Play Nice Hawthorn culture and Fagan

[dlanod]

This is going to be a very touchy subject.

There will be a very broad range of opinions about the correct way to handle this.

I'll remind everyone to post respectfully at this time - sniping at each other is not going to help.

Any continued pointless back and forth will get a day or more to cool off. If you want to avoid this fate, let it go.

 

[Saucery]

Havent read the Hawks board much and obviously no one has responded to my previous post, but is the expectation that Hawthorn will actually be punished or is it only reserved for the likes of us / North any other clubs whose clubs may get caught up in this?

No the clubs involved are collateral damage, the Hawthorn 3 will get strung up sadly. Gil will sacrifice anyone to protect his legacy.

 

[martinson]

I get the feeling Fages and Clarkson are going to say none of this ever happened. Looking beyond what is fairly clear in their press releases.

So get the popcorn out.

 

[Gadzorks]

As much as I don't want it to be the case, most football clubs are s**t places. Especially at the AFL level. They are not social service clubs. Their aim is to win matches. The current AFL model chews through young kids at an alarming rate. On average, a draftee can expect about 20 games. The sacrifices these kids, whether indigenous or not, are asked to make for that measly return is totally disproportionate.

We are part of the problem. We lionise our heroes and tacitly accept the concomitant attrition of young players as being "part of the game". We tend to think of it as "the price to be paid". Young indigenous kids are especially vulnerable, but they aren't the only casualties. It's important thet they are protected, and in the process I hope that all young, aspiring AFL "dreamers" will be looked after.

Brilliantly said

 

[martinson]

Brilliantly said

If you think young footy players are poorly treated try young corporate lawyers. Or young aspiring surgeons who after 6 or 7 years of intensive study then work their clacker off with 70 hour weeks and double shifts for many years more before they can get a foot in the door. And mostly they're helping people.

If someone chooses footy they're not saving the world ,they just want to play footy. It's competitive and a bit ruthless sure ,but if they don't make it they've got plenty of time to find another profession. Playing footy isn't anywhere near as tough as many other jobs if you want to be successful.

 

[BrainOfMorbius]

I wonder what proportion of young corporate lawyers and aspiring surgeons are indigenous kids from the bush with limited prospects outside of their chosen profession

 

[Sausages]

I wonder what proportion of young corporate lawyers and aspiring surgeons are indigenous kids from the bush with limited prospects outside of their chosen profession

Permit me, but you realise the last half of your statement reinforces the same negative stereotypes we need to avoid?

Unless those facts (the bush and limited prospects) have been established, and I am unaware.

 

[Thomasno]

If you think young footy players are poorly treated try young corporate lawyers. Or young aspiring surgeons who after 6 or 7 years of intensive study then work their clacker off with 70 hour weeks and double shifts for many years more before they can get a foot in the door. And mostly they're helping people.

If someone chooses footy they're not saving the world ,they just want to play footy. It's competitive and a bit ruthless sure ,but if they don't make it they've got plenty of time to find another profession. Playing footy isn't anywhere near as tough as many other jobs if you want to be successful.

Amen to that. Speaking from the medical side, I guarantee nobody outside of the medical field realises just how bad it is. As you said for surgery, depending on the field people will spend upwards of 5-6 years working 60-70 hour weeks including nights etc before even getting on to a training program. Not just surgery either, even as a med reg at a busy hospital you’d be lucky to get out with less than 2 hours overtime every day. I’ve known senior registrars that, when they’re on call, won’t even bother going home overnight because the phone literally does not stop ringing.

So yeah, being a footy player would be a cakewalk if I had that option.

 

[Saucery]

Permit me, but you realise the last half of your statement reinforces the same negative stereotypes we need to avoid?

Unless those facts (the bush and limited prospects) have been established, and I am unaware.

You seem to lack the sagacity to understand the difference between equality and equity.

They are totally different things, look it up.

 

[Sausages]

You seem to lack the sagacity to understand the difference between equality and equity.

They are totally different things, look it up.

Ignoring the irrelevant, in response I will say I simply asked as to where the facts relating to the locality of the draftees is located in the official reporting thus far?

Isn't that what is meant by terminology such as "the bush" and "limited opportunity" insofar as they relate to a geographical location?

I am unaware, it's not a complex issue.

 

[western royboy]

No the clubs involved are collateral damage, the Hawthorn 3 will get strung up sadly. Gil will sacrifice anyone to protect his legacy.

The last sentence is guaranteed

 

[McIvor]

No the clubs involved are collateral damage, the Hawthorn 3 will get strung up sadly. Gil will sacrifice anyone to protect his legacy.

