NO TROLLS Transgender Discrimination AFL Lawsuit

[owen87]

I was never talking about their name.

I was talking about looking at someone who is obviously a male and having to suspend disbelief that they are a woman.

So again, you're being asked to recognise the difference between Gender and Sex.

Sex is biological. No one is asking that you believe Mouncey is a biological woman. I'm not sure even Mouncey is asking for that.

Gender is subjective, it's about how that person views themselves and wants to express themselves and live their life. If Mouncey (or anyone else, there's a poster in this very thread who's in this exact situation) believes that their biological sex doesn't match, and they want to be called Hannah, then it's really no inconvenience to me to do so.

The argument is whether sports should be segregated by Gender or Sex. What most people here seem to agree on, however awkwardly expressed, is that it's Sex that should determine it, not Gender. What Mouncey's argument is in it's most simple form, is that it should be based on Gender, not Sex.

Anyone organisation who lets biological men play against women. Anyone supporting that idea.

I don't see too many organisations supporting it, most of them are trying to simply stage manage it away, whilst very small segments of the population are trying to force them to allow it. We're in a weird place where actively coming out and saying "we believe the competitions should be separated by biological gender at birth, and we apologise for those individuals who are excluded from this competition because of this" is suicide because of the disproportionate backlash these leagues would suffer, but ultimately that's exactly what they seem to want to do with AFLW, whilst avoided a discrimination lawsuit.

Athletes like Caster Semenya are the ones that are much more hard done by imo.

 

[Roby]

You're using my post to rant on your own agenda. You didn't actually even pursue what I was talking about. I don't care about you or your agenda. Sorry pal. Go read things into somebody else's posts.

"I don't care about your agenda" but you keep replying.

This is the second time you've done what you just accused me of... making implications on my behalf.

 

[Bostonian]

Are you parent? I'm a parent.

At that age I would expect I've raised a fully functioning adult who can speak for themselves on what they feel comfortable and not comfortable with. Either way I would be supportive of my child.

I am.

You're delusional if you think and 18 year old woman is going to come out in public and say she feels uncomfortable with a trans person in their change room.

They would get absolutely character assassinated in public if they did.

 

[RichLeMonde]

Yes they are.

Just because you believe they are doesn't mean everyone holds that position.

Male and Female, Man and Woman, both were created as words to describe the two different sexes.

There's only two genders.




That has literally nothing to do with gender.

Absolutely stupid argument.

Both are men with different interests and hobbies is how regular people would phrase it.

Who you vote for is not part of gender identity.

It’s not quite right to say gender and sex are the same thing. Wearing a skirt is not a function of biology. In some cultures it is a clear signifier i female identity, but not in others.

Something that is being missed about the idea of the social construction of gender is that it has always been understood as a process that the individual doesn’t have power over. The culture of which I am a part - which requires some level of consensus to be a culture at all - decides whether wearing a skirt is a feminine act, not me.

Gender can be socially constructed, but still decided by relative consensus, rather than individual preference. We are at a point now, though, where a significant percentage of the population has decided that gender is what the individual wants it to be.

 

[Roby]

I am.

You're delusional if you think and 18 year old woman is going to come out in public and say she feels uncomfortable with a trans person in their change room.

They would get absolutely character assassinated in public if they did.

It doesn't look like that is the case in thread. It appears that nearly everyone is wanting the opposite of you say would happen.

 

[Ando727]

"I don't care about your agenda" but you keep replying.

This is the second time you've done what you just accused me of... making implications on my behalf.

Enjoy your day pal.

 

[Bombermania]

Yes they are.

Just because you believe they are doesn't mean everyone holds that position.

Male and Female, Man and Woman, both were created as words to describe the two different sexes.

There's only two genders.




That has literally nothing to do with gender.

Absolutely stupid argument.

Both are men with different interests and hobbies is how regular people would phrase it.

Who you vote for is not part of gender identity.

Have you ever heard or used the word "tom boy" to describe a girl that likes to do boy things instead of girl things.

