Apple Isle Showdown: Tas Govt threatens to end Hawks, North deals if no plan for 19th side

[speedpeck23]

What was the point of the Colin Carter review if they're not going to listen to him?? By demanding a stadium the AFL are just giving themselves an easy out.

The Carter Report states that a "Stadium Strategy" is necessary and that the onus is on the Tas Govt to provide that.....as is the case with all other states.
The implication in the report is that the same level of facilities should be provided for clubs, players, and the supporters as it is in the other capital cities.
This requirement reflects the estimate of what it will take to achieve the necessary income through sponsorship, attendances, other uses for the stadium, ability to retain players at an elite training venue etc.

 

[madmug]

The Carter Report states that a "Stadium Strategy" is necessary and that the onus is on the Tas Govt to provide that.....as is the case with all other states.
The implication in the report is that the same level of facilities should be provided for clubs, players, and the supporters as it is in the other capital cities.
This requirement reflects the estimate of what it will take to achieve the necessary income through sponsorship, attendances, other uses for the stadium, ability to retain players at an elite training venue etc.

Utas can be easily upgraded as a lot of it is tin shed & needs a make over anyway. 30k would easily be accommodated

Apart from the access problem, most of Bellerive is good quality. Afl standard changerooms, indoor warm up facility good corporate facilities. Its a test match standard so its not a crap set up. The north & east crappy sides can be built on & over the hill to increase seated/covered areas. 27k is possible. Again getting in & out needs some thought.

$750mill at Regatta point is more in the realm of a pipe dream at the moment.

If some city stadium is decided on, they can upgrade Utas now & put up with Bellerive for now.

If a team is granted for say 2026, then plan for a stadium after that, say 2030. They can design it before then to shut GC & Swans presidents up, & by the 2030 build, economic conditions should have improved to make it more possible.

It can't be used to refuse a licence. It should be about finances & support, not some made up reason that is simply not justifiable.

 

[speedpeck23]

Utas can be easily upgraded as a lot of it is tin shed & needs a make over anyway. 30k would easily be accommodated

Apart from the access problem, most of Bellerive is good quality. Afl standard changerooms, indoor warm up facility good corporate facilities. Its a test match standard so its not a crap set up. The north & east crappy sides can be built on & over the hill to increase seated/covered areas. 27k is possible. Again getting in & out needs some thought.

$750mill at Regatta point is more in the realm of a pipe dream at the moment.

If some city stadium is decided on, they can upgrade Utas now & put up with Bellerive for now.

If a team is granted for say 2026, then plan for a stadium after that, say 2030. They can design it before then to shut GC & Swans presidents up, & by the 2030 build, economic conditions should have improved to make it more possible.

It can't be used to refuse a licence. It should be about finances & support, not some made up reason that is simply not justifiable.

I agree with you in general footy terms re the grounds but the AFL are pressing the Tassie State Govt to have the venues in Tassie comparable to MCG/Marvel Stadium/Optus Stadium Perth /Adelaide Oval...immediate proximity to city, ability to accommodate corporates and their sponsorship, premium seating/bars/restaurants for supporters, ability to use the facility for other sport and entertainment....concerts etc...

They want the Theatre goer supporter to be able to fly in, fly out , .maximise there experience in Hobart with footy and whatever else is marketable in Tassie and pay big bucks to do it.

The Tassie Team has to be able to compete with the likes of Collingwood, Richmond, West Coast etc both on and off the field. Without that level of investment neither the Tas Govt or the AFL may get a sufficient financial return to financially support a stand alone Tassie Team.

The Carter report economically puts the "Joint Venture" option as the best option for the above reason....the club would be able to market itself better with access to "home" games at Marvel or MCG. I totally understand that a lot of Tassie fans would see this as a sell-out...and not a real Tassie team anyway.

As a stand alone team the Tassie Team will have a much better chance of competing on and off the field if they have comparable facilities to all other AFL clubs.

 

[madmug]

I agree with you in general footy terms re the grounds but the AFL are pressing the Tassie State Govt to have the venues in Tassie comparable to MCG/Marvel Stadium/Optus Stadium Perth /Adelaide Oval...immediate proximity to city, ability to accommodate corporates and their sponsorship, premium seating/bars/restaurants for supporters, ability to use the facility for other sport and entertainment....concerts etc...

They want the Theatre goer supporter to be able to fly in, fly out , .maximise there experience in Hobart with footy and whatever else is marketable in Tassie and pay big bucks to do it.

The Tassie Team has to be able to compete with the likes of Collingwood, Richmond, West Coast etc both on and off the field. Without that level of investment neither the Tas Govt or the AFL may get a sufficient financial return to financially support a stand alone Tassie Team.

The Carter report economically puts the "Joint Venture" option as the best option for the above reason....the club would be able to market itself better with access to "home" games at Marvel or MCG. I totally understand that a lot of Tassie fans would see this as a sell-out...and not a real Tassie team anyway.

