Bluemour Discussion Thread IX

[Pafloyul]

Classic Carlton fan refusing to rate any other player. He is not their 5th-6th, he’s about their 3rd behind Kelly and Coniglio and probably just in front of Ward - those names are also no spuds. Yes, and he’s contracted for next year and would probably net them pretty handy compo?? You pay overs for contracted players even if it is their last year. Especially if it’s a free hit like a priority pick.

It isn't a free hit, it's earned for being crap and we get to use it how we wish. You're thinking in fatalistic terms.

 

[DangerousD]

Just take away all compo

Pretty sure that would make an already lop sided system a lot worse.

 

[chunkylover53]

Why would we pay market price for a player we don't need?

Our task is to convince Shiel to come to us; offer him whatever money we want to make us his preferred destination, and to ensure that he understands that whatever we say to GWS we value his services and his commitment.

Our narrative as it were is that we really don't need the bloke. We can keep going to the draft, pick up the next Shiel for the cost merely of a draft pick and develop him ourselves. As far as we're concerned, he's already on the list. We can go to the draft and pick up Walsh and the bloke'll be smashing it inside 6 months, we can trade down the draft and grab Smith or Rozee - depending on where our pick falls after trading down - and we'll have a dynamic young midfield forward presence that we may need more than we need Shiel.

They need to continue their program of trading out talent to get in draft picks. It's what makes them relevant, keeps them in the hunt for finals and keeps them awash in quality. They need the picks more than we need Shiel; they cannot afford to bottom out or to not win a GF before their players opt out.

And, I remind you, we have entirely the option of telling them, on top of not needing him at all, they could lose him for a second round pick if they couldn't match a FA offer for him next year. They have a choice; take what's on offer in a strong draft (whether that be pick 19 + pick 23, we manipulate our seconds in order to secure pick 9-10, or offer our 2019 first + a second) or risk him going for what could be effectively - pending their results next year - be a late second. Their cap is tight; there is a reason why, every single season, they have had to offload players to give themselves a little leeway.

Simply put, there are many ways we could play this situation, and in the event of the AFL being stupid enough to provide us with picks 1+3 offering pick 3 would be the wrong move. They'd take it and run.

We must be watching different 2018’s. From my understanding we have won 2 games, have the most shallow midfield in the league and are set to win another spoon. Our own list manager has gone on record saying we seriously lack any talent in the 24+ bracket - and your solution is to just keep getting more 18 yr olds in and pretend we’re in a better position than GWS.

If GWS are desperate to offload Shiel and relieve their cap then I’m sure they will get another suitor for Shiel who will pony up more than 2 late first rounders.

We basically don’t agree on anything so best not continue this further.

 

[Gethelred]

We must be watching different 2018’s. From my understanding we have won 2 games, have the most shallow midfield in the league and are set to win another spoon. Our own list manager has gone on record saying we seriously lack any talent in the 24+ bracket - and your solution is to just keep getting more 18 yr olds in and pretend we’re in a better position than GWS.

If GWS are desperate to offload Shiel and relieve their cap then I’m sure they will get another suitor for Shiel who will pony up more than 2 late first rounders.

We basically don’t agree on anything so best not continue this further.

Cool bananas.

 

[CrippasHeavyLoad]

Why would the Hawks give Roughy the boot? He is still a decent player and they are all of a sudden back in the premiership conversation

Tom Lynch’s arrival

 

[WeninRome]

Not anything confirmed, he said he would be shocked, which I think means that he thinks that it is due. If he was more certain, I would take it more seriously

Once again, I think opinion was playing a factor in what he said

If you read through his tweets then you will see that he says that he has mail on this.

 

[Pafloyul]

We must be watching different 2018’s. From my understanding we have won 2 games, have the most shallow midfield in the league and are set to win another spoon. Our own list manager has gone on record saying we seriously lack any talent in the 24+ bracket - and your solution is to just keep getting more 18 yr olds in and pretend we’re in a better position than GWS.

If GWS are desperate to offload Shiel and relieve their cap then I’m sure they will get another suitor for Shiel who will pony up more than 2 late first rounders.

We basically don’t agree on anything so best not continue this further.

Best not; Gethelred wants to win and you want to stave off defeat, two entirely different philosophies.

