today.
Screw you Carlton.

Mate, they genuinely tried today that's the scary part.

Did their best to apply as much pressure as possible and rebound hard but they'd miss a target and it would come straight back over their heads. Didn't matter as we were getting thumped anyway but went down to 1 on the bench.

Think the coach has had the year from hell - in terms of his own form as well as the players available for selection, the inconsistency of players in and out means nobody has any clue what's going on with the game plan, and of course a lot of our players are really bad.