Bluemour Discussion Thread XI - Facts Not Welcome

[jd2010]

Ask Sam Docherty about his decision...

Who else was knees deep into him

 

[ITCHY EYEBALLS]

Not going to happen.....Carlton family, there's no way he goes there, its pretty simple.
We aren't talking about punters, we are talking die hard supporters - unless the money was ridiculous it wont happen (& it wont be as we will be prepared to pay)....People should chill, out its going to happen

With all due respect HF, I don't think who his family follows means diddly squat.
Tom Lynch's family are fanatical Collingwood, yet it's pretty much agreed upon that he's going to Richmond.
If he turns around and chooses Collingwood against all popular opinion, then i'll agree that you may have a point re Shiel.

 

[Jeremias]

Who else was knees deep into him

Essendon and the Bulldogs were both very keen.

 

[HarryFlashman]

I can see the likelihood of us offering 850k per year over 5 years and St Kilda have been reported as offering $1.3m over 6 years. That sort of stuff can be a gamebreaker. Nobody here wants us paying that sort of coin surely?

If its all about the dollars we are screwed, however its also about the perception & the message we push - if that's all we offer- we have to explain why.
If we come up with a good reason (which we have) it makes St Kilda look like amateurs & that argument can be pretty convincing.
I'm happy to stump up a little more, as long as our leadership group & talent is happy with that - i dont want to see jealousy or infighting that invariably happens with huge contracts - we are building something that will be bloody hard to keep together, if everyone doesn't buy in we are screwed- we wont be able to afford our talent when it comes on.

 

[Dooky]

Who else was knees deep into him

From memory dogs and dons?

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Saints offering ridiculous $$. Just reeks of desperation. It's crazy what ive heard they're offering, we won't match that.

Hopefully he still chooses us, our offer ain't too bad either...

 

[HarryFlashman]

With all due respect HF, I don't think who his family follows means diddly squat.
Tom Lynch's family are fanatical Collingwood, yet it's pretty much agreed upon that he's going to Richmond.
If he turns around and chooses Collingwood against all popular opinion, then i'll agree that you may have a point re Shiel.

my argument was all centered around *
& I proper ******* hate * so do most of us, i dont think there's one Carlton supporter that wasn't appalled about what they did as a club & you just wouldn't want your kid going there if theirs other good options.
Between us & them (& the moneys similar) IMO there no way in hell he would choose them.
Im really talking about our deep seated hatred of * you just wouldnt make your family have to like them

 

[tencentpiece]

I'd be surprised if we end up with both Setterfield and Shiel, will most likely be one or the other. Will depend on the decision Shiel makes.

 

[KohPhi]

In essence you are right , definitely on the historically successful piece , 16 flags etc etc - I don't think there is much credence in that. Although I still think there is a draw to playing with big clubs with big supporter bases 90k+ in a H&A game type thing - look at how easily Collingwood bring in players in recent years vs Saints, Dogs etc.

But I think it's also case-specific especially when the decision is line ball. You can't predict what might tug at the heartstrings nor what an impact a couple of club legends like Silvagni and Judd may have if there was already a fondness there to begin with.

Using examples of Cripps, Kreuzer, and Williamson is just stupid because they don't find themselves in the position of having to choose a club, i.e. they are happily contracted and not willingly looking elsewhere.

Ask Sam Docherty about his decision...

http://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/2015-10-14/top-trades-8-sam-docherty

You have inadvertently backed up my point!! Using Cripps, Williamson and Kreuze as examples IS STUPID! It highlights the naivety of posters who truly believe that barracking for a club as a kid plays a major role in choosing a Club.
Doch followed the Blues, correct. But if his contract that we offered was not to his liking, if another Club offered substantially more, or a longer deal OR even more importantly, the Lions had a culture AT THE TIME that he wanted to be a part of, the result could have been much different.
All the planets aligned and he found himself playing for the club he supported that is all.
For every Docherty, there are dozens of Treloar's(Magpies), Prestia's(Demons) and dare I say it Judds(Demons) where the pull of who they followed as a kid had no bearing when they came home.

 

[JustaBattler]

I can see the likelihood of us offering 850k per year over 5 years and St Kilda have been reported as offering $1.3m over 6 years. That sort of stuff can be a gamebreaker. Nobody here wants us paying that sort of coin surely?

I'll have a go at answering the question this way....

Imagine a Carlton side with Shiel + Coniglio in it overnight - how much is that worth to the developing players/supporters/coach/membership/game attendances etc etc etc...

you go from irrelevant laughing stock to a genuine force overnight - it is the reason why Hawforn and Geelong pay what it takes to get who they want.

We made a mistake last year getting outbid for Devon Smith in particular - should never happen again.

