Are we cursed?

[jonbe54]

Lots of tanties still going on I think I will take a break for a few weeks and wait for the adults to gain the ascendency.

 

[domus]

Cursed?

Do some of you believe in imaginary sky wizards as well?

I have no doubt that many people are what we term "lucky" in life and others are "unlucky". Would you dispute this? Surely we all know that there is the kind of bloke who smokes like a chimney, drinks like a fish, bludges but wins tattslotto and lives to be a hundred. We also know the bloke who works his butt off, lives a healthy life but gets retrenched and then diagnosed with a terminal cancer at thirty

Surely, if we can call one lucky and the other unlucky, these same words can be applied to sportsmen or football clubs? What do we mean when we say unlucky? It means when there is a chance things could work out or go badly wrong, the latter always seems to happen even though there is nothing the person did to deserve it. Their longed for kid born with a severe disability, spouse dies, gets retrenched, house burns down while the neighbour's home survives the fire. Others always seem to land on their feet through no particular reason. The same can apply to individuals in sport and teams too.

 

[domus]

Umm yeh so we had quite a while to adjust to these missing players.... whilst they did not. Sounds like you are creating your own narrative to make yourself feel good. Reality is, another year, another f’ed up opportunity by the collingwood football club....

Crap. Some players cannot be replaced. If Dusty had been out all year do you think having all that time to replace him would have meant he wasn't missed? Langdon was close to the best player of the final series last year. His intercept marking was sensational-including the grand final. Beams is a top class mid when not carrying hip injuries and mental health problems. Cox is an X factor regardless of what others might say and Bucks stated emphatically-if he was fit he would be in our best 22. Greenwood had a hard edge and was playing his best footy for us when he was injured. DeGoey tore Richmond apart earlier in the year.We were the only team to crush Richmond when they had no injuries (Rance only) earlier this year. All of the players I have mentioned were playing that night and played well. Interesting.

 

[Roverjg]

Mate there are 17 other teams and 6 of them are HEAVILY subsidized by the AFL - for any core team to make the GF is like climbing a mountain.

Those are the FACTS.

And if you are happy with that then good... The fact is that multiple teams have won it multiple times in the past dozen years... we are making excuses for our failures. How does a heavily subsidized teams equate to less injuries?, better draft picks, and less dumb decisions when it comes to recruiting?

 

[Scritchyscroony]

Given I've opened this up for discussion, I'll try to answer this as honestly as I can.

Firstly, I admit that I've focused on Eddie before when going through yet another existential crisis over Collingwood. Richmond winning a flag by 89 points will do that to you, and I was there yesterday, experiencing the fans exultation right through to the final siren, after which I (literally) ran away. As I posted after the game, I've had more fun at the dentist. A filling without anaesthetic comes to mind.

But more relevantly, Eddie's gaffes over the years indicate someone who is out of touch with contemporary thinking and behaviours. While the gaffes can be laughed off, his media mates can scoff at the 'faux outrage', and Eddie (eventually) apologises, these things can and do reflect on our club, rightly or wrongly that is the perception. I'm not sure I want to be 'side by side' with someone who says those things. I appreciate that Eddie has come around on the Goodes issue, to his absolute credit.

And if there is an underlying issue with impetuous outbursts or some screwed up thinking - does this carry through to decisions made at the club? I concede this is a long bow to draw, but was Gubby Allen a rushed decision? Beams (not putting this all down to Ed)? Is there a tendency, even slighly, to favour old mates and favourite sons? This can work - e.g. Bucks and Maxy - but its not healthy.

I also concede that I now have some envy of the Tigers, and in looking at that club I want my club to be as good. To raise our standards. Ed was appointed in 1999 - is it wrong to think that some fresh and modern thinking wouldn't go astray in raising these standards?

This is not a personal agenda, as jonbe implies in the above post. I try to be balanced and objective when posting on issues such as this. But it is hard, and maybe my love for our club clouds my judgement on Eddie too.

Reading your post I just realised that Ed has had a gaffe free year so far. ( To my knowledge). First time this decade. Outstanding!
There is a need for clubs and organisations to renew their leadership and ours is probably past due in a text book view of the world. But you'd have to agree that things sre going pretty well on and off field for the club so there is no real impetus for a change from a performance perspective. What you are suggesting is really a change for changes sake. It's a hail Mary.

 

[Carringbush2010]

That is exactly what we do as a club.... we keep wasting opportunities.