That nickname happens because society has a perception of how girls will act and behave so if a girl hates dolly then she could be called a tom boy.

The words sex and gender are often used together but they are two different things.

We see gender identity at the heart of political messaging with both Morrison and Trump playing to a certain identity. Another way this plays out is when we compare Morrison and Turnbull both wealthy Eastern Sydney raised men but one is seen as an elite toff the other one is seen as a daggy dad who hangs around with tradies.

 

[Roby]

It’s not quite right to say gender and sex are the same thing. Wearing a skirt is not a function of biology. In some cultures it is a clear signifier i female identity, but not in others.

Something that is being missed about the idea of the social construction of gender is that it has always been understood as a process that the individual doesn’t have power over. The culture of which I am a part - which requires some level of consensus to be a culture at all - decides whether wearing a skirt is a feminine act, not me.

Gender can be socially constructed, but still decided by relative consensus, rather than individual preference. We are at a point now, though, where a significant percentage of the population has decided that gender is what the individual wants it to be.

I wonder posters like Bostonian understand which gender should be wearing pink predominantly.

 

[Suspense]

I'll give you a clue, because you are young and lacking in acquired perspective. Inextricably intertwined and invariably uniform are very different things. Although it is a neat argumentative trick to take a difficult statement, then assign it a different meaning which you perceive to be easier to contest. Rightly or wrongly, deliberately or unconsciously.

Suppose I conveniently ignore your disingenuous references to "millennial conceptions of gender" and take your comments at face value, I still don't understand what the crux of your reply to my post was - besides some unfulfilled need to express a series of nothing statements and strawman arguments.

1."the millennial fantasy that if you want something, then the world has to give it to you, unconditionally"

What does this have to do with my original post? I argued that respect and inclusion should be the baseline for how sports culture should treat the ~1% - whilst also protecting the integrity and fairness of sport at a junior and elite level, and safety at all levels, for biological females. This is an uncontroversial statement - even within the trans-community - the differences largely stem from disagreements as to where the line is to be drawn wrt testosterone levels and the nature of the biological advantage an individual may have with regard to a specific sport on a case by case basis.

Your comment is nothing more than an irrelevant whine about millennials. Not particularly enlightening as it is a common refrain from those who are not long for this world.

2. "We muddled along for millennia without the exceedingly odd concept that identifying = absolute reality."

Yet another bizarre strawman straight out of the Life of Brian. Trans-advocates do not suggest that biological sex does not exist or that identifying as a particular gender somehow supersedes the realities of one's biological sex. In fact, ask almost any transperson and they are likely to be more aware of their biological sex than you or I. Trans-advocates argue that one's preferred gender identity should be respected within social spheres - of which sport one such sphere. As sports are traditionally separated along gender lines due to the inherent advantages that biological males have over biological females, this requires a reconfiguring as nature by which we delineate between the two competitions - one focused on biological advantage rather than gender itself.

 

[boncer34]

That's ( Rachel Dolezal ) cultural appropriation taken to sad and sick and self-defeating levels.

Folks who identify as a different gender is a different kettle of fish.

Why?

Both feel they are different to the bodies they are born in?

 

[radiojake]

not gonna read through 20 odd pages of what I assume to be a bit of a shitfight over the same things I've read whenever transgender sport comes up


reckon the easy way out for the AFL is just to go XX XY chromosones - No Y chromosones in the women's league

sucks for Hannah, but she could also have done a knee once or twice and be unable to play as well - sometimes the cards we are dealt suck

 

[Laphroaig]

Suppose I conveniently ignore your disingenuous references to "millennial conceptions of gender" and take your comments at face value, I still don't understand what the crux of your reply to my post was

Perhaps when you grow up, you might understand. No guarantees, but there's always hope.

1."the millennial fantasy that if you want something, then the world has to give it to you, unconditionally"

What does this have to do with my original post? I argued that respect and inclusion should be the baseline for how sports culture should treat the ~1% - whilst also protecting the integrity and fairness of sport at a junior and elite level and safety at all levels for biological females. This is an uncontroversial statement -

It's an uncontroversial statement only if everybody accepts the highly selective definition of respect and inclusion you try to bully them into, and accept that it outweighs any other meaning.

