Bluemour Melting Pot XXI - Like seriously, the polar ice caps have got nothing on us

[Pinnell]

If SOS wanted Dunkley and we got Deluca, I don’t see it as being overuled. We have a recruitment team, if they agreed on Deluca, why would the list manager have final say?

Why have a recruiting team and then overrule their decisions?

SOS's recruiting of Finbar should have been overruled. It was lazy recruiting at best, and sheds a bad light on the recruiting of Ben

 

[Opine]

It would be nice if people could be a little less disingenuous than this to make their point.

Palmer, Sumner and Lamb were all players that were taken to facilitate the trade of a player that we actually wanted (Palmer for Marchbank, Lamb/Sumner for Plowman). And everyone was happy with the level of skill displayed by Pickett and thought he showed promise, but injuries creuled him in the end.

Silvagni, Mullet, Shaw and O'shea were all taken purely as mature big-bodied senior players to help support a young list and were never expected to be long-term players or even AFL-level players. Hell, if Silvagni was still on the list, he'd be playing as a 33 year old next year!

Philips was a perfectly servicable back-up ruck and has just been taken by * after being offered a contract by Carlton, so they see something in him also. Lobbe was also a servicable back-up ruck and was also not expected to be at the club for the long term.

Smedts was part of a trade. He was not recruited to the club, the word on here was that SOS actually asked for Lang at the time.

That's almost half the players in your list that don't actually represent examples that support your point. They're just names that it's easy to throw in to make things seem worse than they in fact are.

This ^ ^

If there is someway of framing this post, as a backdrop to every other related point made in this discussion, it would be very useful.

 

[Faz 2000]

Funny story.. my mum used to go out with the dude inside Humphrey back in the late 70's.. lol

 

[Magruder]

I've heard guys say things like " I'm a dolphin trainer" to try to impress women... but "hey? Im the guy inside Humphrey" is next level

Dolphin trainer used to be quite effective back in the day...

 

[DangerousD]

SOS is the head of list management and strategy, he is the one responsible for delisting Deluca and inviting him to train next year in the hope of a rookie deal, just as SOS is responsible for offering Polson 2 years and Cuningham who averages 6 games a year, a 4 year contract.

I really hope there is nothing untoward going on there, SOS doesn’t want Deluca, the recruiters pick him anyway, SOS gets pissed off, delists him. I would hope that stuff doesn’t happen.

Unless SOS is the head of recruiting, I’m not sure why anyone is complaining that he didn’t get his choice of Dunkley, we have a recruiting team for a reason, I don’t see many complaining that SOSs plan of offering the pick we used on Charlie being used to get Tomlinson fell through.

SOS is not the King, he does not have free rein to do what he wants and nor should he or anyone for that matter.

 

[mochacinolatte]

Wow, a whole 6 games of development.
Better close the doors.

Never claim it was end of the world. Just see as it wasted resources and time to recruit and delist when games could of spent on a young player to further their development and footy nous.

Based on your logic lets take 6 senior games from each 2018 draftees, do you think they will be better or worse in the long run?

 

[DangerousD]

SOS's recruiting of Finbar should have been overruled. It was lazy recruiting at best, and sheds a bad light on the recruiting of Ben

I don’t buy this stuff. Where has it been stated SOS picked him? We have a draft board surely, where we rank the draftees and pick accordingly. Not a good look for the club if the list manager is coming in over the top to pick his kids mates. Makes no sense to me.

 

[DangerousD]

Silvagni, Mullet, Shaw and O'shea were all taken purely as mature big-bodied senior players to help support a young list and were never expected to be long-term players or even AFL-level players. Hell, if Silvagni was still on the list, he'd be playing as a 33 year old next year!

Smedts was part of a trade. He was not recruited to the club, the word on here was that SOS actually asked for Lang at the time

Other than the rest of your post, which I agree with, the above two quotes I can’t support and are a bad look for our club.

Smedts being included in the trade, doesn’t make it any better, why bring him in, in the first place, he was no good at Geelong and was used by them in a trade where we got rinsed, to get a better deal. SOS asking for Lang doesn’t make it any better, Lang is no good and will be lucky to play 5 games next year. SOS seems obsessed with players who were drafted in the 1st round.

I didn’t mind picking up Silvagni but the other 3, cmon, we totally ignored the possibility of picking up a future player by picking those guys. I’m aware of the concept of picking guys up short term, but to suggest AFL clubs pick up players to not play AFL is absurd, that’s why we have VFL listed players. How do these big bodies support the kids, if the kids are in the AFL and the big bodies are in the 2s?

