GWS is the AFL's biggest problem - not North, GC, or Tassie

[MelbourneGWS]

Cricket and Australian Rules football make a good fit, especially in the use of common grounds. After all, the key driver for Tom Wills to initiate our code was to keep cricketers fit during the winter months

 

[Coolangatta]

Living in Sydney, I just don't really see GWS being a success. It's noticeable how little coverage or support they get in Sydney and they haven't managed to resonate in a meaningful way yet with Western Sydney. What should worry the AFL is it's been a pretty successful club for a while now, including a granny and still hasn't moved the needle with attendance. There's a world this season where the suns and gws play each other in the GF in front of no one.

Move it to Adelaide Oval then, it'd be a sellout.

 

[speedpeck23]

So am I. That is why change is needed. It is clearly not gaining any traction. Top of the ladder and 8k. That is unheard of.

And I have made many suggestions in the thread. Don’t get my wrong. I want it to work. It just isn’t.

Careful Walshawk. Presumably you weren't at Arden Street 1966 North V Hawthorn 5000 Attendance. 1977 Hawthorn v Geelong Princes Park 11,000...Hawks top of the ladder. Things change....plenty of options open to the AFL and Giants in Sydney.

 

[weewilly]

Very disappointing crowd this week considering last weeks big crowd and good win against the Pies.

If GWS keep on winning and end up in the top 4 as many are suggesting a 12,000 home match average should be expected even if they have to give away freebees to do it.

I'm saying not that it will be easy it clearly won't be as the large western Sydney migrant demographic did not grow up with our game and don't now much about Australian football so it is their kids that have to be concentrated on and be converted starting with Auskick and the school system backed up by junior comps.

The AFL also must concentrate on getting the anti AFL anything Victorian Sydney sports media on side like having the Season Launch this year there and have it every second year in Sydney and also spread it around the other state capitals to prove to those supporters it is a truly national sport and not appear to be favouring everything Melbourne/Victorian all the time.

This is a at least a 20 -25 year program until it will show the type of support that the Sydney Swans have now.

 

[Walshawk]

Careful Walshawk. Presumably you weren't at Arden Street 1966 North V Hawthorn 5000 Attendance. 1977 Hawthorn v Geelong Princes Park 11,000...Hawks top of the ladder. Things change....plenty of options open to the AFL and Giants in Sydney.

Let’s explore some of those options the instead of thinking that the strategy devised in 2009 is ever going to work.

And yes, there is a lesson there. Hawks moved from tiny old Glenferrie to PP in the north which was more modern and twice the size. Their comparable crowds dropped by about 1/3, from 14/15k to 10k. Meanwhile, there were averaging 30k+ for their home games @ Waverley. Why it took them 16 years to move away from Carlton we will never know. They just kept playing there hoping the crowds would come. They didn’t, as the majority of Hawks fans were out east.

Fish where the fish are and all that. Not sure there are many fish in the Giants zone.

I have posted this dozens of times, but the Giants need to cover all of the suburbs west of Sydney, including the inner west where AFL is somewhat popular. They need to be allowed to embrace the suburbs around Henson Park. That these suburbs and somewhere like Bankstown are in the Swans academy and promotional zone is a joke. Bankstown is a western suburb. The Swans have enough. Give some of Sydney to the Giants.

Even in another 10 years the Giants won’t have more than a handful of fans on places like Blacktown, Rooty Hill, Penrith or whatever other faraway NRL heartland suburb that counts as Greater Western Sydney.

 

[The Educator]

Even in another 10 years the Giants won’t have more than a handful of fans on places like Blacktown, Rooty Hill, Penrith or whatever other faraway NRL heartland suburb that counts as Greater Western Sydney.

I would file that under "pure assertion"

 

[Walshawk]

I would file that under "pure assertion"

Good to know.

 

[3207]

Let’s explore some of those options the instead of thinking that the strategy devised in 2009 is ever going to work.

And yes, there is a lesson there. Hawks moved from tiny old Glenferrie to PP in the north which was more modern and twice the size. Their comparable crowds dropped by about 1/3, from 14/15k to 10k. Meanwhile, there were averaging 30k+ for their home games @ Waverley. Why it took them 16 years to move away from Carlton we will never know. They just kept playing there hoping the crowds would come. They didn’t, as the majority of Hawks fans were out east.

Fish where the fish are and all that. Not sure there are many fish in the Giants zone.

I have posted this dozens of times, but the Giants need to cover all of the suburbs west of Sydney, including the inner west where AFL is somewhat popular. They need to be allowed to embrace the suburbs around Henson Park. That these suburbs and somewhere like Bankstown are in the Swans academy and promotional zone is a joke. Bankstown is a western suburb. The Swans have enough. Give some of Sydney to the Giants.

