Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[rbartlett]

Leo Phillip Tilley - a Thirds player for Richmond in 1949, died the following year, aged 21 in a motorcycle collision.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article244346629
I've found his death notice http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article244346798, and his reference in BDM (event: 13826),but I can't find his birth notice in BDM.
Am I doing something wrong with the search?

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Leo Phillip Tilley - a Thirds player for Richmond in 1949, died the following year, aged 21 in a motorcycle collision.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article244346629
I've found his death notice http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article244346798, and his reference in BDM (event: 13826),but I can't find his birth notice in BDM.
Am I doing something wrong with the search?

He was born too late to be in Vic BDM index online
The Historical index has entries relating to:

• births in Victoria from 1853 to 1917

There is a family tree on Ancestry that has a DOB of 3 Oct 1929

 

[rbartlett]

There is a family tree on Ancestry that has a DOB of 3 Oct 1929

Oh, thanks for that WHL! Because I had nothing on him. Didn't even know he died young until I was searching through Trove tonight

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Pat McNulty is credited with a single game for Carlton in 1902

Listed DOB of 24 April 1876 corresponds with Vic BDM record 1876/23006
Family name MCNULTY
Given names Patrick
Father's name Michael Henry
Mother's name Sarah (Keogh)
Place of birth FITZ
...and this also agrees with details on Blueseum

I was looking for his death record and came across the following Vic BDM death record 1899/15175 which provides a challenge:
Family name MCNULTY
Given names Pat Jos
Father's name Mcnulty Mich Hy
Mother's name Sarah (Keagle)
Place of death Melb W
Age 23

This Pat McNulty can't be the one who played in 1901 if he died in 1899. I can find almost nothing to identify the player McNulty - no first name or even an initial. Surname appears in Herald line up on the day he is credited with a game and in squad listing the day before he appears as McAnulty.

Can also find nothing to match existing DOD for the player of 6 October 1904 but strongly suspect current records are inaccurate.

 

[rbartlett]

Pat McNulty is credited with a single game for Carlton in 1902

I wonder how Stephen Rodgers chose McNulty' first name ? May be worth asking if it is in their clearance book.

 

[35Daicos]

This story, which includes news of a player name change, came out a few years back: http://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/2016-01-18/patty-joins-ranks-of-carltons-great-fallen

Carlton can now add a 12th name to its Great Fallen of 1914-1918 – the name of its one-game “lost soldier” Albert (“Alby”) Henry Paterson some 96 years after his untimely passing.

The breakthrough comes by way of an email recently forwarded to the football club by David Paterson, to whom Alby was a great uncle.

Now domiciled in Tura Beach, a suburb of Merimbula on New South Wales’ South Coast, David wrote to ask whether Alby could be recognised as a former Carlton footballer who made the ultimate sacrifice in wartime. Alby’s service record, it seems, was not known to this club’s or the AFL’s historians, as his surname was incorrectly recorded as Patterson with two ts rather than one.

David advised that Alby was born in the old goldmining town of Happy Valley, just south of Ballarat near the town of Smythesdale in 1875. Happy Valley no longer exists.

Recruited from nearby Ascot Vale, Alby represented Carlton in the then VFA years through the winters of 1892-’96, and turned out for his one and only League appearance for the old dark Navy Blues in the second round of 1897.

The 1897 Carlton player who has been known as Alby Patterson should be Alby Paterson.

It looks like this hasn't been passed on to AFL Tables and AustralianFootball.com
*Paul* Oliver Gigacz

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/A/Alby_Patterson.html || https://australianfootball.com/players/player/alby+patterson/869

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Alby_Paterson

 

[rbartlett]

In Rounds 3 & 4 of 1898 on 21st/28th May, William “Poss” Watson is recorded as playing for Essendon (and scoring a goal in the second game according to The Argus report although not the official record). Some sources only credit him with playing Round 3. (Essendon FC site & AFL Encyclopedia record one appearance, but AFL tables & AustralianFootball.com record two)

William “Poss” Watson did play for Essendon from 1891-1894 before heading to Western Australia. From 1895 -1899 he was captain of Fremantle in the WAFA competition and played in each of the first ten Rounds of 1898, including a match on the second day he is credited as playing for Essendon. He is mentioned in match reports for the WAFA matches on 14 May and 28 May. (note WAFA did not schedule matches for 21 May, but he is reported as having been sick in this report of the 28 May game)

It seems highly improbable Poss Watson played in the VFL for Essendon:

• He definitely did not play for Essendon in Round 4
• I can't locate any evidence of him travelling between WA and Victoria for Round 3
• In theory at least he would have needed a permit
• A prominent player returning would have been likely to attract some comment and I can see no mention in any newspapers

It seems likely that the Watson who played for Essendon in 1898 was someone else. There is very little evidence to identify who this player actually was.

