Opinion Howard and Frampton - discuss

[Janus]

In all seriousness, today we beat a team that have not made the trip to China before and probably made some rooky mistakes with their food choices and were not at their best, they had to make changes prior to the big game.
What we are talking about is more to do with selections in particular and the years that ken has had as coach with a potentially top 4 side and butchered it View attachment 685476Sorry couldn't help myself.

In all seriousness, we weren't out our best either, and we had to make changes which included dropping a key forward and replacing him with a key defender who actually bothered to push up the ground (which Frampton didn't bother with), and putting a half back into a mid position to replace a star midfielder.

But let's forget the game for a minute, because it's irrelevant. I want people to talk about Howard's performance.

People had a cry about Frampton being dropped, but he was poor against Hawthorn. If Howard had been played in that position, we probably would have won the game against the Hawks because he actually knows how to compete in marking contests and gets to where the ball is rather than where he wants it to be.

Dougs showed Billy what is required to be an AFL key forward. You're not going to get it lace out all the time. Some of the marks he took were under immense pressure, up the ground and would have been great marks against any opponent. Frampton should have been taking notes as to how he's supposed to play the role.

Did Howard need a second tall to help him play better? Nope. Most of the time he was the only tall in the contest for us, and he still managed to either mark it or bring it to ground for our smalls.

Did Howard give up on balls the way that Marshall and Frampton do? Nope. There was no 'this isn't a perfect kick so I'm going to give away a free kick or put in a half-arsed attempt at getting to the ball'. He was getting to the ball as if his life depended on it. Which is how an AFL key forward operates.

Was Howard mobile? Yep. He was moving up and down the ground all the time.

Was Howard always active? Yep. If he didn't mark it, he was halving the contest and taking players around him out of it.

That's what I want to see from Marshall and Frampton. They don't have to play the same way, because they aren't those kinds of players, but don't make excuses for them when they play poorly.

Now...let me imagine for a moment a Charlie Dixon and Todd Marshall forward line where Marshall is playing like Howard did and actually clunking marks and bringing others into the game, and Dougal Howard is doing what he did today, but in defence (which was worse off for not having him in it)...

 

[Us against the rest]

In all seriousness, we weren't out our best either, and we had to make changes which included dropping a key forward and replacing him with a key defender who actually bothered to push up the ground (which Frampton didn't bother with), and putting a half back into a mid position to replace a star midfielder.

But let's forget the game for a minute, because it's irrelevant. I want people to talk about Howard's performance.

People had a cry about Frampton being dropped, but he was poor against Hawthorn. If Howard had been played in that position, we probably would have won the game against the Hawks because he actually knows how to compete in marking contests and gets to where the ball is rather than where he wants it to be.

Dougs showed Billy what is required to be an AFL key forward. You're not going to get it lace out all the time. Some of the marks he took were under immense pressure, up the ground and would have been great marks against any opponent. Frampton should have been taking notes as to how he's supposed to play the role.

Did Howard need a second tall to help him play better? Nope. Most of the time he was the only tall in the contest for us, and he still managed to either mark it or bring it to ground for our smalls.

Did Howard give up on balls the way that Marshall and Frampton do? Nope. There was no 'this isn't a perfect kick so I'm going to give away a free kick or put in a half-arsed attempt at getting to the ball'. He was getting to the ball as if his life depended on it. Which is how an AFL key forward operates.

Was Howard mobile? Yep. He was moving up and down the ground all the time.

Was Howard always active? Yep. If he didn't mark it, he was halving the contest and taking players around him out of it.

That's what I want to see from Marshall and Frampton. They don't have to play the same way, because they aren't those kinds of players, but don't make excuses for them when they play poorly.

Now...let me imagine for a moment a Charlie Dixon and Todd Marshall forward line where Marshall is playing like Howard did and actually clunking marks and bringing others into the game, and Dougal Howard is doing what he did today, but in defence (which was worse off for not having him in it)...