Even in another 10 years the Giants won’t have more than a handful of fans on places like Blacktown, Rooty Hill, Penrith or whatever other faraway NRL heartland suburb that counts as Greater Western Sydney.

I don’t think Bankstown not being in our academy zone is a reason why our crowds are low.

Sharks v Dogs got less than 13,000 Saturday night. And they’ve been around for 57 & 89 years respectively.

Sydney people just don’t go to games in numbers that they do elsewhere in the country.

I held the top tier membership when I lived in Sydney. Went to maybe 4 games. Had the same when I lived on the South Coast, an hour and a half to Canberra, went to 1 game (the snow game)

Now I’m back in Melbourne and a “Ultimate Melbourne Giant” I’m doubtful if I go to any games this year. And I’m one team from Docklands or MCG, so it’s not a distance issue. It’s a I just CBF issue.

 

[Walshawk]

I do t think Bankstown not being in our academy zone is a reason why our crowds are low.

Sharks v Dogs got less than 13,000 Saturday night. And they’ve been around for 57 & 89 years respectively.

Sydney people just don’t go to games in numbers that they do elsewhere in the country.

Obviously, but it is an example of how the Swans stuffed the Giants by keeping half of the suburbs west of Sydney. And the Swans fans don’t have any problem turning up at games.

 

[3207]

Obviously, but it is an example of how the Swans stuffed the Giants by keeping half of the suburbs west of Sydney. And the Swans fans don’t have any problem turning up at games.

Mate boundaries have to be cut off somewhere. If I don’t have an issue with it as a Giants supporter I don’t think you should as a Hawks fan

 

[The Educator]

Mate boundaries have to be cut off somewhere. If I don’t have an issue with it as a Giants supporter I don’t think you should as a Hawks fan

It is just another negative angle re the Giants he has stumbled on

Noting your point of the lower going-to-games behaviour of Sydney-siders, one thing that will likely have a positive impact on attendances at olympic park is the light rail and the metro.

 

[3207]

It is just another negative angle re the Giants he has stumbled on

Noting your point of the lower going-to-games behaviour of Sydney-siders, one thing that will likely have a positive impact on attendances at olympic park is the light rail and the metro.

Apparently there was track work on Saturday and the ground couldn’t be accessed by rail. And then with 50,000 next door for Pink there were no parking spaces available.

Don’t get me wrong, I’d love it if we could average 12,000 throughout the year. I mean we’re at 15,000 now. Hopefully we can sit at that 12,000 mark by the end of the year.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Let’s explore some of those options the instead of thinking that the strategy devised in 2009 is ever going to work.

And yes, there is a lesson there. Hawks moved from tiny old Glenferrie to PP in the north which was more modern and twice the size. Their comparable crowds dropped by about 1/3, from 14/15k to 10k. Meanwhile, there were averaging 30k+ for their home games @ Waverley. Why it took them 16 years to move away from Carlton we will never know. They just kept playing there hoping the crowds would come. They didn’t, as the majority of Hawks fans were out east.

Fish where the fish are and all that. Not sure there are many fish in the Giants zone.

I have posted this dozens of times, but the Giants need to cover all of the suburbs west of Sydney, including the inner west where AFL is somewhat popular. They need to be allowed to embrace the suburbs around Henson Park. That these suburbs and somewhere like Bankstown are in the Swans academy and promotional zone is a joke. Bankstown is a western suburb. The Swans have enough. Give some of Sydney to the Giants.

Even in another 10 years the Giants won’t have more than a handful of fans on places like Blacktown, Rooty Hill, Penrith or whatever other faraway NRL heartland suburb that counts as Greater Western Sydney.

Funnily enough, GWS Women have actually gotten some decent crowds when playing in these inner city locations!

2018 R2: 4,952 @ Drummoyne Oval
2022 S6 R4: 2,683 @ Marrickville (this match was played at 5.10 on a Friday and got a bigger crowd than of around 2k when they were playing in more usual, friendly timeslots at Blacktown over recent seasons). Covid impact too
2022 S6 R7: 1,955 @ Marrickville (GWS were a bad team that were getting hammered, and expected to lose this game comfortably, which they did, crowds were still bigger than Blacktown crowds in 2019-2020 pre Covid era despite AFLW crowds in general dropping off)

Compare to 427 going to the rescheduled Wednesday Night 5.10 game at Blackdown the following week.

S7 R2, only 727 went to the men's home Showground stadium at a bad 11.10am Saturday start.

Subsequently 1,162 went to their next home game @ Marrickville at a similar bad timeslot (12.10pm Sat afternoon).