Trans-advocates do not suggest that biological sex does not exist and that identifying as a particular gender somehow supersedes the realities of one's biological sex. In fact, ask almost any transperson and they are likely to be more aware of their biological sex than you or I. Trans-advocates argue that one's preferred gender identity should be respected within social spheres - of which sport one such sphere. As sports are traditionally separated along gender lines due to the inherent advantages that biological males have over biological females, this requires a reconfiguring as nature by which we delineate between the two competitions - one focused on biological advantage rather than gender itself.

What a mess of self contradictory claptrap.

Your comment is nothing more than an irrelevant whine about millennials. Not particularly enlightening or uncommon for those not long for this world.

In OUR youth, those of us not long for this world ploughed through an extraordinary body and breadth of permanently world changing social reform that the permanently outraged self indulgent fiddlers of Generation Me will never come near matching.

Even so, there is still genuinely important work to be done. But unfortunately it seems that it is more important to champion the inalienable right of males to compete in sport against females, so we might have to wait a generation or two longer to see something useful done.

 

[Bostonian]

So again, you're being asked to recognise the difference between Gender and Sex.

Sex is biological. No one is asking that you believe Mouncey is a biological woman. I'm not sure even Mouncey is asking for that.

Gender is subjective, it's about how that person views themselves and wants to express themselves and live their life. If Mouncey (or anyone else, there's a poster in this very thread who's in this exact situation) believes that their biological sex doesn't match, and they want to be called Hannah, then it's really no inconvenience to me to do so.

The argument is whether sports should be segregated by Gender or Sex. What most people here seem to agree on, however awkwardly expressed, is that it's Sex that should determine it, not Gender. What Mouncey's argument is in it's most simple form, is that it should be based on Gender, not Sex.

The bolded part is false.

You can view yourself as a 7ft black man but if you're a 5ft pale red head nobody cares how you view yourself because they can physically see you're not what you claim to be.

Yes people can have their view of how they wish to express themselves. That doesn't mean however the rest of society views someone that way.

So people will view through the prism of biology before they view it through anything else.

I don't see too many organisations supporting it, most of them are trying to simply stage manage it away, whilst very small segments of the population are trying to force them to allow it. We're in a weird place where actively coming out and saying "we believe the competitions should be separated by biological gender at birth, and we apologise for those individuals who are excluded from this competition because of this" is suicide because of the disproportionate backlash these leagues would suffer, but ultimately that's exactly what they seem to want to do with AFLW, whilst avoided a discrimination lawsuit.

Athletes like Caster Semenya are the ones that are much more hard done by imo.

I actually agree on Semenya.

Because Semenya actually does fall in that very very tiny % of people born with both sexual organs.

 

[owen87]

The bolded part is false.

Only because you're still using Gender interchangeably with Sex, instead of being distinct things, which they are.

You can view yourself as a 7ft black man but if you're a 5ft pale red head nobody cares how you view yourself because they can physically see you're not what you claim to be.

Height and Sex are biological, Gender isn't.

So people will view through the prism of biology before they view it through anything else.

They will, but they shouldn't be so concrete given Gender & Sex are different things.

You can be born in Brunswick, but not be a Hipster.

 

[Suspense]

It's an uncontroversial statement only if everybody accepts the highly selective definition of respect and inclusion you try to bully them into, and accept that it outweighs any other meaning.

Nope - just the bog-standard Oxford dictionary definition will do.

noun: inclusion
- the practice or policy of providing equal access to opportunities and resources for people who might otherwise be excluded or marginalized, such as those who have physical or mental disabilities and members of other minority groups.

What a mess of self contradictory claptrap.

Which propositions are logically incongruous? Your (perhaps wilful) inability to understand the argument does not make it 'self-contradictory'.

 

[burge13]

Owen, you're really twisting reality here.