I have always maintained my position on saying Howard is a forward but when I put my opinion forward a year ago, the responses were no no, he's a better defender.

As far as Frampton goes, I still think if he has the opportunity to play more AFL games he will develop and learn what is required of him.

 

[Janus]

I have always maintained my position on saying Howard is a forward but when I put my opinion forward a year ago, the responses were no no, he's a better defender.

As far as Frampton goes, I still think if he has the opportunity to play more AFL games he will develop and learn what is required of him.

I'm sure he will, but getting to contests and competing shouldn't be something you have to learn.

I think Howard is the heir apparent to the AA CHB - a guy who starts out in defence but who pushes high up the ground and plays like another forward when he's there. That would be the perfect spot for him.

****, imagine if Watts was playing instead of Lienert...

 

[RossFC]

In all seriousness, we weren't out our best either, and we had to make changes which included dropping a key forward and replacing him with a key defender who actually bothered to push up the ground (which Frampton didn't bother with), and putting a half back into a mid position to replace a star midfielder.

But let's forget the game for a minute, because it's irrelevant. I want people to talk about Howard's performance.

People had a cry about Frampton being dropped, but he was poor against Hawthorn. If Howard had been played in that position, we probably would have won the game against the Hawks because he actually knows how to compete in marking contests and gets to where the ball is rather than where he wants it to be.

Dougs showed Billy what is required to be an AFL key forward. You're not going to get it lace out all the time. Some of the marks he took were under immense pressure, up the ground and would have been great marks against any opponent. Frampton should have been taking notes as to how he's supposed to play the role.

Did Howard need a second tall to help him play better? Nope. Most of the time he was the only tall in the contest for us, and he still managed to either mark it or bring it to ground for our smalls.

Did Howard give up on balls the way that Marshall and Frampton do? Nope. There was no 'this isn't a perfect kick so I'm going to give away a free kick or put in a half-arsed attempt at getting to the ball'. He was getting to the ball as if his life depended on it. Which is how an AFL key forward operates.

Was Howard mobile? Yep. He was moving up and down the ground all the time.

Was Howard always active? Yep. If he didn't mark it, he was halving the contest and taking players around him out of it.

That's what I want to see from Marshall and Frampton. They don't have to play the same way, because they aren't those kinds of players, but don't make excuses for them when they play poorly.

Now...let me imagine for a moment a Charlie Dixon and Todd Marshall forward line where Marshall is playing like Howard did and actually clunking marks and bringing others into the game, and Dougal Howard is doing what he did today, but in defence (which was worse off for not having him in it)...

I am really interested in seeing the SANFL forward line with Dixon, Frampton and Marshall (with Ladhams/Hayes rucking) next week. Assuming everyone is fit.

 

[Us against the rest]

I'm sure he will, but getting to contests and competing shouldn't be something you have to learn.

I think Howard is the heir apparent to the AA CHB - a guy who starts out in defence but who pushes high up the ground and plays like another forward when he's there. That would be the perfect spot for him.

****, imagine if Watts was playing instead of Lienert...

Well yeah, I actually agree with you but why has it taken Ken so long to work this out.

 

[ozph1870]

I have always maintained my position on saying Howard is a forward but when I put my opinion forward a year ago, the responses were no no, he's a better defender.

As far as Frampton goes, I still think if he has the opportunity to play more AFL games he will develop and learn what is required of him.

I was pro Howard back as a defender, and he has still played some good footy there this year. He was really good with the old style of zoning off loose man in defense where he could zone off read the play etc. But now that 6-6-6 is in, his height skill and athleticism is quite a handful up forward. I think this year a being forward does suit him more.
It's still handy to know he plays good footy down back if needed too...

 

[Kiss from a Rozee]

I’m not sure we’ll see Howard stay forward for long, though maybe we will flip him around depending on whether we want 2 talls or 3 in defence.

Burton can definitely play tall in defence but I want to see him up forward or through the midfield.