I hate this idea that SOSs short comings can be glossed over and every excuse under the sun be given to explain poor decisions, he’s not perfect, nor is anyone, he and everyone makes mistakes, there isn’t anything wrong with that.

 

[myblueroan]

Did ya dack him ...??
Oh hang on...

no. that was KohPhi's mum.


apologies KohPhi!

 

[Michael Jezz]

By the sound of things he might be leaving on his terms..

I am sure that will be the spin

 

[BennyGFunk]

I don’t buy this stuff. Where has it been stated SOS picked him? We have a draft board surely, where we rank the draftees and pick accordingly. Not a good look for the club if the list manager is coming in over the top to pick his kids mates. Makes no sense to me.

Finbar has played one season as a raw teenager. At least allow the benefit of a full pre season and development before we judge him too quick. Some are slow burns, players develop at different rates.

 

[KohPhi]

View attachment 769212

Now I finally understand why my dad was barely around.

Yep, that's me done for the day. I'll make my way out.

 

[chelseacarlton]

Worked at an older Italian blokes house out in Lilydale yesterday, he had a blues cap on his head from the early 2000’s.
We chatted about the club and the team.
“Blooda Mouldhouse, he puta da club aback a blooda decada, blooda Mouldahouse” he said as he shook his head vigorously at me.
“Ahh, we will be a mucha better next year, marka my words” as he beamed and nodded at me.

My little miss is going to her Halloween dance party as Zombie Tayla Harris!

 

[Ockhams razor]

Bolts?

No.

 

[Ockhams razor]

Do you want him continuing?

In an ideal world, yes.

However, sustained club success & harmony must always come first, these two elements go hand in hand.

SOS is in an invidious position. If there is any change it will be his call.

 

[Dadda Dave]

I am sure that will be the spin

Read post 9313..

 

[Pinnell]

I don’t buy this stuff. Where has it been stated SOS picked him? We have a draft board surely, where we rank the draftees and pick accordingly. Not a good look for the club if the list manager is coming in over the top to pick his kids mates. Makes no sense to me.

Finbar was not on the radar of any AFL team. Not even at u18 NAB cup level. His recruitment can only be aligned to Xavier where he played with Ben Silvagni.

 

[OldBlueFan]

What's disingenuous about the players we've recruited /drafted which are now no longer there? These are facts. Yes maybe some selections have reasons however that's an awful lot of recycled players who haven't performed and as a list manager the questions need to and should be asked.

What is disingenuous is that you're using those players as examples of poor recruiting/drafting, suggesting that the list management team somehow expected more from these players than what they were capable of, and made a "mistake" in bringing them to the club. When in fact, they were most likely under no illusions as to their level of talent/value, but were brought in for other reasons.

Don't make the mistake of taking my post as an argument that the list team at Carlton have got everything right. But at the same time, don't use players who were brought in for very specific reasons, with full knowledge of role they could be expected to play, and on the understanding that they would be moved on, as examples of "poor list decisions".

As I said, I am referring to half of the players you listed, they are unnecessary and incorrect in the context of your point.

There is a very clear distinction between:

A) Gorringe, Lebois, Polsen, Schumacher, Kerr, Deluca, Fasolo, Garlett, Korcheck, Bugg and Gallucci.

versus

B) Palmer, Lobbe, Shaw, O'Shea, Silvagni(Freo), Sumner, Pickett, Lamb, Mullet, Smedts and Phillips

 

[Bearded Carpenter]

In an ideal world, yes.

However, sustained club success & harmony must always come first, these two elements go hand in hand.

SOS is in an invidious position. If there is any change it will be his call.

Can you share whom are the others that by him staying will cause him to be in such a position?

 

[4thchicken]

Smedts being included in the trade, doesn’t make it any better, why bring him in, in the first place, he was no good at Geelong and was used by them in a trade where we got rinsed, to get a better deal. SOS asking for Lang doesn’t make it any better, Lang is no good and will be lucky to play 5 games next year. SOS seems obsessed with players who were drafted in the 1st round.

I didn’t mind picking up Silvagni but the other 3, cmon, we totally ignored the possibility of picking up a future player by picking those guys. I’m aware of the concept of picking guys up short term, but to suggest AFL clubs pick up players to not play AFL is absurd, that’s why we have VFL listed players. How do these big bodies support the kids, if the kids are in the AFL and the big bodies are in the 2s?