2022 S7 R8: 2,006 @ Marrickville.

In 2023 their crowds at Marrickville were higher than their Blacktown fans.

I suppose a little bit of the crowd is because the inner west are progressive, greenie types that would see Women's Football as some sort of political identity. But even throwing that aside, the fact is GWS' Women's team were able to consistently attract more home fans outside of their nominal zone (inner west) than their home games at Blacktown and Showground stadium, where they in theory should have developed support over the last decade.

Additionally Pennant Hills which is not really Western Sydney but one of the strongest footy clubs in Sydney really should have been force fed as part of the GWS program, but it remains part of the Sydney zone.

 

[3207]

Funnily enough, GWS Women have actually gotten some decent crowds when playing in these inner city locations!

2018 R2: 4,952 @ Drummoyne Oval
2022 S6 R4: 2,683 @ Marrickville (this match was played at 5.10 on a Friday and got a bigger crowd than of around 2k when they were playing in more usual, friendly timeslots at Blacktown over recent seasons). Covid impact too
2022 S6 R7: 1,955 @ Marrickville (GWS were a bad team that were getting hammered, and expected to lose this game comfortably, which they did, crowds were still bigger than Blacktown crowds in 2019-2020 pre Covid era despite AFLW crowds in general dropping off)

Compare to 427 going to the rescheduled Wednesday Night 5.10 game at Blackdown the following week.

S7 R2, only 727 went to the men's home Showground stadium at a bad 11.10am Saturday start.

Subsequently 1,162 went to their next home game @ Marrickville at a similar bad timeslot (12.10pm Sat afternoon).

2022 S7 R8: 2,006 @ Marrickville.

In 2023 their crowds at Marrickville were higher than their Blacktown fans.

I suppose a little bit of the crowd is because the inner west are progressive, greenie types that would see Women's Football as some sort of political identity. But even throwing that aside, the fact is GWS' Women's team were able to consistently attract more home fans outside of their nominal zone (inner west) than their home games at Blacktown and Showground stadium, where they in theory should have developed support over the last decade.

Additionally Pennant Hills which is not really Western Sydney but one of the strongest footy clubs in Sydney really should have been force fed as part of the GWS program, but it remains part of the Sydney zone.

At risk of being carded; that’s because there is a far larger number of lesbians in Marrickville and Newtown than Blacktown.

Not because Giants AFL fans would prefer to watch games there. It suits the demographic for the AFLW better. Thats why they do it.

 

[Bjo187]

Funnily enough, GWS Women have actually gotten some decent crowds when playing in these inner city locations!

2018 R2: 4,952 @ Drummoyne Oval
2022 S6 R4: 2,683 @ Marrickville (this match was played at 5.10 on a Friday and got a bigger crowd than of around 2k when they were playing in more usual, friendly timeslots at Blacktown over recent seasons). Covid impact too
2022 S6 R7: 1,955 @ Marrickville (GWS were a bad team that were getting hammered, and expected to lose this game comfortably, which they did, crowds were still bigger than Blacktown crowds in 2019-2020 pre Covid era despite AFLW crowds in general dropping off)

Compare to 427 going to the rescheduled Wednesday Night 5.10 game at Blackdown the following week.

S7 R2, only 727 went to the men's home Showground stadium at a bad 11.10am Saturday start.

Subsequently 1,162 went to their next home game @ Marrickville at a similar bad timeslot (12.10pm Sat afternoon).

2022 S7 R8: 2,006 @ Marrickville.

In 2023 their crowds at Marrickville were higher than their Blacktown fans.

I suppose a little bit of the crowd is because the inner west are progressive, greenie types that would see Women's Football as some sort of political identity. But even throwing that aside, the fact is GWS' Women's team were able to consistently attract more home fans outside of their nominal zone (inner west) than their home games at Blacktown and Showground stadium, where they in theory should have developed support over the last decade.

Additionally Pennant Hills which is not really Western Sydney but one of the strongest footy clubs in Sydney really should have been force fed as part of the GWS program, but it remains part of the Sydney zone.

There are some easy fans to collect around Henson park there I agree. I think you need to build that initial base off easy kills in footy friendly areas. Then it's easier to pick up truly west fans in bigger numbers thereafter, coz they see the club with an already decent following.

 

[Walshawk]

At risk of being carded; that’s because there is a far larger number of lesbians in Marrickville and Newtown than Blacktown.

Not because Giants AFL fans would prefer to watch games there. It suits the demographic for the AFLW better. Thats why they do it.

Long bow.

Looking photos of crowds from those games, the fans were mainly families. Not sure the lesbian factor would more than a few dozen.

 

[3207]

Long bow.