Houston becoming an overnight sensation in the centre square complicates things even more!

I’d be happy to see Howard stay a forward since that’s where we *really* need more good footballers, I’m just not convinced we’ll want to move him around much.

When Watts is back I’d be more comfortable with the move. Lycett did a good job filling the hole though so who knows!

 

[Us against the rest]

I was pro Howard back as a defender, and he has still played some good footy there this year. He was really good with the old style of zoning off loose man in defense where he could zone off read the play etc. But now that 6-6-6 is in, his height skill and athleticism is quite a handful up forward. I think this year a being forward does suit him more.
It's still handy to know he plays good footy down back if needed too...

Agreed, he has shown he can play both ends, he is becoming a valuable player for us.

 

[JimmyBeerCans]

In all seriousness, we weren't out our best either, and we had to make changes which included dropping a key forward and replacing him with a key defender who actually bothered to push up the ground (which Frampton didn't bother with), and putting a half back into a mid position to replace a star midfielder.

But let's forget the game for a minute, because it's irrelevant. I want people to talk about Howard's performance.

People had a cry about Frampton being dropped, but he was poor against Hawthorn. If Howard had been played in that position, we probably would have won the game against the Hawks because he actually knows how to compete in marking contests and gets to where the ball is rather than where he wants it to be.

Dougs showed Billy what is required to be an AFL key forward. You're not going to get it lace out all the time. Some of the marks he took were under immense pressure, up the ground and would have been great marks against any opponent. Frampton should have been taking notes as to how he's supposed to play the role.

Did Howard need a second tall to help him play better? Nope. Most of the time he was the only tall in the contest for us, and he still managed to either mark it or bring it to ground for our smalls.

Did Howard give up on balls the way that Marshall and Frampton do? Nope. There was no 'this isn't a perfect kick so I'm going to give away a free kick or put in a half-arsed attempt at getting to the ball'. He was getting to the ball as if his life depended on it. Which is how an AFL key forward operates.

Was Howard mobile? Yep. He was moving up and down the ground all the time.

Was Howard always active? Yep. If he didn't mark it, he was halving the contest and taking players around him out of it.

That's what I want to see from Marshall and Frampton. They don't have to play the same way, because they aren't those kinds of players, but don't make excuses for them when they play poorly.

Now...let me imagine for a moment a Charlie Dixon and Todd Marshall forward line where Marshall is playing like Howard did and actually clunking marks and bringing others into the game, and Dougal Howard is doing what he did today, but in defence (which was worse off for not having him in it)...

Frampton doesn't have Dougal's mobility he is genuinely quick for his size which helps with getting front position and to more contests further up field.
Bill needs to work on his own abilities and be played deeper than Dougal IMO.

 

[DazalenkoUBewty]

Frampton doesn't have Dougal's mobility he is genuinely quick for his size which helps with getting front position and to more contests further up field.
Bill needs to work on his own abilities and be played deeper than Dougal IMO.

Mark = catch, Billy.

 

[Kiss from a Rozee]

Dougal has hustle

 

[Janus]

Frampton doesn't have Dougal's mobility he is genuinely quick for his size which helps with getting front position and to more contests further up field.
Bill needs to work on his own abilities and be played deeper than Dougal IMO.

Then he'll never make it as an AFL key forward. Dixon can get to the same contests that Howard did.

If he doesn't have the tank, build one.

 

[Chewy316]

Howard is a very, Very good defender. But he could be an even better forward.

I personally would keep him forward even when we bring Dixon back, because he is so quick, mobile and is always applying pressure. So the extra tall in the forward line doesn't mean any pressure in that respect is negated.

Whatever happens with Howard, I just don't want to see a situation where he gets the Ben Reid treatment. That is, to switch roles weekly for a number of years based on the oppo, resulting in never having a sustained period of excellence in either position.

 

[JimmyBeerCans]

Then he'll never make it as an AFL key forward. Dixon can get to the same contests that Howard did.