As a stand alone team the Tassie Team will have a much better chance of competing on and off the field if they have comparable facilities to all other AFL clubs.

Metricon is a long way from anywhere but that doesn't bother anyone. Same for Sydney Showgrounds for GWS.

Bellerive is about 7km from Hobart waterfront, less so by ferry.

Bellerive as said, has quality corporate stuff already. All of which can be increased for a lot less than $750mill.

Yes I'd love a new stadium but to link it to getting a team is pure AFL BS/bastardry

 

[Rob]

Utas can be easily upgraded as a lot of it is tin shed & needs a make over anyway. 30k would easily be accommodated

Apart from the access problem, most of Bellerive is good quality. Afl standard changerooms, indoor warm up facility good corporate facilities. Its a test match standard so its not a crap set up.

I'd suggest it's the corporate facilities and premium seating areas that are probably lacking. Just looking at the 2 newest stands, both seem to be entirely just seats. No boxes, no special areas, really nothing you can sell for premium prices.

I know there's some corporate facilities on the other side, but most of it is in a poor viewing position and (take this as someone that's never been in them) it looks old and out of date.

York Park has virtually no corporate facilities. It's grossly inadequate, although the problem with too many games in Launceston is the lack of corporate presence in the first place. No point having 50 10-seat corporate boxes if no-one is going to buy them.

If you compare it to Metricon (which is probably the bare minimum), there are loads of high level viewing areas that you can sell for huge dollars. Best seats in the house too.

This stuff really matters to an AFL club, because it's where the big dollars that can be generated. A lot of people hugely underestimate the importance of match day revenue, and in particular the importance of premium level seats. $1000 season tickets, $3000 per person coterie groups, $10,000 per seat corporate boxes. You might sell 30,000 GA memberships at $150 a pop and that's great, but there's not a lot of profit there. It probably costs $50 per membership just in admin.

That's what I reckon Gil is on about. If yo want a long term viable club, you need to be able to generate cash from the stadium, and basic memberships won't cut it. It's not about capacity, it's about quality.

 

[madmug]

I'd suggest it's the corporate facilities and premium seating areas that are probably lacking. Just looking at the 2 newest stands, both seem to be entirely just seats. No boxes, no special areas, really nothing you can sell for premium prices.

I know there's some corporate facilities on the other side, but most of it is in a poor viewing position and (take this as someone that's never been in them) it looks old and out of date.

York Park has virtually no corporate facilities. It's grossly inadequate, although the problem with too many games in Launceston is the lack of corporate presence in the first place. No point having 50 10-seat corporate boxes if no-one is going to buy them.

If you compare it to Metricon (which is probably the bare minimum), there are loads of high level viewing areas that you can sell for huge dollars. Best seats in the house too.

This stuff really matters to an AFL club, because it's where the big dollars that can be generated. A lot of people hugely underestimate the importance of match day revenue, and in particular the importance of premium level seats. $1000 season tickets, $3000 per person coterie groups, $10,000 per seat corporate boxes. You might sell 30,000 GA memberships at $150 a pop and that's great, but there's not a lot of profit there. It probably costs $50 per membership just in admin.

That's what I reckon Gil is on about. If yo want a long term viable club, you need to be able to generate cash from the stadium, and basic memberships won't cut it. It's not about capacity, it's about quality.

Some corporate boxes on the right of the picture you posted. They use them for Tests ODI & T20 games. Also 2 large function/viewing areas at Bellerive.

As said, any amount needed can be added to both grounds in any sort of redevelopment.

One doesn't necessarily need a new stadium for that. Does one????

 

[Rob]

Some corporate boxes on the right of the picture you posted. They use them for Tests ODI & T20 games. Also 2 large function/viewing areas at Bellerive.

As said, any amount needed can be added to both grounds in any sort of redevelopment.

One doesn't necessarily need a new stadium for that. Does one????

Look, need can be a very subjective word. It certainly needs a massive overhaul. Ultimately the question is can the stadium provide the revenue streams needed to sustain an AFL club? At the moment, the answer is categorically no. And that's not because of the capacity, it's because it won't get the corporate and high value seating revenue because the facilities simply don't exist.

TBH, I can see the argument about a new stadium. The big problem is the Ricky Ponting Stand. It's not that it's not a nice stand, far from it. But it's just plain seats (with a function centre at the back), and you need something like at Metricon in that spot. It's prime real estate and any team based there can't monetise it anywhere near enough. So if you have to demolish that stand, you may as well just build the whole thing somewhere else given the whole northern end would probably need to be totally redone as well.

 

[madmug]

Look, need can be a very subjective word. It certainly needs a massive overhaul. Ultimately the question is can the stadium provide the revenue streams needed to sustain an AFL club? At the moment, the answer is categorically no. And that's not because of the capacity, it's because it won't get the corporate and high value seating revenue because the facilities simply don't exist.