Rodgers from AFL has emailed:

"
I think we finished off, last year, on the case of a man known as Abe "Dukie" Watson - South Melbourne goalkicker of 1893/94
(where he's really prominent, in the newspapers), ex Napier Imperials; then has 1895 in Perth. (Greg Wardell-Johnson, WA man, confirmed this for us, but wasn't able to add anything further.)
Failing all else, I'm hoping there's a strong chance he's Essendon's A.Watson of 1898."

AFL obviously trying to identify who the 1898 Watson is. If anyone connects Dukie to this A. Watson please advise.

 

[35Daicos]

The official records have Bill Donald playing 2 games for Carlton in 1927 and 1 game that year for Fitzroy wearing the number 7 (at both clubs). AFL Tables and AustralianFootball.com have this, and The Encyclopedia says he wore #7 for Fitzroy. The AFL Historical Statistics site had him in #7 at both clubs.

Blueseum says he wore #4 for the club. The Football Record Rd. 6 1927 has Donald as #4 (though he didn't play in that game) - it has Joe Kelly as #7:

AFL Tables has both Donald and Kelly wearing number 7 in the two games Donald played for Carlton!: https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1927/030519270514.html || https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1927/030919270521.html

For the one game Donald played for Fitzroy it seems he was wearing number 2: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205804730 || https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206177832

He incurred an eight-match suspension for charging from that one and only game at Fitzroy!!

*Paul*
Oliver Gigacz

 

[The Blueseum]

Thanks to the work of 35Daicos and some further work from the Blueseum the AFL records and Blueseum records have been changed for a certain player.

Inception blue, Tom Sweetman has now been changed to Charlie Sweatman.

This will take effect through all official records.

http://www.blueseum.org/Charlie+Sweatman


This was some of the proof that was used to make the case, since then the AFL has found further evidence.

-------------
There is no evidence that Thomas Sweetman played football for Carlton from 1897-99?

I have looked on Trove (only references to Sweetman with no initials) and in pennings material and cannot find anything.

On the other hand there is a fellow called Charles Herbert Sweatman.

Born in 1873 BDM record, https://my.rio.bdm.vic.gov.au/efami...givenName=Charles Herbert&familyName=SWEATMAN

C.H. Sweetman was cleared from Carlton to Essendon Town in 1900.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/9539779

He played there for a few years before being cleared to Boulder City in WA in 1905.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/89204854

Here C.H. Sweatman pictured standing next to J. Pender. Pender and 'Sweetman' played together in the Carlton backline in 1898.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206697143

1897 Sweetman at Carlton from Ascot Vale.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/9156589
C. H. Sweatman from Ascot Vale.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/1603755
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/160256416

 

[killer]

I don't doubt they are the same person

your a 100% on the spelling of that name ?
i know of 100s of people with the name "Sweetman"
but none of the other

 

[The Blueseum]

I don't doubt they are the same person

your a 100% on the spelling of that name ?
i know of 100s of people with the name "Sweetman"
but none of the other

Sweatman while not a common surname was very well represented in trove and official BDM records. The family has many references and were a well known family in Ascot Vale at the turn of the century. Charlie's line dies out with his grand-daughter Zena who was born in 1920 and there is not record of any children. The Sweatman's were a large family and other descendants from cousins would exist today.

On the other hand Sweetman was a much more common surname, but there is no evidence whatsoever that a T Sweetman played for Carlton. The mispelling is likely a result of the different commonalities between the two surnames. He was even referred to as Sweetman many times while playing for Boulder City.

The AFL have reviewed the evidence and decided that the player in question was Charlie Sweatman not Tom Sweetman.

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

Sweatman @ Carlton

You probably already have it, but just in case, I came across this article whilst looking for something else.

Sportsman 14 Jun 1898 Pg 6:

"Sweatman came out with some splendid defensive work for Carlton against Fitzroy"

 

[35Daicos]

According to AustralianFootball.com and Wikipedia (and I presume the AFL's records), Fred Marriott (Carlton 1911) died 13 May 1954. A Frederick Marriott died in Queensland on that date, but it seems this was a different person, and the Carlton player died (also in Qld.) on 13 May 1967 - quite an amazing coincidence, really! From Qld. BDM:

This story says of Frederick Marriott: "Malvern, Victoria was given as the birthplace of Frederick Marriott on February 14, 1886 the son of Frederick and Sarah, nee Osborne, Marriott." and "In 1963 the Electoral Roll records Frederick living at Eventide, Rockhampton. Frederick Marriott died on 13 May 1967 in Queensland."