If he doesn't have the tank, build one.

It's nothing to do with tank some blokes are quicker than others it's also not unheard of to have talls that stay deep or players complementing each other with different styles.

I'm not saying Bill is not mobile btw

 

[Janus]

It's nothing to do with tank some blokes are quicker than others it's also not unheard of to have talls that stay deep or players complementing each other with different styles.

I'm not saying Bill is not mobile btw

Sure, but that doesn't mean you can't get to the fall of the ball when it's kicked your way. That's what I mean by having a tank - you've got to be able to get to contest after contest and just keep fighting for it. Stop expecting this lace out nirvana entry.

Funnily enough, when you start getting to the shit balls, the space opens up because the defenders aren't playing in front as much and the lace out nirvana entry starts to happen.

 

[Us against the rest]

Sure, but that doesn't mean you can't get to the fall of the ball when it's kicked your way. That's what I mean by having a tank - you've got to be able to get to contest after contest and just keep fighting for it. Stop expecting this lace out nirvana entry.

Funnily enough, when you start getting to the **** balls, the space opens up because the defenders aren't playing in front as much and the lace out nirvana entry starts to happen.

That is why imo we miss Dixon, he has the ability to follow up when the ball hits the deck.

 

[JimmyBeerCans]

Sure, but that doesn't mean you can't get to the fall of the ball when it's kicked your way. That's what I mean by having a tank - you've got to be able to get to contest after contest and just keep fighting for it. Stop expecting this lace out nirvana entry.

Funnily enough, when you start getting to the **** balls, the space opens up because the defenders aren't playing in front as much and the lace out nirvana entry starts to happen.

Look I agree but I'm failing to see where Bill was looking for lace out nirvana, his problem has been getting caught behind more a positioning issue I thought he looked better in the second half in crap conditions in Tassie trying to get on his bike a bit more.
He would've kicked goals against that insipid SANFL standard defence today, he and Dougal could both have played up there I don't see the issue Motlop was garbage as usual should've been dropped.

 

[Janus]

Look I agree but I'm failing to see where Bill was looking for lace out nirvana, his problem has been getting caught behind more a positioning issue I thought he looked better in the second half in crap conditions in Tassie trying to get on his bike a bit more.
He would've kicked goals against that insipid SANFL standard defence today, he and Dougal could both have played up there I don't see the issue Motlop was garbage as usual should've been dropped.

He would have kicked goals. But would he have learned anything if Howard was doing the bulk of the grunt work? Probably not. It would have reinforced that he needs other talls around him to be effective, and he's better than that.

For mine, Frampton has to learn to play like Howard did, because Marshall is going to be the one who plays deep in the team. He needs to start throwing his weight around a bit more and use his speed up the ground - more Jeremy Cameron than Jonathon Patton. We don't draft players who aren't mobile because it's not how we play our best football.

Against Gold Coast he was getting up the ground and competing, but then he fell into bad habits against Hawthorn and got stuck in wrestling matches because that's how he won the ball against the Suns in the second half. And it took him a half of football to fix it and get up the ground...which was a half too long.

He'll have another experience of the effort we are looking for when Dixon takes the field.

 

[JimmyBeerCans]

He would have kicked goals. But would he have learned anything if Howard was doing the bulk of the grunt work? Probably not. It would have reinforced that he needs other talls around him to be effective, and he's better than that.

For mine, Frampton has to learn to play like Howard did, because Marshall is going to be the one who plays deep in the team. He needs to start throwing his weight around a bit more and use his speed up the ground - more Jeremy Cameron than Jonathon Patton. We don't draft players who aren't mobile because it's not how we play our best football.

Against Gold Coast he was getting up the ground and competing, but then he fell into bad habits against Hawthorn and got stuck in wrestling matches because that's how he won the ball against the Suns in the second half. And it took him a half of football to fix it and get up the ground...which was a half too long.

He'll have another experience of the effort we are looking for when Dixon takes the field.