So Hawthorn will not suffer draft sanctions, reduced salary cap, reduced soft cap etc.?

Seems unfair that they just get learnings, the coaches and players can get on with season 2023 and other than the club being dragged through the mud which might mean they lose the odd sponsor and its busines as usual.

Whereas Brisbane and North are left with uncertainty, unable to properly plan for 2023 both on-field and to their respective lists, not to mention cop the se wrath of sposnors probably staying away all b/c of guilt by association.

Just seems bitterly unfair. I hope, no want, Hawthorn, if the stories of these failings by the club are proven that they are penalised in some serious capacity. For them not to be penalised is egregious - think thats the word.

 

[martinson]

Amen to that. Speaking from the medical side, I guarantee nobody outside of the medical field realises just how bad it is. As you said for surgery, depending on the field people will spend upwards of 5-6 years working 60-70 hour weeks including nights etc before even getting on to a training program. Not just surgery either, even as a med reg at a busy hospital you’d be lucky to get out with less than 2 hours overtime every day. I’ve known senior registrars that, when they’re on call, won’t even bother going home overnight because the phone literally does not stop ringing.

So yeah, being a footy player would be a cakewalk if I had that option.

Al the medicos I know , nurses , many of them not earning huge wages have been under enormous stress through this pandemic, overworked ,abused, taking the wrap for a system that is cratering beneath them . And that's in this country. In the UK and Europe it's pandemonium.

So when people say young footy players have a tough life give me a break. I think Oscar summed it up best when asked how hard it was to get where he has and he said something along the lines that it's awesome , I get up every day ,play some footy , get looked after ,I love it.

Everything in life is relative . The rewards for being a successful AFL player are exceptional if you're good enough. If you don't make it you get the chance to set up life changing contacts if you're smart enough. If you're not good enough and don't have the personality, aptitude, education whatever else to do any of that it's not up to the industry to look after you if you played a few games. You've probably been on an exceptional wage for your age for the time you're there . You're better positioned in life than you would've been without it.

Sorry for the rant but organisations offer people opportunity. Not all have the capacity to take it , it's up to the organisation to look after them while they're there and set them up or suggest options when they leave. The AFL in general does this from anything I've observed.

 

[martinson]

The last sentence is guaranteed

He's already manouvering in that mealy mouthed missive he gave on 360.

I feel sorry for anyone caught up in this. It's his last year. It'll be take no prisoners with whatever the outcome is.

 

[Saucery]

So Hawthorn will not suffer draft sanctions, reduced salary cap, reduced soft cap etc.?

Seems unfair that they just get learnings, the coaches and players can get on with season 2023 and other than the club being dragged through the mud which might mean they lose the odd sponsor and its busines as usual.

Whereas Brisbane and North are left with uncertainty, unable to properly plan for 2023 both on-field and to their respective lists, not to mention cop the se wrath of sposnors probably staying away all b/c of guilt by association.

Just seems bitterly unfair. I hope, no want, Hawthorn, if the stories of these failings by the club are proven that they are penalised in some serious capacity. For them not to be penalised is egregious - think thats the word.

Indeed, try telling that to the British, who have wright evil upon many lands yet claim their motives and actions were for gods good grace.

 

[Lions time]

Not rolling over.


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[McIvor]

Indeed, try telling that to the British, who have wright evil upon many lands yet claim their motives and actions were for gods good grace.

Sorry, I dont know what any of that means in relation to my post.

 

[Tassie4ever]

Just my take, but guess who will be missing out in future recruitment priorities. It's called unintended consequences.

 

[LionsMaw]

Is a dead Kennedy coming into AFL house to denounce Cripps and talk of Neale as the righteous winner?


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Wut? Is this an attempt to be funny/clever?

Cos you've failed

 

[Saucery]

Sorry, I dont know what any of that means in relation to my post.

Yes I need to go to bed, thanks big Mc.

 

[martinson]

Not rolling over.


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We can see the big issue with this inquiry is that any high profile person with plenty to say about the endemic issues of racism is going to try to get their foot in the door and make out they're at the forefront of social change.

This could go on for a long time. The legals in this are going to be astronomical.

And I'll put money down now that nothing will be resolved.

It's political. Parliamentarians will talk about it.

In that interview even Gil who wants to please everybody can see the Sword of Damocles over his head. He can't spin this .

 

[western royboy]

So Hawthorn will not suffer draft sanctions, reduced salary cap, reduced soft cap etc.?