He was buried at North Rockhampton Cemetery:

 

[rbartlett]

Some BF History Thread research published on AFL.Com
https://www.afl.com.au/news/2019-03-19/ablett-snr-adds-to-goal-tally-23-years-after-retiring

 

[Gibbsy]

Some BF History Thread research published on AFL.Com
https://www.afl.com.au/news/2019-03-19/ablett-snr-adds-to-goal-tally-23-years-after-retiring

I love this sort of stuff. (original post here)

As cool as it would be to 'find' an extra goal for Nuts, that mystique of him finishing his career on 1299 goals is much the same as the Don finishing with an average of 99.94, imo...

 

[*Paul*]

So did Stephen find this independently, or after it was pointed out by one of my readers? I was going to email the guy and say "Looky here, you are famous"

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

So did Stephen find this independently, or after it was pointed out by one of my readers? I was going to email the guy and say "Looky here, you are famous"

Hi Paul - no I didn't find this independently - I just passed on a link to the post you made late last year on this thread to Col H. (along with about 20 other changes from this thread). I think things must have got a bit confused from there b/c you were clear that it came from someone else contacting you!

The next thing I knew my name was put into a news article (no-one spoke to me about it) which gave me credit for something I didn't do... I've even had SEN asking for an interview this week. I've been sending them to the guys who actually found it - hopefully they get the recognition they deserve for this find

 

[*Paul*]

Yep, he has talked to SEN, so it seems to have worked out.

 

[Connor7395]

Discovered two errors found while doing a scoring progression for Richmond vs Fitzroy in Rd 6, 1986.

1. Jeff Hogg kicked one goal, but that goal is incorrectly attributed to Craig Smith. Hogg's goal occurs at 1:09:20 in the video.
2. Dean Notting didn't wear 58 in this match, he wore 51.

Notting may have worn 51 for the whole season. A number of other Richmond games from 1986 exist on Youtube.

 

[35Daicos]

rbartlett

See post above this one!

 

[rbartlett]

Discovered two errors found while doing a scoring progression for Richmond vs Fitzroy in Rd 6, 1986.

1. Jeff Hogg kicked one goal, but that goal is incorrectly attributed to Craig Smith. Hogg's goal occurs at 1:09:20 in the video.
2. Dean Notting didn't wear 58 in this match, he wore 51.

Notting may have worn 51 for the whole season. A number of other Richmond games from 1986 exist on Youtube.

So I've looked at my football record from that day, and the handwritten goalkickers filled out show Hogg with 1, and Craig Smith with 0.
The error must have come about from the R 7 Footy Record, page 38 which lists Smith as a goalkicker but doesn't list Hogg.

So yes I agree with Connor's post.

WhiteHartLane23 can place that on the spreadsheet for AFL

 

[rbartlett]

Folks came across this Richmond team photo in a 'Victorian Follower' that was posted on ebay. I had never seen it before.
I've dated it to Rd 9 1908, Richmond vs StKilda at Junction Oval.
But to double prove I'm right, I'm hoping someone could confirm the buildings in the background are consistent with that of the Junction Oval at that time


Would you say its the same building as seen here on the far left (with the 5 arch windows) from 1932 aerial photo

 

[35Daicos]

Folks came across this Richmond team photo in a 'Victorian Follower' that was posted on ebay. I had never seen it before.
I've dated it to Rd 9 1908, Richmond vs StKilda at Junction Oval.
But to double prove I'm right, I'm hoping someone could confirm the buildings in the background are consistent with that of the Junction Oval at that time
View attachment 642443

Would you say its the same building as seen here on the far left (with the 5 arch windows) from 1932 aerial photo
View attachment 642470

I was just about to post this!: http://www.aroundthegrounds.bellestorie.com/junction/images/junction-image1.html

Isn't it the same building that's still there today ^? Or does that appear to be too close to the ground? It is almost straight behind the goals in the 1932 and modern-day pics.

 

[rbartlett]

Judging by that photo now, I reckon you are correct 35Daics, its the same building. So that double confirm the photo was from Junction Oval, thanks

So, I've done some research and named them to the best of my ability

 

[35Daicos]

Judging by that photo now, I reckon you are correct 35Daics, its the same building. So that double confirm the photo was from Junction Oval, thanks

So, I've done some research and named them to the best of my ability

Good one!

While this has nothing to do with the football side of things, it would be nice to know what that old building was once used for, and even what it's doing now. It seems to be at 83 Queens Road (in front of a very large apartment building). It looks quite stunning on Google Street View and on any real estate pics I've checked out.