Real competition is now Melbourne with its hugely powerful young list
Richmond with few holes in it - getting plugged by Lynch
Collingwood now able to fix their defensive weakness with May.

Carlton cant allow Shiel to go to Hawforn or EssenDONE - if he goes to St Kilda instead of us it would be next best outcome.

Putting a list together is only half the story - understanding what you can do to not allow your competitors to score a sustainable competitive advantage over you is just as important if you want to be competitive...

On the other hand if the Club is prepared to wear another year or two of draft and disastrous losses....then sure dont 'overpay' whatever that means. Chances are then in due course - that you lose Charlie and Cripps and X + Y+Z as they develop enough to be bid for by more 'successful' clubs.....

 

[Tushay]

They’re throwing a million darts at once hoping for a bullseye, land one ditch the other

I suspect that all clubs are throwing plenty of darts.

If you finished top 6 and you're throwing plenty of darts you're "forensic".

If you finished midway and you're throwing plenty of darts you're "ambitious".

If you finished bottom 6 and you're throwing plenty of darts you're "desperate".

 

[Nori]

I'd be surprised if we end up with both Setterfield and Shiel, will most likely be one or the other. Will depend on the decision Shiel makes.

Then I want Setterfield and another gun midfielder for similar money.

 

[thylacine60]

fries with that?

 

[KohPhi]

I can see the likelihood of us offering 850k per year over 5 years and St Kilda have been reported as offering $1.3m over 6 years. That sort of stuff can be a gamebreaker. Nobody here wants us paying that sort of coin surely?

Exactly! In this scenario, if we dont match, or come close,he becomes a Saint.. regardless of their 's**t' culture, solitary flag and numerous spoons.

If we do match, then watch him pull on the jumper and talk about how great it is to play for his boyhood Club and how happy his family are..

 

[BrisbaneCFC]

Bullshit. Shiel doesn't ask for more money. Shiel lets his manager do the negotiating.

The manager comes to us and says "Look, Dylan is really keen on you guys, but earning an extra $1.5mil over the next 6 years is something he really needs to consider. I know you've been saving up for your big recruitment push, if you can come up a little, or add an extra year on the end, I think that would seal it for Dylan."

The whole thing is negotiation. I'd also be astounded if we haven't allowed for some extra inflation of our current offer for this very purpose.

Its the same thing no matter who is asking it. My point was if Shiel takes the Saints offer, the seemingly much larger Saints offer, then it is very easy to argue money is his motivation for a move, not wanting to play for the club that he grew up supporting. I certainly wouldn't eb interested in a guy who is motivated by dollar signs.

 

[BrisbaneCFC]

I'd be surprised if we end up with both Setterfield and Shiel, will most likely be one or the other. Will depend on the decision Shiel makes.

Tend to agree with this.

 

[Arr0w]

If Shiel leaves GWS, it will not be for money alone.

Not worried about the Saints, more worried about contending sides

 

[ESKIE]

Bloooohooohooomours !!

 

[Weitbricks]

I'd be surprised if we end up with both Setterfield and Shiel, will most likely be one or the other. Will depend on the decision Shiel makes.

 

[smashbox gill]

I'd be surprised if we end up with both Setterfield and Shiel, will most likely be one or the other. Will depend on the decision Shiel makes.

No!!!!!!! That is upsetting

 

[blueballs99]

Its the same thing no matter who is asking it. My point was if Shiel takes the Saints offer, the seemingly much larger Saints offer, then it is very easy to argue money is his motivation for a move, not wanting to play for the club that he grew up supporting. I certainly wouldn't eb interested in a guy who is motivated by dollar signs.

Every single Player is motivated by dollar signs ..wake up

 

[BIuebagger]

But according to Hannebery, the Saints have an exciting young list/bona fide stars like Membrey and Gresham? Why the hell would Shiel choose us, he's definitely going to the Saints.

But seriously, I hope he makes the right call. Cashola is important as a factor, but so is work environment and job satisfaction. McGovern knows where it's at. Lets hope these two GWS boys are on the same wavelength. We have some serious pull in selling the vision of the club atm in SOS and Juddy specifically, lets hope they can get these guys on board.

 

[Arr0w]

Every single Player is motivated by dollar signs ..wake up

Not every player, in fact the opposite

 

[tencentpiece]

One last note, whoever is talking about seven year deals for 1.1mill - 1.3mill has been smoking crack and lots of it.

Our offer isn't anything like that and I doubt saints would be offering that either

 

[F_therest]

Money offered is ridiculous

What annoys me is saints offering ridiculous money, reported around 1.3 million over 6 years could either force our offer up or we lose Shiel to them.

Annoying because saints are stupid to offer that much and they are the type of team to maybe make 8th and finals but not go deep into September...they are screwing themselves but in the process we get screwed since we miss out on him.