Opinion Howard and Frampton - discuss

[edgie]

Howard played one of the worst games anyone has played recently vs Hipwood in Brisbane and was LUCKY not to be dropped.

This 'oh, but he gets to contests and always has' is nonsense.

Sam Gray would have made more effort on Hipwood that night.

 

[Janus]

Yea if haven't noticed Billy crash packs at both levels go to the optometrist.

Westhoff crashes packs too sometimes. That’s my point. A key forward crashes packs all the time. He’s the guy who brings others into the game. The top spot.

I don’t want Frampton to become another Westhoff. Get up and down the ground, because if we are playing two key forwards in future sometimes the other guy will have the mismatch in the forward line and Frampton will have to be the one to go up field.

 

[Janus]

Howard played one of the worse games anyone has played recently vs Hipwood in Brisbane and LUCKY not to be dropped.

This 'oh, but he gets to contests and always has' is nonsense.

Sam Gray would have made more effort on Hipwood that night.

This comes back to my two game rule. Give a player two games to get up to speed, as long as they are competing.

The difference in game speed between AFL and SANFL is high.

 

[JimmyBeerCans]

Westhoff crashes packs too sometimes. That’s my point. A key forward crashes packs all the time. He’s the guy who brings others into the game. The top spot.

I don’t want Frampton to become another Westhoff. Get up and down the ground, because if we are playing two key forwards in future sometimes the other guy will have the mismatch in the forward line and Frampton will have to be the one to go up field.

There are plenty that don't bust packs take Walker & Jenkins for example it's not in everyone's kit bag, It's not an ability to be underestimated.

 

[Janus]

There are plenty that don't bust packs take Walker & Jenkins for example it's not in everyone's kit bag, It's not an ability to be underestimated.

Walker and Jenkins have the ability to get up the ground (though I reckon Walker is finished). They bust packs through work rate and using their speed to take uncontested marks.

That’s how I see Marshall developing.

Frampton has the size to do both. He could be like Cameron if he wants it enough.

 

[JimmyBeerCans]

Walker and Jenkins have the ability to get up the ground (though I reckon Walker is finished). They bust packs through work rate and using their speed to take uncontested marks.

That’s how I see Marshall developing.

Frampton has the size to do both. He could be like Cameron if he wants it enough.

Walker and Jenkins play like smalls they have nfi how to negotiate pack situations, Walker losing more mobility makes him even less effective they are ya lace out nirvana types.

We have the ingredients of a very talented forward line with guys having complimenting styles it just has to be nurtured.

 

[El_Scorcho]

How many of those 39 games involved him crashing packs and marking the ball like he did? How many of those marks were forward press busters where he broke us out of jail?

Experience doesn’t compensate for lack of effort to get to the contest, which is the primary attribute for a key forward. Actually scratch that, it’s the primary attribute for an AFL footballer. That ability to say “This ball is mine” and go get it regardless of how it was kicked to you.

You don’t need to learn that at AFL level. You either have it or you don’t, and you get dropped if you don’t, because it’s really not hard to develop a thirst for the contest.

Dixon has it. Howard has it. Schulz had it. Tredrea had it.

Westhoff has it sporadically, depending on whether he can be bothered.

If you want Frampton and Marshall to develop into Westhoff, by all means select them when it’s unwarranted and use a crap excuse like they need to be gifted games.

Howard had 3 contested marks in the 6 games he played in 2016 from his debut. 4 of those games had zero contested marks.

Frampton has 7 contested marks in his 3 game career despite not taking a mark against Hawthorn last week.

It's laughable to say Howard was a dominant marking target in the first few games of his career. He developed that through being involved in 39 games worth of aerial contests at AFL level.

 

[PowerBaz]

Walker and Jenkins have the ability to get up the ground (though I reckon Walker is finished). They bust packs through work rate and using their speed to take uncontested marks.

That’s how I see Marshall developing.

Frampton has the size to do both. He could be like Cameron if he wants it enough.

Is Frampton a potential understudy for the Dixon role, with players like Howard/Marshall together in the forward line.

Frampton doesn't seem to have the engine but seems to be the Dixon like strength replacement closer to goal. Both him and Marshall I've notice think well and have quick hands to get a handball out under pressure.

Someone explain Houston in the middle for me, was it an experiment? seemed to play well there.

 

[AwwThatsApples]

I have my doubts that Dougal will reach his full potential this year, but if the club takes time with him in the offseason we can hopefully expand on his potential as a tall forward, but right now we're playing him in a position that he hasn't primarily played in at AFL level yet, he needs a proper redirection in his development.