Seems unfair that they just get learnings, the coaches and players can get on with season 2023 and other than the club being dragged through the mud which might mean they lose the odd sponsor and its busines as usual.

Whereas Brisbane and North are left with uncertainty, unable to properly plan for 2023 both on-field and to their respective lists, not to mention cop the se wrath of sposnors probably staying away all b/c of guilt by association.

Just seems bitterly unfair. I hope, no want, Hawthorn, if the stories of these failings by the club are proven that they are penalised in some serious capacity. For them not to be penalised is egregious - think thats the word.

The allegations are very serious…more serious than the Essendon situation (which ultimately no one knows what happened) but the fallout is well known, Essendon still hasn’t fully dealt with it.

The AFL is walking a political and ethical tightrope here. If we look at how they handled the Essendon saga it will be similar, lots of big statements but ultimately nothing concrete. You will not and cannot hope to make everyone happy here that is not possible, some party(s) are going to come out of this aggrieved regardless of the findings and I would suggest civil actions will result regardless.

None of this will be quick, parties are lawyering up already and from my experience that makes it a guaranteed shit show of the highest order and ensures it gets drawn out - Lawyers go on holiday in January- can it be done by then? Maybe

What does it mean?

For us we have to decide how long we can wait with Fagan out of the system - Trade Week has effectively started - he would normally be crucial moreso than at Draft Time - uncertainty can kill an off season - we need to be decisive based upon the likely timeframes - Fagan cannot be out of the system for 3 months

For North this is catastrophic - this could end them - the goodwill of Clarkson’s appointment has been pissed up against the wall and none of it is their fault - they face the same decision we do

Hawthorn will be dealt with very harshly if these allegations or aspects of them are proven, however they’ve probably got the least to lose but if you use Essendon as an example the fallout could last a decade.

Every individual in the Essendon saga has had huge issues since…despite nothing really been proven.

As a guide, it’s very ****ing scary for everyone involved

 

[Lions time]

We can see the big issue with this inquiry is that any high profile person with plenty to say about the endemic issues of racism is going to try to get their foot in the door and make out they're at the forefront of social change.

This could go on for a long time. The legals in this are going to be astronomical.

And I'll put money down now that nothing will be resolved.

It's political. Parliamentarians will talk about it.

In that interview even Gil who wants to please everybody can see the Sword of Damocles over his head. He can't spin this .

This means that each parties account will get heard with fair parameters in place for both . If not it will go to court. I think it will either way because of the reputational damage already caused.


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[BangyBangy]

This means that each parties account will get heard with fair parameters in place for both . If not it will go to court. I think it will either way because of the reputational damage already caused.


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I can't see how this isn't going to court. Gonna be a big shitshow all through 2023. Really hope I'm wrong.

 

[martinson]

The allegations are very serious…more serious than the Essendon situation (which ultimately no one knows what happened) but the fallout is well known, Essendon still hasn’t fully dealt with it.

The AFL is walking a political and ethical tightrope here. If we look at how they handled the Essendon saga it will be similar, lots of big statements but ultimately nothing concrete. You will not and cannot hope to make everyone happy here that is not possible, some party(s) are going to come out of this aggrieved regardless of the findings and I would suggest civil actions will result regardless.

None of this will be quick, parties are lawyering up already and from my experience that makes it a guaranteed s**t show of the highest order and ensures it gets drawn out - Lawyers go on holiday in January- can it be done by then? Maybe

What does it mean?

For us we have to decide how long we can wait with Fagan out of the system - Trade Week has effectively started - he would normally be crucial moreso than at Draft Time - uncertainty can kill an off season - we need to be decisive based upon the likely timeframes - Fagan cannot be out of the system for 3 months

For North this is catastrophic - this could end them - the goodwill of Clarkson’s appointment has been pissed up against the wall and none of it is their fault - they face the same decision we do

Hawthorn will be dealt with very harshly if these allegations or aspects of them are proven, however they’ve probably got the least to lose but if you use Essendon as an example the fallout could last a decade.

Every individual in the Essendon saga has had huge issues since…despite nothing really been proven.

As a guide, it’s very ******* scary for everyone involved

They can't bury this.

It's an issue that engenders significant interest way beyond the AFL. Every man in the street will have an opinion and that really matters to politicians.

Whether we ever get to the 'truth' of the matter is now conjectural.

 

[martinson]

I can't see how this isn't going to court. Gonna be a big shitshow all through 2023. Really hope I'm wrong.

When have you ever been wrong Bangy ?

On the money again.