1. Given AFL listed players would generally be expected to have better fitness/conditioning than VFL equivalents, I think it was reasonable to select smedts/lang/palmer etc over mature VFL players - you are otherwise going to need to invest a couple of preseasons in the hope of getting them conditioned to the level required to provide support. The mature players that SOS selected (ex-first round), whilst not established, showed enough talent as 18yos to get drafted in the first round - there was always a possibility that with additional development, something good might come out of it. Arguably more so than an overlooked VFL player in their early 20s...
2. You probably do need some mature bodies and experience to facilitate development of players in the seconds - it then comes down to the coaching structures as to how it is balanced i.e. all 18yos in the centre square, all 26+ yos in the centre square or a mix)
3. I don't think it is possible to discuss list management without player development being taken into consideration - great talent if not developed properly will never flourish. Considering that bolton 'failed' (sacked, suggestions of information overload impacting performance and potentially development, change in coach resulted in huge turnaround of onfield performances), one has to wonder whether one or two other players that were delisted along the way could have succeeded if they had been developed properly?

 

[Sin City]

I don’t buy this stuff. Where has it been stated SOS picked him? We have a draft board surely, where we rank the draftees and pick accordingly. Not a good look for the club if the list manager is coming in over the top to pick his kids mates. Makes no sense to me.

SOS has always been the one who picks the players in the draft dangerousdane, just to clear up any confusion.

 

[OldBlueFan]

Other than the rest of your post, which I agree with, the above two quotes I can’t support and are a bad look for our club.

Smedts being included in the trade, doesn’t make it any better, why bring him in, in the first place, he was no good at Geelong and was used by them in a trade where we got rinsed, to get a better deal. SOS asking for Lang doesn’t make it any better, Lang is no good and will be lucky to play 5 games next year. SOS seems obsessed with players who were drafted in the 1st round.

Ultimately the club wanted to make the trade as the first priority. They also wanted a player as part of that trade. They took the best that was on offer.

I didn’t mind picking up Silvagni but the other 3, cmon, we totally ignored the possibility of picking up a future player by picking those guys. I’m aware of the concept of picking guys up short term, but to suggest AFL clubs pick up players to not play AFL is absurd, that’s why we have VFL listed players. How do these big bodies support the kids, if the kids are in the AFL and the big bodies are in the 2s?

Picking up "future players" by definition means picking up young players, the club already had a plethora of those. Feel free to list the 3 players who could have been taken at the time of Mullet, Shaw and O'shea who were mature, big-bodied and AFL standard.

I hate this idea that SOSs short comings can be glossed over and every excuse under the sun be given to explain poor decisions, he’s not perfect, nor is anyone, he and everyone makes mistakes, there isn’t anything wrong with that.

Please don't use my post to suggest this, as I've never done it. My point was that over 20 players were being used as examples of list management "mistakes" when only half of them applied; the rest were conscious decisions made for very specific, and valid list management reasons.

 

[Accidental genius]

Sos has done a good job but I think it would be wise for him to step aside into a different role or even consider leaving all together. There are already rumblings by the sound of it and I think it will only get worse. He already has his 2 boys and potentially his third playing at the club. I think this will in itself prove to be an ongoing issue which I don’t think will go away.

 

[cookie monster]

SOS's recruiting of Finbar should have been overruled. It was lazy recruiting at best, and sheds a bad light on the recruiting of Ben

Diabolical selection. Some people need to take the rose coloured glasses off

 

[Jeremias]

Look at the history of GWS recruits SOS has bought in. Look at the draft selections outside of first round selections including rookie drafts. Look at the recycled players we've taken. The list is long and very ordinary. Decisions like recruiting Palmer, Lobbe, Shaw, O'Shea, Gorringe, Lebois, Polsen, Schumacher, Kerr, Silvagni(Freo), Deluca, Fasolo, Sumner, Pickett, Lamb, Mullet, Garlett, Phillips, Korcheck, Smedts, Bugg, Gallucci.
All really underwhelming recruits that are no longer at the club except Polsen.
Jury still out on Macreadie, Finbar, Owies, Cottrell.
Only good rookie we've recruited is Gibbons so far.

This is the sort of post I expect to read from an opposition poster, not a Carlton supporter.

SOS has missed on some selections, but the reality is you could put together a similar list for any recruiter/list manager in the competition.

It is also bizarre that you are simply willing to put forward a list of names, without any thought as to the reason why or context behind their recruitment.

Finbar was not on the radar of any AFL team. Not even at u18 NAB cup level. His recruitment can only be aligned to Xavier where he played with Ben Silvagni.

How do you know? Do you have access to the scouting notes of every recruiting department across the competition?

Diabolical selection. Some people need to take the rose coloured glasses off

Why was it a "diabolical selection"?

Was it because you'd never heard of him prior to draft day? Because no phantom draft on BigFooty mentioned his name?