 

[JimmyBeerCans]

I reckon we've cut Charlie's impact down from having him run from arseh*le to breakfast tbh When he comes back I'd like to see him stay deep forward more and let Doogs go more as a roaming CHF.

This notion that every tall needs to be Nick Riewoldt-esque athletically is flawed on many levels.

 

[Duck Farmer]

Frampton is a good contested mark and a fine shot on goal with a dose of mongrel. There's definitely something to work with there. He needs a coach who will back him in.

 

[Janus]

Howard had 3 contested marks in the 6 games he played in 2016 from his debut. 4 of those games had zero contested marks.

Frampton has 7 contested marks in his 3 game career despite not taking a mark against Hawthorn last week.

It's laughable to say Howard was a dominant marking target in the first few games of his career. He developed that through being involved in 39 games worth of aerial contests at AFL level.

I never said he was. How many pack marks have you seen him take in those aerial contests in defence? Zero, by my count. He was spoiling most of the entries.

So playing in defence did nothing to improve his ability to mark the ball. It may have improved his ability to position himself in the contest...but you have to get there first.

Frampton’s marks were generally one on one contests that were based around strength. That’s why people were saying he needs another tall to feed off of.

But that’s why he gave away free kicks against Hawthorn - he wasn’t up against a kid but an experienced defender who was hard to move and he was getting frustrated.

All I’m saying is Frampton needs to do something other than stand in the forward line and wrestle. Move around, present and make shit entries good ones by getting to the fall of the ball. If he’s locked in the forward line, move around the forward line. That goes for Marshall too.

Make it hard for the defenders to do their job rather than super easy.

 

[Magus]

But that’s why he gave away free kicks against Hawthorn - he wasn’t up against a kid but an experienced defender who was hard to move and he was getting frustrated.

All I’m saying is Frampton needs to do something other than stand in the forward line and wrestle. Move around, present and make **** entries good ones by getting to the fall of the ball. If he’s locked in the forward line, move around the forward line. That goes for Marshall too.

Make it hard for the defenders to do their job rather than super easy.

I'm starting to think you didn't watch last week's game where Frampton worked himself up the wing and was regularly double teamed.

He dropped some marks he should have taken but your criticisms around not working hard enough are bogus and reeks of an agenda to justify your mate's selection policy. Very predictable.

 

[AFC AFeederClub]

How many of those 39 games involved him crashing packs and marking the ball like he did? How many of those marks were forward press busters where he broke us out of jail?

Experience doesn’t compensate for lack of effort to get to the contest, which is the primary attribute for a key forward. Actually scratch that, it’s the primary attribute for an AFL footballer. That ability to say “This ball is mine” and go get it regardless of how it was kicked to you.

You don’t need to learn that at AFL level. You either have it or you don’t, and you get dropped if you don’t, because it’s really not hard to develop a thirst for the contest.

Dixon has it. Howard has it. Schulz had it. Tredrea had it.

Westhoff has it sporadically, depending on whether he can be bothered.

If you want Frampton and Marshall to develop into Westhoff, by all means select them when it’s unwarranted and use a crap excuse like they need to be gifted games.

Janus, your an idiot, Frampton is a pack crasher

 

[El_Scorcho]

I never said he was. How many pack marks have you seen him take in those aerial contests in defence? Zero, by my count. He was spoiling most of the entries.

So playing in defence did nothing to improve his ability to mark the ball. It may have improved his ability to position himself in the contest...but you have to get there first.

Frampton’s marks were generally one on one contests that were based around strength. That’s why people were saying he needs another tall to feed off of.

But that’s why he gave away free kicks against Hawthorn - he wasn’t up against a kid but an experienced defender who was hard to move and he was getting frustrated.

All I’m saying is Frampton needs to do something other than stand in the forward line and wrestle. Move around, present and make **** entries good ones by getting to the fall of the ball. If he’s locked in the forward line, move around the forward line. That goes for Marshall too.

Make it hard for the defenders to do their job rather than super easy.

This is fine, but Frampton has played 3 games. He won't face that quality of defender at SANFL level, ever. He can't learn how to overcome intelligent, AFL quality defenders as the primary target by playing at SANFL level.

Ideally he'd be developing alongside Dixon or another KPF as a 2nd tall, but our awful KPF development means we don't have someone to play that role.

Howard learned a heap about positioning and contested marking playing in defence. An enormous amount. He's gone from a spoiler to an intercept marker in 10 games this season. He's played some of the best KPFs in the league over the past couple of seasons, and he's already got a bit of the forward craft from before he was switched back.

You can bleat about what Frampton and Marshall need to do to be effective. Nobody disagrees. But the only way they'll do what you want them to on a consistent basis is to play games at AFL level.