TBH, I can see the argument about a new stadium. The big problem is the Ricky Ponting Stand. It's not that it's not a nice stand, far from it. But it's just plain seats (with a function centre at the back), and you need something like at Metricon in that spot. It's prime real estate and any team based there can't monetise it anywhere near enough. So if you have to demolish that stand, you may as well just build the whole thing somewhere else given the whole northern end would probably need to be totally redone as well.

I think its an excellent stand. 'Plain' seats? I dont know anywhere that has a grandstand full of lounge chairs.

The hill side can be built over with lounge seats, corporate suites etc The little North stand needs building over to ease the wind influence.

The cheapest build would be to redevelop KGV, with or without a roof.

MacPoint would be great, but what sort of Cost/Benefit analysis would justify the cost?

Townsville's NQ stadium cost about $250mil, all State & Fed money in a contested political area.

What hope $750mil for an Independent seat in Hobart?

 

[Rob]

I think its an excellent stand. 'Plain' seats? I dont know anywhere that has a grandstand full of lounge chairs.

The hill side can be built over with lounge seats, corporate suites etc The little North stand needs building over to ease the wind influence.

The cheapest build would be to redevelop KGV, with or without a roof.

MacPoint would be great, but what sort of Cost/Benefit analysis would justify the cost?

Townsville's NQ stadium cost about $250mil, all State & Fed money in a contested political area.

What hope $750mil for an Independent seat in Hobart?

I'm not suggesting $750m would be necessary. A ground similar to Metricon would be fine IMO. But I'll guarantee you that the AFLs problem with Bellerive as it stands is that it's hard to monetise. Which makes it hard to achieve viability long term.

 

[madmug]

I'm not suggesting $750m would be necessary. A ground similar to Metricon would be fine IMO. But I'll guarantee you that the AFLs problem with Bellerive as it stands is that it's hard to monetise. Which makes it hard to achieve viability long term.

I don't know how many times one can say this, & it may surprise the AFL & others, but both Utas & Bellerive can be upgraded. WOW!!!

Utas is mainly a tin shed so its badly needed anyway.

Bellerive is a better quality facility built for International cricket, it has well appointed indoor facilities. It is located in a nice waterside village style area, albeit a stupid place for a stadium.

Now as much as I railed against developing Bellerive, for the obvious reasons, but for 6 games a year I cannot see the economic or political justification to spend 1/2-3/4 $billion anywhere else.

Maybe a business case can be made. I await that with baited breath.

 

[fargothegreat]

U

I don't know how many times one can say this, & it may surprise the AFL & others, but both Utas & Bellerive can be upgraded. WOW!!!

Utas is mainly a tin shed so its badly needed anyway.

Bellerive is a better quality facility built for International cricket, it has well appointed indoor facilities. It is located in a nice waterside village style area, albeit a stupid place for a stadium.

Now as much as I railed against developing Bellerive, for the obvious reasons, but for 6 games a year I cannot see the economic or political justification to spend 1/2-3/4 $billion anywhere else.

Maybe a business case can be made. I await that with baited breath.

Upgrading Bellerive any further is very shortsighted imo. The economic benefits of an inner-city stadium would be far greater too imo.

 

[Mr Taswegian]

U
Upgrading Bellerive any further is very shortsighted imo. The economic benefits of an inner-city stadium would be far greater too imo.

We just need a cheaper proposal though

 

[madmug]

U
Upgrading Bellerive any further is very shortsighted imo. The economic benefits of an inner-city stadium would be far greater too imo.

Metricon isn't inner city, GWS showgrounds isn't inner city, Optus is 5km from the Perth CBD, The SCG is 3.5km from the CBD. Bellerive is 7km from the CBD, <4km by ferry. ( its about 2 stubbies by ferry, more if your thirsty!!)

Why is Hobart singled out in this obtuse, biased, deliberate & stupid way?

Yes I'd love an inner city Stadium, like an Adelaide set up, but who has that, except for Adelaide??

While I think of it, locals drive & park. Visitors staying in the city can walk down to the waterfront, take the ferry over, walk 5 mins to Bellerive. Now that is a nice little trip. Beers at either end, & Beers all the way over& back!!!!

 

[Mr Taswegian]

Metricon isn't inner city, GWS showgrounds isn't inner city, Optus is 5km from the Perth CBD, The SCG is 3.5km from the CBD. Bellerive is 7km from the CBD, <4km by ferry. ( its about 2 stubbies by ferry, more if your thirsty!!)

Why is Hobart singled out in this obtuse, biased, deliberate & stupid way?

Yes I'd love an inner city Stadium, like an Adelaide set up, but who has that, except for Adelaide??

