Religion Ask a Christian - Continued in Part 2

[Chief]

Continued in Part Two:

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/ask-a-christian-part-2.1295001/unread

 

[Total Power]

So Christianity stands out from the crowd of other religions. Perhaps that's an argument of why it's on the right track. If it was just another religion I'd accept that there is nothing special about Christianity.

It came out of 'public demand' you can say. Buddhism was driven out of India cause of this reason, people were looking at a 'saviour' concept at that time. The Jesus myth and concept of a universal saviour is not exclusve to Christianity. Krishna became a saviour in India, born of a virgin mother. The Mithras myth for example, the Christ character was the amalgamation of quite a few myths.

 

[Vdubs]

I apologise if I inadvertently misrepresented your position. That wasn't my intention.

My understanding is that you don't accept the theory of evolution as valid, or differentiate it into macro and micro evolution which is a tactic used by creationists to hold onto a literal interpretation of genesis.

I accept that science graduates can have faith in the Christian god. No argument there. Having expertise in one field of science doesn't usually translate across to a different field, so a physicist probably doesn't have a strong understanding of the theory of evolution. For Christians who have knowledge about the theory of evolution, I would be surprised if many accept a literal interpretation of the book of genesis.

Where your faith and science clash, I'd assume the best response would be to delve deeper and make adjustments to your faith where necessary rather than dig your heels in on a losing position. JMO.

With all respect, as I mature into a seventh decade, my faith grows stronger each year.
Births, friendships, Life experiences, illnesses, deaths, disasters, calamities, pandemics... the whole gamut of life here...I grow increasingly reliant on God.

 

[Capital Magpie]

Question for a Christian!

How do you feel about humans mass genocide of entire species, how do you do your best to stop the destruction of Gods creations and what do you think will be our punishment for letting this happen?

I think it's terrible that humanity has presided over the extinction of species of animals. I do my best to stop destruction of God's creations by being informed of the issue and occasionally making donations to worthy causes such as the World Wildlife Federation. I don't think that I will be punished by God or anyone else for "letting this happen", for various reasons, but mostly because I am one person among billions and I haven't personally been involved in species extinction. At least, not to my knowledge.

You apparently feel strongly about these issues. How would you answer yourself?

 

[Roylion]

John Smith was a human who pretended to have supernatural powers and portrayed himself as God-like, in order to convince his gullible followers. His so-called miracles don't stand up to any sort of scrutiny

Don't they? They appear to be better documented that the 'miracles' of Jesus Christ. Why do the 'miracles of Jesus Christ stand up to scrutiny, but Joseph Smith's don't despite being better documented?

How does US author Ingersoll get to assert that "Not 20 people were convinced by the reported miracles of Christ...."? He obviously wasn't there, so is he relying on a scrutiny of the Biblical accounts?

Were there more than 20 contemporaries that were convinced?

Many may have claimed divinity or divine ancestry, but only Jesus was able to back up his claims by miraculous acts.

That's disputable that he actually performed any miraculous acts.

Lots of them. That's because He was and is the Son of God, so He was and is God by definition.

But God is unknowable. So how can you know this?

"For example the 'resurrection' of Lazarus could easily be physically explained". I'd like to hear your explanation about how this could be done so easily! It's reported that Lazarus had been in the tomb for 3 days, when they rolled the stone away from his tomb the stench was apparently tremendous.

Was it? We have one source for that event actually occuring and certainly not contemporary. John was written around AD 90–110, 50-70 years after the events it purports to describe. It's a highly symbolic account of the ministry of Jesus. The number 7 features prominently. Seven signs. Seven "I am" discourses. Jesus does not work "miracles", but "signs" which unveil his divine identity. John contains metaphorical stories or allegories rather than parables.

The 'resurrection' of Lazarus isn't mentioned in any of the earlier Gospels which you woud expect if such a 'miraculous' event actually took place.

Jesus deliberately delayed his departure to visit Lazarus on his death bed, because He wanted to demonstrate unequivocally the power of God. Raising someone from the dead is no mean feat, as opposed to say helping Lazarus to recover. from an illness

Or he recovered from a coma. A far more plausible and natural explanaton for this 'raising from the dead'.

'Dead' being someone who has obviously completed the process of 'death'.

'Death' being the state of the body after the heart has stopped beating for a period of time and the brain has starved from lack of oxygen. The whole network of neurons has largely disintegrated, dissolved from massive cell death and the pooling of blood acids. Gases and fluids have pooled in the extremities and body cavities. Rigor mortis has set in and the body has begun to decompose.

Lazarus wasnt raised from this state. No human in history has been resurrected from this state.