I might think I'm a transformer but reality says otherwise

This gender/sex stuff is ludicrous and people going a lot with it are not helping. It shouldn't be praised, it's a mental health issue when a 6 foot 5, 100kg bloke wants to play womens sport. Come on, some common sense please

How you're equating tradies, Scomo, Trump to 'gender politics' I'll never know. You're off the deep end on this one

 

[Bostonian]

Only because you're still using Gender interchangeably with Sex, instead of being distinct things, which they are.

No I know what a male and female look like visually.

So like most people I can make my own mind up what I'm seeing.

I don't see a woman when I look at Mouncey as an example.

Height and Sex are biological, Gender isn't.

Penises are biological too but apparently women can now have a penis and men can get pregnant.

That's the utter stupidity people are railing against.

They will, but they shouldn't be so concrete given Gender & Sex are different things.

You can be born in Brunswick, but not be a Hipster.

You can say gender and sex are different til you're blue in the face but it won't stop Mouncey being and looking like a male in many people's eyes.

 

[owen87]

How you're equating tradies, Scomo, Trump to 'gender politics' I'll never know. You're off the deep end on this one

I never said any of this.

This gender/sex stuff is ludicrous and people going a lot with it are not helping

Going with what? One is a biological term, the other is not. It's not difficult.

It shouldn't be praised

Where have I praised it?

it's a mental health issue when a 6 foot 5, 100kg bloke wants to play womens sport

Where have I ever said Mouncey should be playing in the women's league?

I don't see a woman when I look at Mouncey as an example.

Ok.

That doesn't change that Sex & Gender are two different words, meaning two different things.

You can say gender and sex are different til you're blue in the face it won't stop Mouncey being and looking like a male in many people's eyes.

It's not on me if you fundamentally misunderstand what the two different words mean. But it does make it pretty damn hard to discuss anything when you can't differentiate between the two.

 

[lusheslewis]

Only because you're still using Gender interchangeably with Sex, instead of being distinct things, which they are.



Height and Sex are biological, Gender isn't.

Is this view widely accepted amongst trans people/supporters?

For example, would they accept that both of the following statements are true?

1. "Trans-women are women".
2. "Trans-women are men".

 

[Bombermania]

Owen, you're really twisting reality here.

I might think I'm a transformer but reality says otherwise

This gender/sex stuff is ludicrous and people going a lot with it are not helping. It shouldn't be praised, it's a mental health issue when a 6 foot 5, 100kg bloke wants to play womens sport. Come on, some common sense please

How you're equating tradies, Scomo, Trump to 'gender politics' I'll never know. You're off the deep end on this one

By equating tradies, Scomo and Trump to gender politics is to show how gender identity plays into how society sees sexual roles and in turn sees politics.

Gender is more to do with people sees themselves or how they think each sex should act and behave.

 

[burge13]

You people are just needlessly complicating things. For what gain, I'll never know
I guess I'm not woke enough. Thankfully I live in the real world

 

[owen87]

Is this view widely accepted amongst trans people/supporters?

For example, would they accept that both of the following statements are true?

1. "Trans-women are women".
2. "Trans-women are men".

No idea, as far as I can tell they're all over the shop.

 

[Roby]

No I know what a male and female look like visually.

Really? What determines this?

 

[owen87]

You people are just needlessly complicating things. For what gain, I'll never know
I guess I'm not woke enough. Thankfully I live in the real world

Who knew using correct terminology to discuss something is making it complicated.

I guess in the real world when you ask for a pint of beer but get a pot of cider you'd be pretty comfortable that correct terminology matters though.

 

[burge13]

Who knew using correct terminology to discuss something is making it complicated.

I guess in the real world when you ask for a pint of beer but get a pot of cider you'd be pretty comfortable that correct terminology matters though.

When people constantly move goalposts to be progressive is there ever 'correct terminology'?

There'll be 486 genders tomorrow and 490 the day after. Who can be bothered keeping up just to appease people who should be receiving help, not being pandered too

Also, terrible comparison. Though those of us in the real world expect as much from the lunatics