We are talking about a 3 gamer he has plenty to learn I wanted more games plugged into him for that very reason, Dixon coming back from a serious injury may not set the world on fire straight away understandably I think it's shortsighted dropping him.

 

[Kiss from a Rozee]

Howard has played on some amazing forwards in his time, would’ve learned a lot from them I reckon. He’s much more experienced than Frampton regardless, and has played more games up forward than Billy has even played.

I still like Billy, he showed enough his two games this year for mine. I can understand why he was dropped but I don’t really agree with it. Hopefully he is back before too long.

 

[Enviable Tradition]

I am really interested in seeing the SANFL forward line with Dixon, Frampton and Marshall (with Ladhams/Hayes rucking) next week. Assuming everyone is fit.

Jeepers. Who are we playing?

The no ALFers will have a fit.

On SM-G960F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[El_Scorcho]

Howard has played 39 career games to Frampton's 3.

Howard is developing into a terrific swingman footballer who has unique athletic ability with his speed for his size, and is learning to position himself really well. Experience is a big part of that.

He wasn't giving us the assured, 9 mark dominant forward performances in his first handful of games, which were also played as a forward.

I know Frampton is older than Howard was when he debuted but I've been banging on for a decade on this board about getting games into young talls, KPFs especially. It's vitally important and there are very few if any sub 20 game KPFs dominating out there like Howard did yesterday.

You can't avoid it. You can't circumvent it (except by trading already developed KPFs in). Talls need experience at AFL level to learn how to play at AFL level.

 

[JimmyBeerCans]

Howard has played 39 career games to Frampton's 3.

Howard is developing into a terrific swingman footballer who has unique athletic ability with his speed for his size, and is learning to position himself really well. Experience is a big part of that.

He wasn't giving us the assured, 9 mark dominant forward performances in his first handful of games, which were also played as a forward.

I know Frampton is older than Howard was when he debuted but I've been banging on for a decade on this board about getting games into young talls, KPFs especially. It's vitally important and there are very few if any sub 20 game KPFs dominating out there like Howard did yesterday.

You can't avoid it. You can't circumvent it (except by trading already developed KPFs in). Talls need experience at AFL level to learn how to play at AFL level.

Some take longer than others too but you know this board half have Marshall on the scrap heap as well & Lukosius over at GC is a dud etc. when they are absolute babies in KPF terms.

 

[Janus]

Howard has played 39 career games to Frampton's 3.

Howard is developing into a terrific swingman footballer who has unique athletic ability with his speed for his size, and is learning to position himself really well. Experience is a big part of that.

He wasn't giving us the assured, 9 mark dominant forward performances in his first handful of games, which were also played as a forward.

I know Frampton is older than Howard was when he debuted but I've been banging on for a decade on this board about getting games into young talls, KPFs especially. It's vitally important and there are very few if any sub 20 game KPFs dominating out there like Howard did yesterday.

You can't avoid it. You can't circumvent it (except by trading already developed KPFs in). Talls need experience at AFL level to learn how to play at AFL level.

How many of those 39 games involved him crashing packs and marking the ball like he did? How many of those marks were forward press busters where he broke us out of jail?

Experience doesn’t compensate for lack of effort to get to the contest, which is the primary attribute for a key forward. Actually scratch that, it’s the primary attribute for an AFL footballer. That ability to say “This ball is mine” and go get it regardless of how it was kicked to you.

You don’t need to learn that at AFL level. You either have it or you don’t, and you get dropped if you don’t, because it’s really not hard to develop a thirst for the contest.

Dixon has it. Howard has it. Schulz had it. Tredrea had it.

Westhoff has it sporadically, depending on whether he can be bothered.

If you want Frampton and Marshall to develop into Westhoff, by all means select them when it’s unwarranted and use a crap excuse like they need to be gifted games.

 

[JimmyBeerCans]

Yea if you haven't noticed Billy crash packs at both levels go to the optometrist.