Looking photos of crowds from those games, the fans were mainly families. Not sure the lesbian factor would more than a few dozen.

I’d like to see your three favourite pictures from these games as reference

 

[Walshawk]

I’d like to see your three favourite pictures from these games as reference

Here’s one. Heals if kids despite the rain. Google is your friend.

 

[3207]

Here’s one. Heals if kids despite the rain. Google is your friend.
View attachment 1931685

I asked for your favourite 3.

 

[Aussie in exile]

8k today. Horrible crowd.

Looked less

 

[3207]

Looked less

Always does. The problem with only having cameras on one side of the ground (which is the side of the ground where all the members sit)

 

[The Educator]

Always does. The problem with only having cameras on one side of the ground (which is the side of the ground where all the members sit)

Aussie in exile is a league fan so is quite familiar with low and inflated crowd numbers

 

[3207]

Aussie in exile is a league fan so is quite familiar with low and inflated crowd numbers

Same here.

The camera view at Spotless always makes the crowd look less as the cameras look straight at the side of the ground that gets filled up last.

 

[speedpeck23]

Let’s explore some of those options the instead of thinking that the strategy devised in 2009 is ever going to work.

And yes, there is a lesson there. Hawks moved from tiny old Glenferrie to PP in the north which was more modern and twice the size. Their comparable crowds dropped by about 1/3, from 14/15k to 10k. Meanwhile, there were averaging 30k+ for their home games @ Waverley. Why it took them 16 years to move away from Carlton we will never know. They just kept playing there hoping the crowds would come. They didn’t, as the majority of Hawks fans were out east.

Fish where the fish are and all that. Not sure there are many fish in the Giants zone.

I have posted this dozens of times, but the Giants need to cover all of the suburbs west of Sydney, including the inner west where AFL is somewhat popular. They need to be allowed to embrace the suburbs around Henson Park. That these suburbs and somewhere like Bankstown are in the Swans academy and promotional zone is a joke. Bankstown is a western suburb. The Swans have enough. Give some of Sydney to the Giants.

Even in another 10 years the Giants won’t have more than a handful of fans on places like Blacktown, Rooty Hill, Penrith or whatever other faraway NRL heartland suburb that counts as Greater Western Sydney.

I agree the whole Giants strategy needs constant re-assessment. Don't forget though that the Giants coming into the AFL has significantly helped the Swans.

The Swans from 2000 were playing 8 matches SCG, 3 at Homebush (AFL had a mix of games in Canberra). Since 2012 the Swans have had 11 home games at the SCG and 1 game at Homebush....and their membership reflects this. I don't disagree with your point about inner west Sydney. Maybe the Giants should play a couple of home games there and see how the crowds are.

I still think the AFL should keep a critical presence in G. Western Sydney and Canberra. 3 home grounds may seem clunky but in my view the Giants and AFL need to be promoted everywhere as much as possible in NSW. Being fixtured to play North was not a great promotional move but a win is a win to the fans.

Re the Hawks, Princes Park was always awkward for most Hawk fans to get to and the irony was that the Hawks being a top side the opposition didn't want to go either as their team would often get hammered. ? Maybe the Giants are having the same problem ??

 

[Coolangatta]

I agree the whole Giants strategy needs constant re-assessment. Don't forget though that the Giants coming into the AFL has significantly helped the Swans.

The Swans from 2000 were playing 8 matches SCG, 3 at Homebush (AFL had a mix of games in Canberra). Since 2012 the Swans have had 11 home games at the SCG and 1 game at Homebush....and their membership reflects this. I don't disagree with your point about inner west Sydney. Maybe the Giants should play a couple of home games there and see how the crowds are.

I still think the AFL should keep a critical presence in G. Western Sydney and Canberra. 3 home grounds may seem clunky but in my view the Giants and AFL need to be promoted everywhere as much as possible in NSW. Being fixtured to play North was not a great promotional move but a win is a win to the fans.

Re the Hawks, Princes Park was always awkward for most Hawk fans to get to and the irony was that the Hawks being a top side the opposition didn't want to go either as their team would often get hammered. ? Maybe the Giants are having the same problem ??

Wish I had that in my rebuttal arsenal when I was arguing with some of the Reddit mob about whether it'd make a difference if the Giants played all their games in Sydney or not. I think it would, they don't, but many of the same mob who say that are the ones who didn't want Gold Coast or Western Sydney in the first place because the more expansion there is, the less it becomes the VFL of old that they dearly miss. The Vic bias is very real. I'm almost certain the Giants would benefit from getting out of Canberra. If I'm wrong then the AFL is just gonna have to prop them up like they do the weakest Vic clubs, it's nothing new for them.