Raising Lazarus was such a powerful sign of Jesus' divinity that it prompted 1000s of Jews to want to proclaim Jesus the Messiah barely a week later (Pam Sunday). There were certainly more than 20 when Jesus rode through Bethlehem ti cheering crowds on Palm Sunday, Mr Ingersoll.

Quite apart from there is no verifiable contemporary account of this event ever actually occuring. John was written for theological purposes, not historical.

In fact the triumphal entry and the palm branches as described in John, resembles the celebration of Jewish liberation in 1 Maccabees (13:51) which states: "And entered into it ... with thanksgiving, and branches of palm trees, and with harps, and cymbals, and with viols, and hymns, and songs." Jesus was clearly regarded by many as a King - the long awaited messiah,....not the divine miracle-worker as John was keen to portray.

You cagtegorise Jesus' reported miracles as exorcism, cures and nature wonders, and I think seek to diminish them in that way. But you ignore the greatest wonder of God in that He raised His own son from the dead, after 3 days in the tomb.

That is an unsubstianted claim like many other stories of resurrection in the ancient world.

The Jewish leaders were so outraged when it happened that they concocted a story that Jesus' followers had taken His body away, despite it being under heavy guard 24/7 because that was just what they feared. How could that have happened?

The resurrection didn't happen. For the same reasons as that of Lazarus above.

 

[Roylion]

The thread is about Ask a Christian, not Ask a Mormon.

But aren't Mormons Christians, who acknowledge Jesus Christ? Why are their beliefs less valid than yours?

 

[Capital Magpie]

Don't they? They appear to be better documented that the 'miracles' of Jesus Christ. Why do the 'miracles of Jesus Christ stand up to scrutiny, but Joseph Smith's don't despite being better documented?



Were there more than 20 contemporaries that were convinced?



That's disputable that he actually performed any miraculous acts.



But God is unknowable. So how can you know this?



Was it? We have one source for that event actually occuring and certainly not contemporary. John was written around AD 90–110, 50-70 years after the events it purports to describe. It's a highly symbolic account of the ministry of Jesus. The number 7 features prominently. Seven signs. Seven "I am" discourses. Jesus does not work "miracles", but "signs" which unveil his divine identity. John contains metaphorical stories or allegories rather than parables.

The 'resurrection' of Lazarus isn't mentioned in any of the earlier Gospels which you woud expect if such a 'miraculous' event actually took place.



Or he recovered from a coma. A far more plausible and natural explanaton for this 'raising from the dead'.

'Dead' being someone who has obviously completed the process of 'death'.

'Death' being the state of the body after the heart has stopped beating for a period of time and the brain has starved from lack of oxygen. The whole network of neurons has largely disintegrated, dissolved from massive cell death and the pooling of blood acids. Gases and fluids have pooled in the extremities and body cavities. Rigor mortis has set in and the body has begun to decompose.

Lazarus wasnt raised from this state. No human in history has been resurrected from this state.



Quite apart from there is no verifiable contemporary account of this event ever actually occuring. John was written for theological purposes, not historical.



That is an unsubstianted claim like many other stories of resurrection in the ancient world.



The resurrection didn't happen. For the same reasons as that of Lazarus above. This appears to be you Roy:

 

[Roylion]

This appears to be you Roy:

Indeed. But your claims will continue to be critically examined.

 

[iBeng]

I think it's terrible that humanity has presided over the extinction of species of animals. I do my best to stop destruction of God's creations by being informed of the issue and occasionally making donations to worthy causes such as the World Wildlife Federation. I don't think that I will be punished by God or anyone else for "letting this happen", for various reasons, but mostly because I am one person among billions and I haven't personally been involved in species extinction. At least, not to my knowledge.

You apparently feel strongly about these issues. How would you answer yourself?

I honestly do my absolute best to avoid doing anything that would benefit to things that destroy habitats for endangered or any animal...but I also know its impossible for us to exist without some detrimental effect to other creatures. I also know there will ALWAYS be someone willing to exploit land/resources for financial security that will inevitably destroy a creatures way of life. Im curious how that position works for someone who believes they will be judged by a higher power at their death, would he consider our efforts not enough in defending his creations?

 

[Vdubs]

But aren't Mormons Christians, who acknowledge Jesus Christ? Why are their beliefs less valid than yours?

As is always your style, you are not asking to gain knowledge, but stating your opinion.'


My idea of Christianity is to be born again, to come to that realisation that Jesus Christ is the necessary way to make peace with God, and asking Jesus to come into your life for that purpose, and that the ongoing Christian life is kept alive by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
This life should be highlighted by significant change in attitude towards sin, and by emulating the morals and values that Jesus Christ had.
This includes fellowship with other believers, individual and perhaps corporate prayer, quiet time with God every day, and devouring the Bible
All that is necessary to live the Christian life is faith in the Trinity and knowledge of His Word.