 

[kjr8]

Ive been barracking for giants since kelly rumours started.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[AB_Blue]

Tom Lynch’s arrival

So if Roughead isn’t leaving Hawks does that rule them out of Lynch?

 

[Toddski]

The early PP was never proven to be a great unfair advantage, teams weren't getting two early picks and going on to dominate, perhaps Hawthorn but that's only part of their story. The way I see it is that betting agencies squealed a bit because teams played for the PP a bit. Tanking never affected the outcome of the season and rarely happened anyway. The AFL have taken so much from bottom sides and given so much to top sides the last few seasons, it needs to look into giving a bit back. We can get back up without a PP but it would be nice to have more guarantee, security and to do it quicker. I think a pick around the 10 mark is fair but the AFL need to look at ways to better resource very weak sides.

Would not surprise me if the AFL are taking notice because one of their projects is on the verge of falling over. Can't give the Gold Coast assistance without giving Carlton assistance so there is always that.

The system is very much like the US economy at the moment. The rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. The poor teams are simply not getting the assistance they need. People crying about priority picks fail to realise how advantageous it is for the successful teams with Free Agency. Furthermore, they also forget that any young talent entering into a struggling team will inevitably suffer from a lack of leadership and strong culture thus lowering their chances of flourishing.

Priority picks should certainly be brought back as they are needed now more than ever before. It's one extra 18 year old kid for crying out loud, it's not a guaranteed super star like a Josh Kelly being given to a club.

 

[CrippasHeavyLoad]

Free Agents or Future Picks. No problem

Neale, May, Gray & Wingard are just some of the FA's available next year

Neale would look very good in blue

 

[King Cripps]

It is a real possibility that us and GC will have the first 5 picks in the national draft. The AFL are really concerned about the uncompetivenes of both clubs and when you counter that FA market does not favour the bottom clubs they will use it to their discretion to help these clubs.

 

[The Bighouse]

Priority picks should certainly be brought back as they are needed now more than ever before. It's one extra 18 year old kid for crying out loud, it's not a guaranteed super star like a Josh Kelly being given to a club.

Been said before re: PP’s if you’ve been out of the finals for so long, tend to agree, it’s too long a burn.

If it’s pick 2 PP, it could have been Josh Kelly.

 

[gbatman]

The system is very much like the US economy at the moment. The rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. The poor teams are simply not getting the assistance they need. People crying about priority picks fail to realise how advantageous it is for the successful teams with Free Agency. Furthermore, they also forget that any young talent entering into a struggling team will inevitably suffer from a lack of leadership and strong culture thus lowering their chances of flourishing.

Priority picks should certainly be brought back as they are needed now more than ever before. It's one extra 18 year old kid for crying out loud, it's not a guaranteed super star like a Josh Kelly being given to a club.

People don't realise that it's so much harder to rebuild now than it was 10 years ago.

Free agency keeps top sides topped up, forcing trades or just flat out leaving via FA.
Two extra teams means picks are 18 apart and not 16, this adds up and really effects later picks in the draft.
Two extra teams means there's less mature gold in state leagues, you just don't seem to see the amount or quality of mature rookie listed players coming through.
No more early priority picks. PPs hard to get.
Game has become harder running and more physical meaning young players take longer to develop and impact.

You consider we are doing a full rebuild, what we have achieved is outstanding considering the resources clubs like us have lost.

I'd bring priority picks back for clubs who are down the bottom because their list is genuinely weak. Not for clubs who just slide and land there, clubs who are rebuilding and need to build a list.

The balance needs to be brought back.

I'd bring a PP that's between pick 10-14 - Draft a gun 18 year old or big trade.
A PP somewhere in the 3rd round - Encourages trading.
Lower the total player payments significantly - Teams with weak lists would now be able to open the cap right up and this allows them into the FA market and would also open the door for trading.

This wouldn't create unbeatable superpowers. This would give real bad sides the necessary boost so they aren't out of finals for 6-10 years and get them competing again.

It's not about handouts or forcing clubs to get their shit together. It's about giving clubs the necessary resources to recover and get going again in an acceptable time frame.

 

[TD2010]

If we get a high PP it will be because free agency doesn't work for teams at the bottom. No one wants to come to a team re-building. AFL see this and don't want perpetual re-building.