We keep believing near enough is good enough. How often do we hear after a GF loss that we did better than 17 other teams. Unless you win it means nothing. My concern is the club will think we are good enough, and we will continue to top up with more UFA that we have paid a fortune for in $$$, and who have been injured or in the decline for years, and we suddenly think they will become a world beater. Lets put more effort into identifying young key position players via the Draft and work towards putting time, effort and money into them.

I'm more than certain the club would not be satisfied with 2nd, in saying that the reason we get there consistently is because the culture is good, the coaching is good and the whole club buys in. It's by design to attempt to win a flag, that is the reason we keep contending but for some unknown reason we regularly waste opportunities that we give ourselves. It's not a curse.

Sure some supporters are satisfied with runners up or not even that but I doubt that the club would be.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

Don’t bring religion into this.

I believe in God and I won’t force you to or mock your choices if you don’t.

Which God?

 

[Vicky Park]

Reading your post I just realised that Ed has had a gaffe free year so far. ( To my knowledge). First time this decade. Outstanding!

I think you might be right!

There is a need for clubs and organisations to renew their leadership and ours is probably past due in a text book view of the world. But you'd have to agree that things sre going pretty well on and off field for the club so there is no real impetus for a change from a performance perspective. What you are suggesting is really a change for changes sake. It's a hail Mary.

I partly agree. We are going well enough in 2018-2019, but not good enough if you take the long view. Of course I dont blame Eddie for all the mistakes of the last 60 years which have resulted in our horrendous premiership record. But he has been around for 20 of them, and that's a long time for an AFL footy club. He must be nearing a record.

Edit: I just googled 'longest serving AFL presidents' and this article, from 2017, indicates that he is up there.

Eddie has done tremendous things for us: helped modernise the club, dragged us kicking and screaming into our post-Victoria Park future, and set the club up financially. He will be revered for all these good works, despite achieving only one flag.

But on your point about change for changes sake, I dont have a problem with that. Ed was 34 when appointed to the role. Why not move on for the next best person, with different ideas and perspectives? I dont think we should be frightened of change, and I dont think our recent record is so good that Ed is untouchable.

 

[PieLebo87]

Which God?

I’m Druze.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

I’m Druze.

Does yours live in the sky and grant wishes, like some of them do? Man that would be so cool to be one of them

I'm thinking of converting to Spaghetti Monster, currently I'm Zeus

 

[PieLebo87]

Does yours live in the sky and grant wishes, like some of them do? Man that would be so cool to be one of them

I'm thinking of converting to Spaghetti Monster, currently I'm Zeus

No, it doesn’t, but it helps me deal with ignorance a whole lot better.

 

[AndrewShawble]

No we aren't cursed. They don't give the things away.

Honestly, we need a change in President. 20+ years is far too long for one person to oversee a club. It's time for some fresh ideas and mindset in the place, things can get stale.
Eddie has done an unreal job at the Pies, but he has now been president for 1/6th of our existence.

 

[jmac70]

No we aren't cursed. They don't give the things away.

Honestly, we need a change in President. 20+ years is far too long for one person to oversee a club. It's time for some fresh ideas and mindset in the place, things can get stale.
Eddie has done an unreal job at the Pies, but he has now been president for 1/6th of our existence.

Won’t happen any time soon.

 

[AndrewShawble]

Won’t happen any time soon.

I don't think it will either, not for a really long time. What do you think though, time for a change or happy?

 

[jmac70]

I don't think it will either, not for a really long time. What do you think though, time for a change or happy?

I have a feeling he could be up for re-election this year, that’s if someone else were to run (which is very unlikely). If there were an election I would be very likely to vote for Ed.

 

[AndrewShawble]

I have a feeling he could be up for re-election this year, that’s if someone else were to run (which is very unlikely). If there were an election I would be very likely to vote for Ed.

Yeah thats fair enough. I hope we have another brilliant candidate to go up against him, then its win - win. He just seems to have lost his edge in the last few years. No longer the media powerhouse he was, a number of well publicised blunders and poor decisions at the club.

 

[Chameleon75]

Cursed?

Do some of you believe in imaginary sky wizards as well?

 

[jmac70]

Yeah thats fair enough. I hope we have another brilliant candidate to go up against him, then its win - win. He just seems to have lost his edge in the last few years. No longer the media powerhouse he was, a number of well publicised blunders and poor decisions at the club.