Joseph Smith is irrelevant.

That is not to decry the Christianity of nominal Christians, but I believe Christians should believe that Jesus is God's son, and hence God, and that His Spirit assists us in daily life.
2 billion Christians worldwide encompasses many denominations and groups that may practice and live differently to what I am describing.

This title says it all.

 

[Capital Magpie]

I honestly do my absolute best to avoid doing anything that would benefit to things that destroy habitats for endangered or any animal...but I also know its impossible for us to exist without some detrimental effect to other creatures. I also know there will ALWAYS be someone willing to exploit land/resources for financial security that will inevitably destroy a creatures way of life. Im curious how that position works for someone who believes they will be judged by a higher power at their death, would he consider our efforts not enough in defending his creations?

Well clearly I don't know for a fact, but I believe that God will judge me at the end of my life. It may be simplistic, but I believe that He will look at everything I've done and thought and said, weigh it all up and decide whether I am worthy to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. I think He will judge me on the basis of whether I have lived by the teachings of His son, who said "love one another as I have loved you" and "love your neighbour as yourself" I would suppose that caring for God's creatures (over whom God gave Man doimion) would factor into that and form part of the overall assessment.

The bar I suppose will be higher for me, as I have been given a head-start by being raised in a Christian upbringing, so my conscience is well-developed.

I haven't expressed myself very well there, but hopefully you get the gist.

 

[iBeng]

Well clearly I don't know for a fact, but I believe that God will judge me at the end of my life. It may be simplistic, but I believe that He will look at everything I've done and thought and said, weigh it all up and decide whether I am worthy to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. I think He will judge me on the basis of whether I have lived by the teachings of His son, who said "love one another as I have loved you" and "love your neighbour as yourself" I would suppose that caring for God's creatures (over whom God gave Man doimion) would factor into that and form part of the overall assessment.

The bar I suppose will be higher for me, as I have been given a head-start by being raised in a Christian upbringing, so my conscience is well-developed.

I haven't expressed myself very well there, but hopefully you get the gist.

I sort of get what you're trying to say there, but it sort of reads as "Because I was born into the RIGHT Religion, I win."

 

[Capital Magpie]

I sort of get what you're trying to say there, but it sort of reads as "Because I was born into the RIGHT Religion, I win."

Didn't mean it to sound that way. Although I think I'm lucky to have been born into these circumstances, I realise that it gives me a head-start on others who don't have that advantage, but that means more is expected of me.

 

[Roylion]

As is always your style, you are not asking to gain knowledge, but stating your opinion.'

Mormons regards themselves as Christians. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Is this not right?

Joseph Smith said that God the Father and His son Jesus Christ appeared to him and instructed him to join none of the existing churches because they were all wrong.

My idea of Christianity is to be born again, to come to that realisation that Jesus Christ is the necessary way to make peace with God, and asking Jesus to come into your life for that purpose, and that the ongoing Christian life is kept alive by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Why is your version of Christianity any more valid than other versions of Christianity?

Joseph Smith is irrelevant.

His followers identify as Christian. Why are his beliefs and those of his followers any less valid than yours?

That is not to decry the Christianity of nominal Christians,

Nominal? Mormons regard themselves as true Christians.

but I believe Christians should believe that Jesus is God's son, and hence God, and that His Spirit assists us in daily life.

Mormonism teaches that there is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,

2 billion Christians worldwide encompasses many denominations and groups that may practice and live differently to what I am describing.

So who is right? As I said above, Joseph Smith said that God the Father and His son Jesus Christ appeared to him and instructed him to join none of the existing churches because they were all wrong. Since its beginnings, the faith has proclaimed itself to be Christ's Church restored with its original authority, structure and power; maintaining that existing denominations believed in incorrect doctrines and were not acknowledged by God as his church and kingdom

Is this much different to your own stance?

 

[Vdubs]

I sort of get what you're trying to say there, but it sort of reads as "Because I was born into the RIGHT Religion, I win."

Hence The Great Commission (GO AND MAKE DISCIPLES IN ALL NATIONS), and local and worldwide missionaries.'
There are billions of unreached peoples, and perhaps that's why human life on earth is still rolling on.

 

[iBeng]

Didn't mean it to sound that way. Although I think I'm lucky to have been born into these circumstances, I realise that it gives me a head-start on others who don't have that advantage, but that means more is expected of me.

That sounds...arrogant to me, Ill be honest.

 

[Cooldude]

that's your opinion. I don't agree. Someone once said "Faith can move mountains".

No it can't, what a silly throwaway line. Have you ever seen a mountain move because someone prayed?