 

[Janus]

I'm starting to think you didn't watch last week's game where Frampton worked himself up the wing and was regularly double teamed.

He dropped some marks he should have taken but your criticisms around not working hard enough are bogus and reeks of an agenda to justify your mate's selection policy. Very predictable.

I saw him work up the wing after half time against Hawthorn. I saw him work up to the wing before half time against Gold Coast.

I know he can do it, so why didn’t he do it the whole game? The only time he’s supposed to be anchored in the forward line is when we have the ball locked inside our forward 50. If it’s down the other end there’s no point in him being deep because we need to get it out of defensive 50 first and most teams use a forward press too.

 

[Forzaport]

This is where I get frustrated. No one is arguing that Frampton didn't play poorly, he played as expected for his level of AFL experience. He's not going to magically become a 50 game AFL player, he needs to be given AFL opportunity so he learns AFL positioning at AFL pace. This is why I was against him being dropped and really pissed off when he was dropped.

Playing Howard at 1st Key Forward for a full game was a great move. A better move would have been to have Frampton as 2nd Key Forward with a resting ruck as 3rd tall with Westhoff doing his thing around the ground. The conditions were absolutely perfect for it. Instead we got a flanker fest so while there was a lot of good from a coaching perspective yesterday, I don't know if it's enough to move the needle. Frampton's lack of AFL time is sour note imo.

 

[Magus]

I saw him work up the wing after half time against Hawthorn. I saw him work up to the wing before half time against Gold Coast.

I know he can do it, so why didn’t he do it the whole game? The only time he’s supposed to be anchored in the forward line is when we have the ball locked inside our forward 50. If it’s down the other end there’s no point in him being deep because we need to get it out of defensive 50 first and most teams use a forward press too.

Inexperience. Dropping him in a bye week isn't going to fix that.

 

[crafty_bernardo]

Frampton being double teamed by Frawley and Sicily ,even Dougal would have struggled.

Most of the day Dougals opponent was Nathan Brown lol

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[Magus]

Frampton being double teamed by Frawley and Sicily ,even Dougal would have struggled.

Most of the day Dougals opponent was Nathan Brown lol

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Exactly. Frampton would have had a great time in yesterday's conditions too.

 

[Janus]

Inexperience. Dropping him in a bye week isn't going to fix that.

Neither is playing him in an important game for the club to win.

I'm not saying Frampton is rubbish. I'm saying that he needs to learn what is required of an AFL forward.

Howard got dropped after 2 games in 2016 too, remember? Didn't seem to affect his development.

Frampton being double teamed by Frawley and Sicily ,even Dougal would have struggled.

Most of the day Dougals opponent was Nathan Brown lol

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Frawley isn't what I'd call the most aerobic runner in the league. Why play to the strengths of your defenders? Sometimes the role of a key forward is to be the decoy and pull the defenders up the field away from the ball so others can score - particularly the man who the double team should be looking after. Dixon does this all the time.

Let's say Sicily's opponent was Farrell. It would have been much better for Frampton to get up the field, draw Sicily away from Farrell, and let Farrell kick 3-4 goals unmarked. That forces Clarkson to say 'Shit, I can't leave that guy unchecked', dump the double team and pay more attention to Farrell, which allows Billy the chance for one on one contested marks.

 

[edgie]

**** me Janus are you now trying to say that using your speed to work high and take an uncontested mark counts as 'busting a pack'?

 

[Doctor Feel]

Disregard Howard and Frampton, acquire Nick Salter in defence.

 

[Zakk Wylde]

Dougs is clearly in front, and the superior player.

But gee whiz it was nice weather to play in compared to the rain in the last few games. Add to that the quality of ball coming in.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Neither is playing him in an important game for the club to win.

I'm not saying Frampton is rubbish. I'm saying that he needs to learn what is required of an AFL forward.

Howard got dropped after 2 games in 2016 too, remember? Didn't seem to affect his development.

Didn't affect his development? He was moved to an entirely different position. He then only got the consistent games at AFL level because he was moved to defence.

If we were stacked for tall defenders and he was left forward, he'd have come back post injury in 2018 into the Port Adelaide forwardline wasteland where every single forward not named Robert struggled to make an impact and spent large periods under selection pressure, including Charlie Dixon who you're now claiming will be the saviour of our 2019 season.

The coaches and list managers have developed an AFL quality key forward in spite of themselves, by moving one to defence because to fill a need, and playing him there with plenty of support long enough that he's up to AFL speed and positioning and can now translate that experience to the forward line.

This is as much of a fluke for our tall forward development as it was to have an already developed Charlie Dixon fall in our laps.