While I think of it, locals drive & park. Visitors staying in the city can walk down to the waterfront, take the ferry over, walk 5 mins to Bellerive. Now that is a nice little trip. Beers at either end, & Beers all the way over& back!!!!

Hobart will be getting a new stadium now so I think we need to start thinking about how it can work. I agree that we can't stick with the current proposal but I have no doubt they will come up with a cheaper more suitable design,I look forward to traveling down to Hobart from Scottsdale for the games.

 

[madmug]

Hobart will be getting a new stadium now so I think we need to start thinking about how it can work. I agree that we can't stick with the current proposal but I have no doubt they will come up with a cheaper more suitable design,I look forward to traveling down to Hobart from Scottsdale for the games.

And we would hop down to Launceston to the expanded & upgraded York Park.

 

[Mr Taswegian]

And we would hop down to Launceston to the expanded & upgraded York Park.

I think they need to arrange special bus services so supporters can travel to and from each location.

 

[Tassieboy]

I don't understand why the team can't be based in Hobart (Bellerive) and make York Park the main 30k seat ground with an alternating 6/5 game split each year. York Park has everything apart from the facilities. Why can't it have the roof? Even thought it's not in the capital games in Launceston will almost certainly see bigger crowds so it doesn't really matter.

Bellerive can be upgraded to a 23-25k boutique ground which would fit within the footprint. Then there can be a long-term plan for a new stadium in Hobart.

 

[Mr Taswegian]

I don't understand why the team can't be based in Hobart (Bellerive) and make York Park the main 30k seat ground with an alternating 6/5 game split each year. York Park has everything apart from the facilities. Why can't it have the roof? Even thought it's not in the capital games in Launceston will almost certainly see bigger crowds so it doesn't really matter.

Bellerive can be upgraded to a 23-25k boutique ground which would fit within the footprint. Then there can be a long-term plan for a new stadium in Hobart.

They already investigated a roof for UTAS stadium and found that it would be way too expensive.

 

[Tassieboy]

They already investigated a roof for UTAS stadium and found that it would be way too expensive.

Probably correct. I also don't really get the roof thing. Yes, it's a bit colder than Melbourne but we already have 8 games a year without a roof.

 

[Rob]

I don't know how many times one can say this, & it may surprise the AFL & others, but both Utas & Bellerive can be upgraded. WOW!!!

Utas is mainly a tin shed so its badly needed anyway.

Bellerive is a better quality facility built for International cricket, it has well appointed indoor facilities. It is located in a nice waterside village style area, albeit a stupid place for a stadium.

Now as much as I railed against developing Bellerive, for the obvious reasons, but for 6 games a year I cannot see the economic or political justification to spend 1/2-3/4 $billion anywhere else.

Maybe a business case can be made. I await that with baited breath.

I do agree with you that building a ridiculously expensive new stadium for 6 games a year is economic madness.

But why does it have to be a billion dollars though? Like I said, a Metricon clone would be fine. Lots of good seats and enough premium areas to make decent coin.

I'm not as bullish about an inner city stadium as others are. Inner city grounds are good in big cities because you can lever off the train network which is built around getting people to and from the city. Hobart has no rail system and will not he getting one for at least a couple of decades.

 

[madmug]

I do agree with you that building a ridiculously expensive new stadium for 6 games a year is economic madness.

But why does it have to be a billion dollars though? Like I said, a Metricon clone would be fine. Lots of good seats and enough premium areas to make decent coin.

I'm not as bullish about an inner city stadium as others are. Inner city grounds are good in big cities because you can lever off the train network which is built around getting people to and from the city. Hobart has no rail system and will not he getting one for at least a couple of decades.

Both Utas & Bellerive (or KGV) could quite easily be clones of Metricon. It wouldn't cost much. Metricon has stands on stilts, so it'd be a cheap build.

 

[Mr Taswegian]

Both Utas & Bellerive (or KGV) could quite easily be clones of Metricon. It wouldn't cost much. Metricon has stands on stilts, so it'd be a cheap build.

Does KGV have plenty of parking?

 

[madmug]

Does KGV have plenty of parking?

Much easier access via Brooker Hway North & Southwards. The Bowen bridge easy to go Eastwards.

Parking at Showgrounds, DEC, Elwick Racetrack. lots of parking close by in Glenorchy. Bus mall close. Rail if ever they use it again.

Its the best cheapest option to develop, if needed.

 

[Mr Taswegian]

Much easier access via Brooker Hway North & Southwards. The Bowen bridge easy to go Eastwards.

Parking at Showgrounds, DEC, Elwick Racetrack. lots of parking close by in Glenorchy. Bus mall close. Rail if ever they use it again.

Its the best cheapest option to develop, if needed.

Ok it sounds good, thankyou for that.

 

[Mr Taswegian]

Do people know who the people are involved in the group to deal with the stadium that the AFL announced the other day?