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[BluesRule]

The system is very much like the US economy at the moment. The rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. The poor teams are simply not getting the assistance they need. People crying about priority picks fail to realise how advantageous it is for the successful teams with Free Agency. Furthermore, they also forget that any young talent entering into a struggling team will inevitably suffer from a lack of leadership and strong culture thus lowering their chances of flourishing.

Priority picks should certainly be brought back as they are needed now more than ever before. It's one extra 18 year old kid for crying out loud, it's not a guaranteed super star like a Josh Kelly being given to a club.

Totally agree. Free agents have shown they want to go to clubs with a chance of a Flag. And the leading clubs pay nothing to the lower clubs (no rebalance through the draft/players anymore). Plus the magically created compo picks penalise everybody else in the competition. Our system is broken.

 

[Mr_Plow]

The system is very much like the US economy at the moment. The rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. The poor teams are simply not getting the assistance they need. People crying about priority picks fail to realise how advantageous it is for the successful teams with Free Agency. Furthermore, they also forget that any young talent entering into a struggling team will inevitably suffer from a lack of leadership and strong culture thus lowering their chances of flourishing.

Priority picks should certainly be brought back as they are needed now more than ever before. It's one extra 18 year old kid for crying out loud, it's not a guaranteed super star like a Josh Kelly being given to a club.

Moreover, I cannot believe that some people want to consider abolishing compensation picks for free agents leaving.

The system is broken; equilibrium in this chemical reaction lies so far toward the established teams that it's ridiculous.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

So not only does FA help the top clubs, you want to take away compensation from the bottom clubs as well. Bottom clubs can't afford to rebuild by spending a fortune on one player. Players leaving for success are after more than money and they can affect the culture of the club if they force them to stay. It's lose/lose for bottom sides without compensation.

No they can't afford to match bids. Eg Lynch bid would be matched so they force a trade.
Gaff goes to St Kilda for say $1.3mil West Coast can't match so no compo. If he goes to another top team like Geelong for $800k than they could match meaning a top team doesn't get a freebie.

 

[agro]

Jon Ralph doing his best (just now on FOXFOOTY) to get Shiel to the Drug Cheats.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Pretty sure that would make an already lop sided system a lot worse.

I'm not sure how. Top teams most likely won't be able to match bids on stars bottom teams will.
This means if a top side get a FA from a bottom side they'll still have to trade, if a bottom team gets one from a top side than most likely the top teams won't be able to match the bids.
Unless a team has totally stuffed up player payments.

 

[Salt Lake Cities]

So why does Jon Ralph say it is good news? Good news for who?

Him

 

[Salt Lake Cities]

Jon Ralph doing his best (just now on FOXFOOTY) to get Shiel to the Drug Cheats.

How excited was he!!

 

[DangerousD]

I'm not sure how. Top teams most likely won't be able to match bids on stars bottom teams will.
This means if a top side get a FA from a bottom side they'll still have to trade, if a bottom team gets one from a top side than most likely the top teams won't be able to match the bids.
Unless a team has totally stuffed up player payments.

Its quite rare for good/great players to leave strong clubs and when/if they do its very rare that they go to a bottom club. There is nothing stopping GC from matching any offer that comes in for Lynch or any other bottom club losing a FA, to me your idea strips the bottom club of their golden ticket.

I would much rather see free agency change a little so that clubs in the top 6 or 4 have to actually give up a pick to acquire the player, after all FA is suppose to be about players getting to choose their work place and not about clubs getting something for free.

 

[Pafloyul]

If you think about it, if we were to overpay for Shiel a year early, we just play into the hands of the system we are all beginning to loathe. Carlton are on a hiding to nothing, we get criticised for not utilising the draft and we get criticised for trading into it. I'm well past wanting to subsist, I want to do this properly and make the bastards eat their words when we come good.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

The system is very much like the US economy at the moment. The rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. The poor teams are simply not getting the assistance they need. People crying about priority picks fail to realise how advantageous it is for the successful teams with Free Agency. Furthermore, they also forget that any young talent entering into a struggling team will inevitably suffer from a lack of leadership and strong culture thus lowering their chances of flourishing.

Priority picks should certainly be brought back as they are needed now more than ever before. It's one extra 18 year old kid for crying out loud, it's not a guaranteed super star like a Josh Kelly being given to a club.

How many FA's are running around in top sides?