Your "power of reason" should be able to tell you that it's just a cheesy quote meant to gee up the gullible

Just like the line "nothing is impossible for god", except growing limbs back on amputatees

Faith is the belief of something without evidence, delusion is also the belief of something without evidence, they literally have the same meaning. It's the same thing

 

[Capital Magpie]

No it can't, what a silly throwaway line. Have you ever seen a mountain move because someone prayed?

Your "power of reason" should be able to tell you that it's just a cheesy quote meant to gee up the gullible

Just like the line "nothing is impossible for god", except growing limbs back on amputatees

Faith is the belief of something without evidence, delusion is also the belief of something without evidence, they literally have the same meaning. It's the same thing

Fair cop. I will admit that quote has never really resonated with me eithet. In truth I was getting tired from defending my faith and belief system most of the evening, and I wanted to end my post with something punchy and profound.

But now its time for me to focus on an important game of footy tomorrow.

 

[Vdubs]

Mormons regards themselves as Christians. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Is this not right?

Joseph Smith said that God the Father and His son Jesus Christ appeared to him and instructed him to join none of the existing churches because they were all wrong.

So what?

Why is your version of Christianity any more valid than other versions of Christianity?

It isn't.


His followers identify as Christian. Why are his beliefs and those of his followers any less valid than yours?

That's not for me to decide.

Nominal? Mormons regard themselves as true Christians.

I wasn't even referring to Mormons with the "nominal " comment

Mormonism teaches that there is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,

They got that part right.

So who is right? As I said above, Joseph Smith said that God the Father and His son Jesus Christ appeared to him and instructed him to join none of the existing churches because they were all wrong. Is this much different to your own stance?

You decide. You have my stance. I have no allegiance to any of Smith's teachings, and from what I've read, absolutely no need to. You seem to know more about Christianity and Mormonism than anyone on this thread.

 

[Evolved1]

We're all born as atheists, so atheism is the natural state of mankind.

Given that Christianity is an artificial additive, and the full effects of a high intake of Christianity aren't well documented, wouldn't the wise choice be to remove all artificial religious positions from our life?

 

[Cooldude]

That sounds...arrogant to me, Ill be honest.

That's the point of religion though, believers think the mere membership of their faith elevates their status above others. They often condescend you with how much more they know that you don't

That's the whole point about the game of religion in the end: it's about clout. Make up an imaginary god, pretend you know him better than anyone or speak for him, and use it to elevate your social status. It's literal imaginary clout

It's about clout when they think the membership gives them a ticket to the afterlife: oh look I am now special enough to go in the VIP room!

It's about clout when they think the mere presence of the faith means they know more than you, morally or intellectually: god says people cannot be gay, so gay people are evil and they will go to hell.

It's about clout when religious leaders use it to abuse children: using your religious status to coerce unsuspecting young kids, molest them, then cover it up using said clout to manipulate and silence people

It is literally a scam for power, influence and money, whether in smaller or larger forms.

 

[iBeng]

Hence The Great Commission (GO AND MAKE DISCIPLES IN ALL NATIONS), and local and worldwide missionaries.'
There are billions of unreached peoples, and perhaps that's why human life on earth is still rolling on.

It doesnt tend to go well though, when missionaries attempt to convert humans that are free from modern society...

 

[Capital Magpie]

That sounds...arrogant to me, Ill be honest.

Arrogant? Really? I don't see how.
Equate it to the parable of the rich man giving 3 of his servants 5 Talents to invest for a year. The servant who buried his Talents in the ground and dug them up after a year wasn't looked on favourably by his master at the accounting.

 

[iBeng]

Arrogant? Really? I don't see how.
Equate it to the parable of the rich man giving 3 of his servants 5 Talents to invest for a year. The servant who buried his Talents in the ground and dug them up after a year wasn't looked on favourably by his master at the accounting.

Saying you have a head start because you were born into the right religious circumstances is like saying you have an advantage because you were born white and everyone not white is going to have a harder time of it. Ironically, its true, and its a big reason why protests are happening right now.

 

[Capital Magpie]

Saying you have a head start because you were born into the right religious circumstances is like saying you have an advantage because you were born white and everyone not white is going to have a harder time of it. Ironically, its true, and its a big reason why protests are happening right now.

You're attempting to conflate my religious upbringing with racial disrimination. Its a twisted interpretation of what I said and a real stretch in fact. You should know I meant nothing of the sort.

 

[iBeng]

You're attempting to conflate my religious upbringing with racial disrimination. Its a twisted interpretation of what I said and a real stretch in fact. You should know I meant nothing of the sort.

You said because you were born into and raised into a christian upbringing you will have an advantage over someone who has not, such as myself. How is that, in the eyes of our creators, fair at all?

Its like saying children in Ethiopia just should have been born somewhere better.