The club is well run and in a strong position. Should we break through for that flag next year I reckon he will pass the baton.

There will be a statue of Ed some day. Collingwood legend.

 

[cliffdrabble]

I have no doubt that many people are what we term "lucky" in life and others are "unlucky". Would you dispute this? Surely we all know that there is the kind of bloke who smokes like a chimney, drinks like a fish, bludges but wins tattslotto and lives to be a hundred. We also know the bloke who works his butt off, lives a healthy life but gets retrenched and then diagnosed with a terminal cancer at thirty

Surely, if we can call one lucky and the other unlucky, these same words can be applied to sportsmen or football clubs? What do we mean when we say unlucky? It means when there is a chance things could work out or go badly wrong, the latter always seems to happen even though there is nothing the person did to deserve it. Their longed for kid born with a severe disability, spouse dies, gets retrenched, house burns down while the neighbour's home survives the fire. Others always seem to land on their feet through no particular reason. The same can apply to individuals in sport and teams too.

That is absolutely true. The greatest luck you have in life is good health. If you don't , no money can compensate.

Your argument falls down when you equate the luck part to Collingwood. We are a very healthy club with a hell of a lot going for us. Our failures are mostly self inflicted. Look at North in comparison, poor as a church mouse in comparison, yet they have built up great sides twice in the last 50 years, whilst we never had. 8 other sides have built great teams in that time, we have not done so once. That's not luck, that's incompetence.

There is no luck involved when you are 44 points up in a GF and lose, or when you kick the first 5 goals of a GF and lose not once but twice, or you are 27 points up in a GF and 3/4 time and lose. There is a trend there.

Blaming luck all the time is the mindset of a loser, and that is perhaps Collingwood's problem.

 

[jmac70]

That is absolutely true. The greatest luck you have in life is good health. If you don't , no money can compensate.

Your argument falls down when you equate the luck part to Collingwood. We are a very healthy club with a hell of a lot going for us. Our failures are mostly self inflicted. Look at North in comparison, poor as a church mouse in comparison, yet they have built up great sides twice in the last 50 years, whilst we never had. 8 other sides have built great teams in that time, we have not done so once. That's not luck, that's incompetence.

There is no luck involved when you are 44 points up in a GF and lose, or when you kick the first 5 goals of a GF and lose not once but twice, or you are 27 points up in a GF and 3/4 time and lose. There is a trend there.

Blaming luck all the time is the mindset of a loser, and that is perhaps Collingwood's problem.

You speak a lot of dribble Mr Cliff Drabble.

 

[Thatsmyname]

It's a math problem, we need to play 3 Grand Finals for a premiership, most other clubs take 2, thankfully we play a Grand Final every 2.9 years on average

It's the difference between a highly efficient forwardline with minimal supply and an inefficient forwardline with lots of supply

We do it a different way to the other clubs, we pepper that forwardline and hope a few go through

In the end the result is the same, the only 2 clubs with more flags than us are the two greatest (sanctioned) cheats

And you can't deny our ride is far more dramatic and entertaining than any other supporters

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

Cursed? No

We’re just run like a local suburban football club that happens to have access to the resources and supporter base of a professional AFL one.

 

[jmac70]

Cursed? No

We’re just run like a local suburban football club that happens to have access to the resources and supporter base of a professional AFL one.

Lol

 

[Help My Club]

Well that was a mighty long feed icw with a round of golf.

OK back to it JMac . Firstly let me be clear before we start. I am a long standing Pies supporter, probably longer than you as I suspect I’m a little older. It doesn’t make me any more or less a supporter of course but it has given me the luxury of time to both passionately and of more recent times dispassionately observe the mechinations of our club albeit from a distance. I remember how gutted you were after the recent 2108 GF loss and I totally got it. My primary emotion was also disappointment but I got over it quite quickly because frankly I had seen/witnessed this many times before. Previous GF losses sat with me for a lot longer but not anymore. So I suspect you, along with most other Pies supporters, will largely disagree with my comments below and that’s perfectly OK.

The two most significant happenings/events that underwrote Collingwood over the past 20 odd years are as follows:

• The appointment of President McGuire – I liken McGuire’s presidency at Collingwood to 2 halves of a game of footy. The first half under the Malthouse era culminating in the 2010 flag. At that point, you might argue that the club was 8 goals up at half time. I think we all agree that McGuire’s appointment back in 1999 was the clear catalyst that materially changed the club for the better across all spectrums of the club – on field success, financial stability, sponsorship, member base and also becoming relevant again. In view of this, we all owe McGuire our eternal thanks for his single minded commitment to the success of the club. The second half of his tenure has been underpinned by the coaching succession plan.

• The Coaching Succession Plan – at the time back in 2009, the announcement of the coaching succession plan was viewed by many as revolutionary and on the face of it, it was. I remember like it was yesterday that press conference with McGuire ushering his 2 men together. Buckley looked a little bit circumspect and Malthouse, being Malthouse, not clearly not happy. Now many will argue that in fact the succession plan fast tracked the 2010 flag as Malthouse knew his time was nigh. I’m happy with this argument.

So, in view of the above, the things that could have been done differently:

• The timing of the coaching succession plan handover. I have no problems with the concept but the timing of the handover was a disaster. Now let’s but the personalities aside for a moment and look at the process. The incumbent senior coach had just taken the team to a flag in 2010 and a GF in 2011. This playing group was fully aligned to their senior coach of the day and to end their relationship with a gut wrenching GF loss was ridiculous. Where was the chance for redemption? It was taken away from this playing group who had journeyed with their coach. Hence a lost opportunity for possibly another flag in that 1-2 year window.
• Not allowing/insisting that Buckley experience and diversify his skills at another club environment as has been the case with other greats – Hodge and Mitchell come to mind . For me, this was all on McGuire (and Kelly and Pert). Was McGuire that insecure and that infatuated with Buckley that he was not prepared to do what would have been the best thing for Buckley’s development as a potential future senior coach – experience away from the Collingwood fish bowl. Imagine what learnings Buckley could have bought back to the club down the track. Buckley was put in a no win position taking over from a premiership coach at the time.
• As an extension of point (ii), providing Buckley with the opportunity to come back to the club (which I have no doubt he would have) post the retirement of all/most of the players that he played with. There was no doubt that there was friction early days between Buckley and these players and McGuire should have been mindful that this was likely to occur.
• McGuire’s extended tenure as President – on any reasonably objective basis, the 2nd half of McGuire’s tenure has been far less successful and has been completely wed to the success or otherwise of the succession plan. 20 years is a long time in anyone’s language and a fresh sets of eyes/ideas is well overdue. But this won’t happen as McGuire is all powerful both at the club and media land and hence, except for the occasional gaffe, he is not sufficiently taken to task. No one is prepared to do it for fear of backlash to their careers. McGuire will leave on his terms, whenever that may be and I suggest he has no desire to go until his much heralded succession plan results in a flag. This is not how a professional sporting club should be managed in modern times. End of 2021 will be interesting if there is no flag in the next 2 years.
• Recruiting and Injury Management – this is not my area of speciality so I will leave it to others to judge. Suffice to say the soft tissue injury toll mounts up year after year so something is not right. As for recruiting, I think we could take a leaf out of Hawthorn’s play book and recruit players for specific roles ie Lake comes to mind. It’s not that we have recruited poorly but we seem to recruit names rather than those who can play a specific role/fill a hole when the premiership window is open.
• A Ruthless Professional Edge – consider this hypothetical. Imagine the hysteria if the Pies off loaded the likes of Pendlebury and/or Sidebottom at the back end of their careers for the purposes of rebuilding for the future and/or to give these players the opportunity to prep themselves for footy roles after their playing days. The club would blow up. And yet the most successful club of our generation allowed their out and out champions (Hodge and Mitchell) to do so. In fact Hawthorn encouraged these champions to move on for their own self betterment and knowing that the club will likely benefit in the long term should these players return in some capacity. This would never ever happen at Collingwood under the current regime. Ever. The Buckley appointment is confirmation of that.

 

[jmac70]

Well that was a mighty long feed icw with a round of golf.

OK back to it JMac . Firstly let me be clear before we start. I am a long standing Pies supporter, probably longer than you as I suspect I’m a little older. It doesn’t make me any more or less a supporter of course but it has given me the luxury of time to both passionately and of more recent times dispassionately observe the mechinations of our club albeit from a distance. I remember how gutted you were after the recent 2108 GF loss and I totally got it. My primary emotion was also disappointment but I got over it quite quickly because frankly I had seen/witnessed this many times before. Previous GF losses sat with me for a lot longer but not anymore. So I suspect you, along with most other Pies supporters, will largely disagree with my comments below and that’s perfectly OK.

The two most significant happenings/events that underwrote Collingwood over the past 20 odd years are as follows:

• The appointment of President McGuire – I liken McGuire’s presidency at Collingwood to 2 halves of a game of footy. The first half under the Malthouse era culminating in the 2010 flag. At that point, you might argue that the club was 8 goals up at half time. I think we all agree that McGuire’s appointment back in 1999 was the clear catalyst that materially changed the club for the better across all spectrums of the club – on field success, financial stability, sponsorship, member base and also becoming relevant again. In view of this, we all owe McGuire our eternal thanks for his single minded commitment to the success of the club. The second half of his tenure has been underpinned by the coaching succession plan.

• The Coaching Succession Plan – at the time back in 2009, the announcement of the coaching succession plan was viewed by many as revolutionary and on the face of it, it was. I remember like it was yesterday that press conference with McGuire ushering his 2 men together. Buckley looked a little bit circumspect and Malthouse, being Malthouse, not clearly not happy. Now many will argue that in fact the succession plan fast tracked the 2010 flag as Malthouse knew his time was nigh. I’m happy with this argument.

So, in view of the above, the things that could have been done differently:

• The timing of the coaching succession plan handover. I have no problems with the concept but the timing of the handover was a disaster. Now let’s but the personalities aside for a moment and look at the process. The incumbent senior coach had just taken the team to a flag in 2010 and a GF in 2011. This playing group was fully aligned to their senior coach of the day and to end their relationship with a gut wrenching GF loss was ridiculous. Where was the chance for redemption? It was taken away from this playing group who had journeyed with their coach. Hence a lost opportunity for possibly another flag in that 1-2 year window.
• Not allowing/insisting that Buckley experience and diversify his skills at another club environment as has been the case with other greats – Hodge and Mitchell come to mind . For me, this was all on McGuire (and Kelly and Pert). Was McGuire that insecure and that infatuated with Buckley that he was not prepared to do what would have been the best thing for Buckley’s development as a potential future senior coach – experience away from the Collingwood fish bowl. Imagine what learnings Buckley could have bought back to the club down the track. Buckley was put in a no win position taking over from a premiership coach at the time.
• As an extension of point (ii), providing Buckley with the opportunity to come back to the club (which I have no doubt he would have) post the retirement of all/most of the players that he played with. There was no doubt that there was friction early days between Buckley and these players and McGuire should have been mindful that this was likely to occur.
• McGuire’s extended tenure as President – on any reasonably objective basis, the 2nd half of McGuire’s tenure has been far less successful and has been completely wed to the success or otherwise of the succession plan. 20 years is a long time in anyone’s language and a fresh sets of eyes/ideas is well overdue. But this won’t happen as McGuire is all powerful both at the club and media land and hence, except for the occasional gaffe, he is not sufficiently taken to task. No one is prepared to do it for fear of backlash to their careers. McGuire will leave on his terms, whenever that may be and I suggest he has no desire to go until his much heralded succession plan results in a flag. This is not how a professional sporting club should be managed in modern times. End of 2021 will be interesting if there is no flag in the next 2 years.
• Recruiting and Injury Management – this is not my area of speciality so I will leave it to others to judge. Suffice to say the soft tissue injury toll mounts up year after year so something is not right. As for recruiting, I think we could take a leaf out of Hawthorn’s play book and recruit players for specific roles ie Lake comes to mind. It’s not that we have recruited poorly but we seem to recruit names rather than those who can play a specific role/fill a hole when the premiership window is open.
• A Ruthless Professional Edge – consider this hypothetical. Imagine the hysteria if the Pies off loaded the likes of Pendlebury and/or Sidebottom at the back end of their careers for the purposes of rebuilding for the future and/or to give these players the opportunity to prep themselves for footy roles after their playing days. The club would blow up. And yet the most successful club of our generation allowed their out and out champions (Hodge and Mitchell) to do so. In fact Hawthorn encouraged these champions to move on for their own self betterment and knowing that the club will likely benefit in the long term should these players return in some capacity. This would never ever happen at Collingwood under the current regime. Ever. The Buckley appointment is confirmation of that.

But for one kick that second half would also have been golden. The window is still open. We can win it next year.

Yes you are older than me, but I lived those darker years through my old man. This is not a time for us to turn on each other. The strength of Collingwood is its people, the barrackers.

I truly believe that this time next year we will be celebrating sweet 16 together.

Go you Mighty Pies.